Regeneration and Conversion

I would be interested in hearing what are your views on regeneration and conversion.

Do you see them as seperate events?

Can one happen without the other ( i mean regeneration without conversion) so that there is a time difference between the two occuring?

I believe them to be a same-same event. Regeneration being the renewing of the spirit to fellowship with God to life from death. We were made alive in Christ.

I believe regeneration precedes conversion. I think it is important to distinguish between these two because many Christians today believe that regeneration is by faith. Clearly, this is unbiblical, since the Bible teaches that regeneration is a monergistic work of God, and we must have a regenerated heart in order to repent.

I would also say that I'm not sure I'd put it into a chronological order, but there is definitely a causal order here. I think regeneration and conversion occur pretty much simultaneously in time. So I don't think one can be regenerated and not converted.

I think it's possible one can be regenerated and still "fight" it, for a while. Our pride is great, and even when one is regenerated, and now understands his own sin, one doesn't necessarily want to let go of it. Make sense?

However, I believe that all who are regenerated will convert, no denying irrestible grace for long!

I think there are many who "convert" outwardly without regeneration, but the fruit will always show bad sooner or later.

battlepig said:

I would be interested in hearing what are your views on regeneration and conversion.

Do you see them as seperate events?

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I guess it's what you consider the two to be. They're different concepts, one results from the other but I'm not sure they have long lapses of time between them.

battlepig said:

Can one happen without the other ( i mean regeneration without conversion) so that there is a time difference between the two occuring?

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By Regeneration you likely mean the New Birth in the Spirit described in John 3. New Birth logically precedes conversion (an embrace of Christ by faith). However, Paul states people received the Spirit by the hearing of faith. To me that seems to be the Spirit moving the message of the Gospel to reach people, and bringing them to New Birth by it. I'm not completely certain of this, but it leads me to the opinion -- an opinion, not a conviction -- that the two are closely connected.

The call of the Gospel may long precede the New Birth in time. But once New Birth occurs (ie, John 3 New Birth), conversion seems to follow close on its heels or even coincide with it (Gal 3:1-2). I don't know exactly how this works, "Ah only knows what ah reads." But it seems to me they coincide.

Centuries ago I don't think Regeneration meant the same thing, though. So if you look into Calvin and Luther you find the Spirit's work in regeneration started among the elect long before their conversion. By that definition I'd say the two are separated by long spans of time. By this definition regeneration begins at the first point the Spirit begins to work in a person. I don't know how long that takes to bring about New Birth. Calvin and Luther thought it took quite awhile.

(Here I'm ignoring "false conversion", which may occur anytime in the elect prior to regeneration, or in the reprobate.)

Imblessed said:

I think it's possible one can be regenerated and still "fight" it, for a while. Our pride is great, and even when one is regenerated, and now understands his own sin, one doesn't necessarily want to let go of it. Make sense?

However, I believe that all who are regenerated will convert, no denying irrestible grace for long!

I think there are many who "convert" outwardly without regeneration, but the fruit will always show bad sooner or later.

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If the grace is irresistible, then how can you resist? I disagree. I do believe it is simultaneous, if not the same thing. It can't be both ways of being able to resist and not able to resist. If you can resist it, then you are in control and God is not. Hmmm....is this a dilemma into the whole irresistible grace thing?

I'm curious to know why there is a stress on the timeing? ( I'm with the regeneration then conversion crowd btw...the timeing is unimportant to me. )

ghs1994 said:

If the grace is irresistible, then how can you resist? I disagree. I do believe it is simultaneous, if not the same thing. It can't be both ways of being able to resist and not able to resist. If you can resist it, then you are in control and God is not. Hmmm....is this a dilemma into the whole irresistible grace thing?

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It isn't really a dilemma. It just needs to be looked at from a different direction.

God's grace is indeed irresistible, but that does not imply instant. I have likened it to a huge hydraulic press. You put an object into it and hit the switch. At first apparently nothing much is happening, but in fact the internal force is building up, and it continues to build until the object can no longer resist. Presto. The object obeys the irrestible force and change happens.

For some people regeneration and conversion are virtually simultaneous. For others there is a lag period. But conversion (demonstrated by a broken and contrite heart) will most definitely follow.

Bob Moore said:

God's grace is indeed irresistible, but that does not imply instant[i/]. I have likened it to a huge hydraulic press. You put an object into it and hit the switch. At first apparently nothing much is happening, but in fact the internal force is building up, and it continues to build until the object can no longer resist. Presto. The object obeys the irrestible force and change happens.

For some people regeneration and conversion are virtually simultaneous. For others there is a lag period. But conversion (demonstrated by a broken and contrite heart) will most definitely follow.

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Very nice illustration, that kinda clears things up for me.

here is an interesting quote ........... note the writer differentiates between Regeneration and ADOPTION .

This will explain why certain Christians (ben) who quote scripture see Faith as prior to regeneration .......... it is not , it is prior to adoption.


The place of adoption in the order of salvation may be discerned from an exegesis of John 1:12,13: "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." First, it is important to note that in this passage the act of "receiving" Christ (aorist tense in the Greek) and the continuous "believing in his name" (a present participle) both refer to faith in Jesus Christ. The first idea of receiving Christ refers to initial faith in Christ and the later idea of continually believing in his name refers to the instrumentality whereby the Christian continues to appropriate Christ’s benefits throughout his life (Reymond, p. 708). John states that as many as received him are given the right to become children of God. The Greek word translated as "right" (exousian) has the meaning of the legal word "authority;" it is referring to the legal act of God’s grace in adoption. Therefore, John is teaching that faith is the necessary logical precondition to adoption. Since being adopted into God’s family would presuppose that a person’s sins are forgiven and he is accepted by God as righteous, it is logical to assume that adoption follows justification. John Murray writes: "Adoption would obviously come after justification - we could not think of one being adopted into the family of God without first being accepted by God and made an heir of eternal life" (Redemption: Accomplished and Applied, p. 87). This gives us the logical order: calling, faith and repentance, justification, adoption, and glorification.

A crucial question in the order of the application of salvation is the position of regeneration in the ordo salutis. John 1:13 indicates that those who receive and continually believe in Christ are those who have first been born of God. Robert Reymond writes, "Why do some people repent and respond by faith in Christ to the divine summons to faith while others do not? Concerning those who believe in Christ’s name John immediately says in John 1:13: ‘[These are they] who have been begotten [egennethesan], not by blood, nor by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of a husband, but by God.’ By this particular reference to God’s ‘begetting’ activity John refers to regeneration, and clearly suggests by his statement that, while faith is the instrumental precondition to justification and adoption, regeneration is the necessary precondition and efficient cause of faith in Jesus Christ. In short, regeneration causally precedes faith" (A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith, p. 708). This is a crucial point in the debates between Arminian and Reformed theology. The idea that regeneration precedes faith relates closely to the biblical teaching concerning the nature of sin and its effect on man. The Bible teaches emphatically that sin corrupts the totality of man's heart; a person's will and desires are under the slavery of sin (Titus 3:3-5), he is dead in sin without spiritual life or any inclination toward Christ (Eph. 2:1-3), he does not have the moral ability to choose Christ apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit (John 1:12,13; 6:44,45, 63-65), and the things of God are foolishness to him (1 Cor. 2:14). For saving faith and repentance to be present, a prior work of regeneration must take place. Scripture is clear and consistent on the point that, because of man's radical falleness, God is the divine initiator of salvation (John 3:1-10; Eph. 2:1-5; Col. 2:13). This relationship between regeneration and faith and repentance is crucial for a proper understanding of the grace of God. If it is taught that man has the moral ability to come to Christ on his own and he takes the first step, then, not only is the Scriptural teaching concerning man's sin denied, but the grace of God in salvation is diminished and a false view of salvation is held. This ultimately leads to a concept of salvation in which man's merit becomes the necessary condition for salvation to be present; therefore, person believes in Christ because he is somehow intrinsically more righteous than someone else. Consequently, what may seem to be a small theological point concerning the relationship of regeneration and faith and repentance has large ramifications concerning the grace of God and the nature of the gospel itself. In following chapters, we will examine the key debate points and Scriptures that show the idea that regeneration precedes faith and repentance. In terms of the relationship between calling and regeneration, Roman 8:30 teaches that glorification is the last act in the application of salvation. This implies that calling is the first act in the application of salvation. Therefore, calling either precedes regeneration or regeneration is the work of God that makes calling effectual. This now fleshes out our order of the application of salvation gives us the following order: calling, regeneration, faith and repentance, justification, adoption, and glorification.

http://covenantofgracechurch.org/modules/tinyd0/index.php?id=15

cont ...............



John 1:12,13 shows the connection between regeneration, faith in Christ, and adoption: "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." This passage states that those who receive or believe in Him (Jesus) are given the right or authority to become children of God. Faith is a prerequisite to adoption; only those who believe in Christ become children of God. This verse also teaches an important truth concerning the relationship of regeneration, faith, and adoption. Verse 13 states that those who believe and are consequently adopted into God's family are those who have first of all been born of God. They were not born of God because of anything in themselves (not "the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man"). This demonstrates again the grace of God in our salvation. A person is born of God solely by the sovereign monergistic work of God, is granted faith, and as a result of the exercise of that faith is justified and adopted into God's family.

http://covenantofgracechurch.org/modules/tinyd0/index.php?id=10

Bob Moore said:

It isn't really a dilemma. It just needs to be looked at from a different direction.

God's grace is indeed irresistible, but that does not imply instant. I have likened it to a huge hydraulic press. You put an object into it and hit the switch. At first apparently nothing much is happening, but in fact the internal force is building up, and it continues to build until the object can no longer resist. Presto. The object obeys the irrestible force and change happens.

For some people regeneration and conversion are virtually simultaneous. For others there is a lag period. But conversion (demonstrated by a broken and contrite heart) will most definitely follow.

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So technically what we're saying here while regeneration may have happened, what we're really talking about is outward changes in attitude. I think conversion is a bad word to use. Maybe sanctification process, but not conversion.

Conversion is something we do , "I converted to Christ"


Regeneration is something God does . " I was regenerated "

The conversion experience is a mixture of Repent , believe Obey the Gospel be baptised and give your life to the Lord daily.

The regeneration experienece is something where we have no say , it is a mystery and it happens to us while we are passive ...... you may convert but you cannot regenerate or choose to regenerate yourself.

To me, regeneration goes with repentance at the time when Holy Spirit convicts us to accept and know God. Repentance basically means at time of our salvation, we repent of our sins which means we are willing in our hearts to want to turn away from all our sins and give them to Jesus. Biblically, a person who repents does not continue willfully in sin. Repentance is a turning from sin, and it always results in changed behavior (Luke 3:8). While sorrow from sin is not equivalent to repentance, it is certainly an element of scriptural repentance (2 Corinthians 7:10). There will be a lot of people who will claim Jesus as Lord of their lives, but won't truly repent of their sins and won't submit to the commands of the Word of God in reference to the habit pattern of their lives. Regeneration basically means allowing the Holy Spirit to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness (See Ephesians 4:24). It is the Holy Spirit that convicted us to accept Christ. After we are saved, we are to discern the spirit and allow the Holy Spirit to guide us to proper teachings. Many times, people don't allow the Holy Spirit to guide instead, they follow their desires they think God approves.

In summary, regeneration produces sancification.
We are God's letter, written in our hearts to be known and read by everybody. We are to show that we are a letter from Christ, the result of His ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of our hearts (2 Corinthians 3:2-3). Our life as a Christian takes work and requires the commitment of our heart, mind and body. Christ is not outside of us but He is inside of us. Since Christ is within us, we must listen to His Word and walk in His steps (2 Corinthians 4:10).

ghs1994 said:

So technically what we're saying here while regeneration may have happened, what we're really talking about is outward changes in attitude. I think conversion is a bad word to use. Maybe sanctification process, but not conversion.

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That's right because when God regenerates the heart He has in effect 'converted' it. It often happens that he whose heart has been regenerated (or converted) doesn't, at first, show the outward signs. That can take a little while. Indeed, the process of sanctification, which never ends this side of heaven has, at the point of regeneration, just begun.

An hour and a half ago I stood and looked at the face of a friend of mine whose sanctification was completed last Thursday evening. He was always a man of few words, but the words he did speak were always worth listening to. He used to say that the man who thinks himself well on the road is in fact in the ditch because of pride. That was his way of saying what I just said in the previous paragraph.

Bob Moore said:

It isn't really a dilemma. It just needs to be looked at from a different direction.

God's grace is indeed irresistible, but that does not imply instant. I have likened it to a huge hydraulic press. You put an object into it and hit the switch. At first apparently nothing much is happening, but in fact the internal force is building up, and it continues to build until the object can no longer resist. Presto. The object obeys the irrestible force and change happens.

For some people regeneration and conversion are virtually simultaneous. For others there is a lag period. But conversion (demonstrated by a broken and contrite heart) will most definitely follow.

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been gone this weekend...

thank you Bob, for putting it so well. That's exactly what I meant!

cygnusx1 said:

John 1:12,13 shows the connection between regeneration, faith in Christ, and adoption: "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." This passage states that those who receive or believe in Him (Jesus) are given the right or authority to become children of God. Faith is a prerequisite to adoption; only those who believe in Christ become children of God. This verse also teaches an important truth concerning the relationship of regeneration, faith, and adoption. Verse 13 states that those who believe and are consequently adopted into God's family are those who have first of all been born of God. They were not born of God because of anything in themselves (not "the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man"). This demonstrates again the grace of God in our salvation. A person is born of God solely by the sovereign monergistic work of God, is granted faith, and as a result of the exercise of that faith is justified and adopted into God's family.

http://covenantofgracechurch.org/modules/tinyd0/index.php?id=10

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I'm not so sure adoption appears in this order. It wouldn't bother me, I'm just not so sure! Here's why.

What if John wasn't so much telling us, "after they received God gave them the right to be sons of God"? What if John were really telling us this: "The same people who are receiving Jesus, are the same people God gives the right to become sons of God." That "as many" phrase triggers the possibility. So to me it comes down to God's adoption being distributed among exactly the people who receive Jesus, no more, no less (and here Mr. Covenantalist injects his vigorous nod!).

That might bring up the question, where do I go for putting adoption in an order? Well, I kind of see being born of God ("regeneration" today) as intimately linked with adoption (being a son of God). And so I tend to blur lines here, picking on 1 John 5:1: "Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ is [already] born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him." So those who believe have already been born of God.

I would guess it really all depends what you include in the idea of "sons of God", though. Does it include regeneration and all. And I've never heard people other than John Murray (Redemption Accomplished and Applied) try to tackle it, if you have other comments I'm interested.

the further away from God some elect person starts out, the longer their regeneration takes. It is a process, mebbe with covenantal kids it is an almost instaneous process, but i just betcha with devil worshippers that are the elect, it takes YEARS! (then they convert after all those years of regeneration)