Regeneration in the OT

[Truthfrees]

i recently learned that it may be a calvinist doctrine that OT believers were regenerated looking forward to the cross.

i like that idea and would like to hear more about it and how it works

i was going to post this in the calvinist forum so that there would be no debate only information shared but couldn't find it so am posting it here

QUESTIONS
1. did the OT believers know about Jesus or just there would be a Savior sent by God
2. were they regenerated based on Messiah or based on their love and acceptance of God
3. did they get the same filling of the Holy Spirit we do
4. was the OT written by regenerated believers
5. today looking back who in the OT is considered regenerated - any OT believer who loved God

 

[Winken]

"Truthfrees, post: 71607022, member: 376902"

QUESTIONS
1. did the OT believers know about Jesus or just there would be a Savior sent by God. The OT "believers" were a people group (Jews) who were promised a Messiah who would restore them (to the Abrahamic Covenant).
2. were they regenerated based on Messiah or based on their love and acceptance of God. They were regenerated IF they, as a people group, acknowledged Jesus as the promised Messiah.
3. did they get the same filling of the Holy Spirit we do. No. It was group restoration.
4. was the OT written by regenerated believers. There were no Christian Believers then. The OT was written by those summoned by God to write it. They were "called."
5. today looking back who in the OT is considered regenerated - any OT believer who loved God. No. The Jews were "regenerated" as a people group, not as individuals.

 

[Tree of Life]

1. did the OT believers know about Jesus or just there would be a Savior sent by God

From earliest times God's people had hope for a future savior. The first promise of the gospel comes in Genesis 3:15.

2. were they regenerated based on Messiah or based on their love and acceptance of God

Regeneration has always been a free gift of God.

3. did they get the same filling of the Holy Spirit we do

Theirs was not as full as ours. Joel 2.

4. was the OT written by regenerated believers

Certainly most of it was. Solomon's stuff is perhaps an open question. Either way it is the word of God.

5. today looking back who in the OT is considered regenerated - any OT believer who loved God

Anyone in the OT era who was truly saved was also regenerate.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Regeneration Part 1: In the Old Testament


Regeneration in the Old Testament by John Hendryx

Re: The New Covenant and the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament | Desiring God

 

[Truthfrees]

@Winken thank you for these answers

further questions

QUESTIONS
1. did the OT believers know about Jesus or just there would be a Savior sent by God. The OT "believers" were a people group (Jews) who were promised a Messiah who would restore them (to the Abrahamic Covenant). - what about adam, eve, seth, noah, job, and others who were God lovers but not Jews?

2. were they regenerated based on Messiah or based on their love and acceptance of God. They were regenerated IF they, as a people group, acknowledged Jesus as the promised Messiah. - how would any of them have acknowledged Jesus as the promised Messiah before 33ad?

3. did they get the same filling of the Holy Spirit we do. No. It was group restoration. - how does a group restoration work? can you clarify?

4. was the OT written by regenerated believers. There were no Christian Believers then. The OT was written by those summoned by God to write it. They were "called." - so is that regenerated? the OT writers were all Jews. what is the difference between called and regenerated?

5. today looking back who in the OT is considered regenerated - any OT believer who loved God. No. The Jews were "regenerated" as a people group, not as individuals. - what about Adam, Eve, Noah, Job, Seth, etc who were not Jews?

 

[Truthfrees]

@Tree of Life thanks for your answers

further questions

1. did the OT believers know about Jesus or just there would be a Savior sent by God

From earliest times God's people had hope for a future savior. The first promise of the gospel comes in Genesis 3:15. - awesome

2. were they regenerated based on Messiah or based on their love and acceptance of God

Regeneration has always been a free gift of God. - is there criteria? is there a way to look back and see who was regenerated or is that private between God and the individual?

3. did they get the same filling of the Holy Spirit we do

Theirs was not as full as ours. Joel 2. - Joel 2:28-32 - the Holy Spirit poured out on them rather than indwelling?

4. was the OT written by regenerated believers

Certainly most of it was. Solomon's stuff is perhaps an open question. Either way it is the word of God. - is there a way to know which OT believers were for sure regenerates?

5. today looking back who in the OT is considered regenerated - any OT believer who loved God

Anyone in the OT era who was truly saved was also regenerate. - can we know which ones were or weren't? any signs/indicators?

 

[Truthfrees]

Regeneration Part 1: In the Old Testament


Regeneration in the Old Testament by John Hendryx

Re: The New Covenant and the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament | Desiring God

wow

thank you for this

i will listen and read and get back to you with questions

 

[Don Maurer]

i recently learned that it may be a calvinist doctrine that OT believers were regenerated looking forward to the cross.

i like that idea and would like to hear more about it and how it works

i was going to post this in the calvinist forum so that there would be no debate only information shared but couldn't find it so am posting it here

QUESTIONS
1. did the OT believers know about Jesus or just there would be a Savior sent by God
2. were they regenerated based on Messiah or based on their love and acceptance of God
3. did they get the same filling of the Holy Spirit we do
4. was the OT written by regenerated believers
5. today looking back who in the OT is considered regenerated - any OT believer who loved God

Truthfrees, my compliments on your post and thinking. My hat is off to you for the depth of your thinking. The post you made demonstrates that you attempt to grasp theological systems. I hope you do not mind me not addressing the questions as you presented them in 5 parts as an individual whole.

It is interesting that the Old Testament prophecies that there will be a New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34). God will change hearts. This does not mean that he did not change hearts under the Old Covenant. I would mention that David was a man after God's own heart is New Covenant language and most likely points to regeneration. So then, OT saints were regenerated by the Holy Spirit. I do not accept that the regeneration ministry of the Holy Spirit was actually absent under the Old Covenant. Regeneration was present, but the issue of the Old Covenant is that Regeneration is not promised to "all Israel, from the greatest of them to the least of them." So therefore, one could be under the stipulations of the Old Covenant, and be unregenerate, and unsaved. On the other hand, one could be regenerate and under the Old Covenant (such as King David). The Old Covenant did not promise regeneration to "all" who are under that covenant (all who are circumcised).

This is not so in the New Covenant. Jeremiah says "for they shall ALL know me." The New Covenant is the covenant of 100% regeneration. This gets into the covenantal differences between our Presbyterian fellow believers, and those who practice believers baptism. However, in the end, I would answer your questions, yes, there were regenerate OT believers even though regeneration was not stipulated under the Old Covenant. God can always do more than he promised and this does not break his promises. He cannot do less then he promised, but he can do more and allow his grace to superabound beyond his promises. God did not break his word in regenerating OT saints.

 

[St_Worm2]

The Old Covenant did not promise regeneration to "all" who are under that covenant (all who are circumcised). This is not so in the New Covenant. Jeremiah says "for they shall ALL know me." The New Covenant is the covenant of 100% regeneration.

Hi Don, I agree with your assessment of OT believers, and I think I understand what you are saying about the NT, but just to be clear, who makes up/what is the scope of the "ALL" group who you've said are regenerate since the death of Christ?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and .. of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day" ~John 6:37-40 (excerpt)​

 

[Don Maurer]

Hi Don, I agree with your assessment of OT believers, and I think I understand what you are saying about the NT, but just to be clear, who makes up/what is the scope of the "ALL" group who you've said are regenerate since the death of Christ?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and .. of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day" ~John 6:37-40 (excerpt)​

All those who have faith, and are regenerate, all of them are the "all." All believers are the all. Sorry for the short answer. Maybe I will write more later.

 

[St_Worm2]

All those who have faith, and are regenerate, all of them are the "all." All believers are the all. Sorry for the short answer. Maybe I will write more later.

No need, for me anyway, unless you want to elaborate further. I thought that's what you meant but I just wanted to be sure.

Thanks

 

[Don Maurer]

No need, for me anyway, unless you want to elaborate further. I thought that's what you meant but I just wanted to be sure.

Thanks

Thank you, I think I will make a few comments, but the comments are not intended for you, but for any readers. You might already be aware of the discussion.

Many good brethren disagree on the extent and nature of the blessings of the New Covenant. I want to just give a flying summary that there are different views.

Some believe that all under the New Covenant are believers and regenerate. Others believe that some under the New Covenant are unregenerate and some are regenerate. One of the major points of discussion concerning this topic are the warning passages in Hebrews and how one looks at those warning passages. This seems to be an internal discussion between Reformed Baptists and conservative Presbyterians. There are some slightly differing Covenant Theology perspectives on the issue.

Other theologies look at the New Covenant in even more different ways. I am referring to the various Dispensational Theologies. (It is hard to refer to Dispensationalism as though it is one theology since Dispensationalism splintered in the 1990s.) I have a book by a guy from Talbot in which he uses the term "inaugurated." He said Christ at the cross inaugurated the New Covenant. He does not use the term "fulfilled."

There are also some Covenant Premil views from some in New Covenant Theology that take the "now and then" view of the fulfillment of the New Covenant.

The fact that not all under the Old Covenant were regenerate seems obvious. All Israel was circumcised and put under the Old Covenant, but it seems difficult to say that some of the idolatrous leaders and people were regenerate. There are other very strong hints, like passages like Deuteronomy 29:4, and passages in Isaiah where speak of "seeing they see not, hearing they hear not." Language like that cannot be used of the regenerate. So then, the issue is not so much the Old Testament, but it is the New Testament. Can those under the New Covenant, which promises a new heart, have an uncircumcised heart? That is the question.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Thank you, I think I will make a few comments, but the comments are not intended for you, but for any readers. You might already be aware of the discussion.

Many good brethren disagree on the extent and nature of the blessings of the New Covenant. I want to just give a flying summary that there are different views.

Some believe that all under the New Covenant are believers and regenerate. Others believe that some under the New Covenant are unregenerate and some are regenerate. One of the major points of discussion concerning this topic are the warning passages in Hebrews and how one looks at those warning passages. This seems to be an internal discussion between Reformed Baptists and conservative Presbyterians. There are some slightly differing Covenant Theology perspectives on the issue.

Other theologies look at the New Covenant in even more different ways. I am referring to the various Dispensational Theologies. (It is hard to refer to Dispensationalism as though it is one theology since Dispensationalism splintered in the 1990s.) I have a book by a guy from Talbot in which he uses the term "inaugurated." He said Christ at the cross inaugurated the New Covenant. He does not use the term "fulfilled."

There are also some Covenant Premil views from some in New Covenant Theology that take the "now and then" view of the fulfillment of the New Covenant.

The fact that not all under the Old Covenant were regenerate seems obvious. All Israel was circumcised and put under the Old Covenant, but it seems difficult to say that some of the idolatrous leaders and people were regenerate. There are other very strong hints, like passages like Deuteronomy 29:4, and passages in Isaiah where speak of "seeing they see not, hearing they hear not." Language like that cannot be used of the regenerate. So then, the issue is not so much the Old Testament, but it is the New Testament. Can those under the New Covenant, which promises a new heart, have an uncircumcised heart? That is the question.

Actually, Dispensationalism splintered very early in its history, not the 1990's as you assert. The same can be said concerning Reformed theology in general and Calvinism in particular. The varying views within a general school of theology can be taken to indicate a level of healthy debate which leads to unfortunate dissension and splintering.