Regarding the recent passing of Pope John Paul II

[daveleau]

I am going to borrow from the words of DrSteveJ because he said it so well.

The Passing of John Paul II

The death of John Paul II is a most sorrowful occassion for our Catholic members and many non-Catholics as well. Staff has had quite a number of reports of posts that are disrespectful, insensitive and worse.

CF rules prohibit flames and insults at any time including this period of mourning. Common courtesy should constrain all of us to be respectful and sensitive to those who grieve. This is especially true in a time of worldwide grief among millions.

As staff we ask each of you to exercise a special measure of consideration toward those who mourn.

"Do unto others s you would have them do unto you.." --JESUS

 

[TwinCrier]

Thanks for the reminder. I'm sure simular messages will appear should the Rev. Jerry Falwell go home to be with the Lord anytime soon.

 

[Flynmonkie]

Any man of God, no matter our differences in the small things, because Christians DO differ in opinion about these non-essential matters -His passing is a loss to all of us as Christians. I have been away for a while but it truly saddens me that my fellow brothers and sisters would suffer such treatment. I might attend and found membership with a Baptist Church, which does not discount the fact that my Bible states quite plainly - if you profess with your mouth. And that He did. I just hate all this division sometimes! Even Christians within the same denomination disagree………just wonder why people don’t get it? Read Galatians over and over is my advice to these people.

I heard a story recently regarding Billy Graham and his wife on the topic of Baptism. His wife is Methodist Apparently he confessed one day that this is an area where they differ. Can you imagine? Look at how many things God has accomplished through their example, yet they disagree on something so simple as Baptism!! Apparently, he claims he would give anything if someone would please convince her that she should be totally immersed! I found it humorous, as that Baptized or not, I doubt very seriously anyone would ever question either ones salvation......

just something to think about....

 

[Lockheed]

"Do unto others..."

Jesus told the truth. To the woman at the well He told her that she was a gross sinner and that her people worshipped improperly.

"... as you would have..."

When it comes to the truth in our lives, why should we be silent when people are headed down the wrong path?

"... done unto you."

I'd much rather you warn me of the impending curve ahead of me than that you remain silent while I plow my car into a pole or over a cliff.

This false-ecumenism is a travesty.

 

[Flynmonkie]

Yes, but your not Jesus! Even then he did this with discretion and discernment. Not in condemnation! Silent? I am not sure we should be silent, however again discretion and discernment comes into play and I am not sure that the topic of a life lost, most importantly a God seeking man, is the most appropriate time to start pointing out ones proposed “lack” of knowledge, do you? This is where all those verses in Proverbs regarding wisdom come into play. And it is quite clear to me we are not to question ones salvation. I am sure this is not what God intended for us as Christians. As I always say, it is a wonder the Good Lord gets anything done with all of us out here tyring to do it "for him"

 

[Lockheed]

Yes, but your not Jesus! Even then he did this with discretion and discernment. Not in condemnation!

Are we to emulate Jesus or not?

Jesus basically called the woman [a word that this message board edits out]("You've had 5 husbands and the man you're with now is not your husband..." <-- That's strong language!), she changed the subject and Jesus told her that her people worshipped in ignorance.

Paul, when confronting Peter about his error in Galatia he "opposed him to his face." In describing those who were troubling the Galatians, Paul states he wishes them to be emasculated. Come now... let's be honest with our faith.

Both times, however, the intent was to restore people to a right relationship with God, hence "do unto others..." But it was never done in this emasculated way which is now promoted.

Silent? I am not sure we should be silent, however again discretion and discernment comes into play and I am not sure that the topic of a life lost, most importantly a God seeking man, is the most appropriate time to start pointing out ones proposed “lack” of knowledge, do you?

That's exactly where Paul started it both in his preaching to the Greeks and in his letter to the Romans. Basically: "You know God and you reject Him". "What you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you."

We must remember, this isn't our opinion, our good ideas we're bringing, but the very truth of God in the form of the Gospel.

Here again you err, however, in saying that JPII was "seeking God", here again is this subtle "we're all on our own special trips to heaven" is proffered. This kind of ecumenism wasn't accepted by our Baptist fore-fathers, yet now in this post-modern society we're all about "getting along".

Sorry, the Gospel of Christ is offensive, especially to those who view their own efforts as having some merit in the economy of the Kingdom of Heaven. Remove the offense, and you remove the Gospel.

This is where all those verses in Proverbs regarding wisdom come into play. And it is quite clear to me we are not to question ones salvation.

On what basis? When Paul said of the Judiazers that they were "accursed", that is "anathema" (the very same curse the Roman Catholic church has placed on us Baptists!), was he "not question(ing) ones salvation?" When Christ told the Pharisees they were "children of the devil", was He questioning their salvation?

Why is it that when the supreme leader and infallible teacher of a group which has, in history past, a group which has anathematized the Gospel, time and again, a group which seeks apparitions of the Mother of God in the slime of an underpass, dies we're told we're not to "question his salvation"? Let's be straight up here, if the guy died believing and following what he wrote about for most of his life with the motto of "Totally Yours" addressed not to the Savior but to his mother, what else can we say? God have mercy!

This kind of theological cowardace does a disservice to those martrys who died standing up for the truth against the Inquisition. We dishonor the name of every one of our brothers who sought to reform the Roman Catholic church only to be struck down for standing for the Gospel.

I am sure this is not what God intended for us as Christians. As I always say, it is a wonder the Good Lord gets anything done with all of us out here tyring to do it "for him"

God uses men as means to do His will. He used Peter and Paul to proclaim His truth unto their deaths. But if the Gospel is really what some folks here seem to believe, something not worth standing firm for, not worth proclaiming from the roof tops, not worth getting into some politically incorrect trouble for... what in the world did Peter, Paul and the others go to their deaths for? Surely they knew it was just a matter of semantics, just a little bit of doctrine, nothing to get one's head cut off for.

No Compromise.

 

[ZiSunka]

Maybe it's time to un-sticky this thread?

 

[mesue]

good post Lockheed.

And, yes, perhaps the thread should be unstickyed. I haven't seen the insensitivities spoken of in this forum, unless the thread came and went without my knowing. I have seen the defending of God's word. Which is what we do.

 

[Flynmonkie]

Are we to emulate Jesus or not?

Jesus basically called the woman [a word that this message board edits out]("You've had 5 husbands and the man you're with now is not your husband..." <-- That's strong language!), she changed the subject and Jesus told her that her people worshipped in ignorance.

Where in the world do you see this? The KJV..states:
15The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw. 16Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither. 17The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: 18For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly. 19The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
He did not call her a name!!!!! He said on the contrary – Go get your husband…now what do you suppose that meant ----if he KNEW she was not married? I believe you should go back and review this and the numerous things to be learned.

<snip>.....
That's exactly where Paul started it both in his preaching to the Greeks and in his letter to the Romans. Basically: "You know God and you reject Him". "What you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you."

Rejecting God is not the issue here. The Bible is very clear about profession. I am sure you know those verses.

We must remember, this isn't our opinion, our good ideas we're bringing, but the very truth of God in the form of the Gospel.

No I disagree, it is what is called a literal interpretation of the “Bible” (the letter) with no regard to the spirit of a verse or verses…. out here in the country we call it legalism.

Here again you err, however, in saying that JPII was "seeking God", here again is this subtle "we're all on our own special trips to heaven" is proffered. This kind of ecumenism wasn't accepted by our Baptist fore-fathers, yet now in this post-modern society we're all about "getting along".

Oh really, I see, so you have somehow aquired a knack of seeing ones heart condition? Or I gues you have learned everything you need to know all at once? Please do tell your secret. I know personally as devoted as I am to seeking Gods will, He has taken me places I never would have imagined to learn them. I learn every day. Sometimes twice! We are all on different paths, one truly very narrow gate. Our role here as Christians is to hold each other up in following that directive, not tear down others individual learning processes. And Thank goodness we are not in the days of the scarlet letter and witch-hunts. We have grown, the church is being sanctified day by day…. just as each of us are sanctified in a life long learning process.

Did the rules change on this board since I have been absent for a bit? I did not know that the Baptist forum is allowed to insinuate such things about other Christian denominations on this board? At least in this manner. None the less….

Sorry, the Gospel of Christ is offensive, especially to those who view their own efforts as having some merit in the economy of the Kingdom of Heaven. Remove the offense, and you remove the Gospel.

Neither I nor any other true Christian are offended by the Gospel, however the “means” it is being delivered is in question here.

On what basis? When Paul said of the Judiazers that they were "accursed", that is "anathema" (the very same curse the Roman Catholic church has placed on us Baptists!), was he "not question(ing) ones salvation?" When Christ told the Pharisees they were "children of the devil", was He questioning their salvation?

I have never had a Catholic act in such a manner to me in real life, not to mention most belive the same things I do....the big things..the most important things. Our differences (of course in real life not on paper) manifest in rituals etc.....but they do have a point...Baptism doesn't save so why do we do it. None of these things affect salvation, a closer relationship with God, yes. But not salvation.

Why is it that when the supreme leader and infallible teacher of a group which has, in history past, a group which has anathematized the Gospel, time and again, a group which seeks apparitions of the Mother of God in the slime of an underpass, dies we're told we're not to "question his salvation"? Let's be straight up here, if the guy died believing and following what he wrote about for most of his life with the motto of "Totally Yours" addressed not to the Savior but to his mother, what else can we say? God have mercy!

I am sorry but this is sheer uneducated nonsense. Not to mention that I can drudge up some not so nice history on my own Church denomination (Baptist). People sin, people make mistakes. God forgives……why can’t you? You are talking about a leader of millions of followers, you have no idea what that is like…whom he has to answer to, what he actually believed. Who God has set before him to work with. Have you ever read his book? Try doing so, you just might learn he is a simple fallible human just like the rest of us…. then do some praying.

This kind of theological cowardace does a disservice to those martrys who died standing up for the truth against the Inquisition. We dishonor the name of every one of our brothers who sought to reform the Roman Catholic church only to be struck down for standing for the Gospel.

Nonsense. This man is not to blame for centuries old crimes before he had a say or not.

God uses men as means to do His will. He used Peter and Paul to proclaim His truth unto their deaths. But if the Gospel is really what some folks here seem to believe, something not worth standing firm for, not worth proclaiming from the roof tops, not worth getting into some politically incorrect trouble for... what in the world did Peter, Paul and the others go to their deaths for? Surely they knew it was just a matter of semantics, just a little bit of doctrine, nothing to get one's head cut off for.

Each one of those that fought has made great strides. I believe they wished deeply for the Chruch to note error of their ways and recognize – and it worked in many ways. Lets not forget some of these glorified maryters also were involved in percecution, of our very own basis of faith. Again, I am not big on conspiracy theory here, and I like to learn from History - but let it remain in history - not carry the torch like a crutch of an excuse not to understand reality….but of course my faith that God is just and keeps His promises takes precedence over any anxiety over this such as you have noted.

I am not sure about yours but in my Bible it speaks of emulating Jesus quite a bit different than BEING a blameless, sinless and perfect person. I feel until I have attained this (in which I do not believe that this happens until glorification – the return of our savior) that I am the last person on this earth to start judging salvation. And barking condemnations...‘Corse, that is also instructed in the Bible…I am sure you know this though.

In addition, I am not sure where in the verse Gal 5:22-23 NLT But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control.

It says anger, hate, rudeness, abruptness, un-forgiveness or disrespect…. just not finding that anywhere…For the wise know – God hates sin – not us sinners….when we are earnestly seeking Him – even in our own individual path of learning He knows the truly seeking.

Or better yet how about the verses that say: Prov 12:18 Thoughtless words can wound as deeply as any sword, but wisely spoken words can heal. I think to myself which side of the fence do I wish to be on….of course we know the devil does own that fence…but I sure would rather my life stand for helping to heal than to have destroyed.

That sort of makes me believe I should choose my words and timing carefully if I were to try and help God change another’s heart.

Speaking of hearts…. this one kind of jumps out there at me too….

For as He thinks in his heart...so is he! Prov 23:7

Wow that is a whopper, because it means if I am angry and resentful for others not seeing things my way, I am subject to this treatment myself. My actions brand me in this regard. But of course we know we cannot ever judge a heart. Again, this is Gods job alone.

But one of my many favorites on this subject has to be
Christ sent you to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech 1 Cor. 1:17. Do not preach with superiority of speech or wisdom 1 Cor. 2:1.
A man reaps what He sows Gal 6:7 ……actually truly you might study a bit more on Gal. Not sure if this is included in the Calvin way – I know it is in Gods way. Don’t get me wrong I belive wholeheartedly that Calvin along with many other Theologians up until now have made great strides for Faith. And learning about that is great, but following God is my priority. Especially because most Calvins don’t even grasp the full meaning of what He truly implied with his studies…but that is another thread.

You do it your way and I plan to do it mine. We will see how many self respecting Christians want to fellowship with someone that is running around pointing fingers so easily…we are also taught (in Proverbs BTW)…. those that do this….will eventually do this to us.

Back to the point of this thread….I did not comment to become involved with a back and forth conversation that is obviously going nowhere. I simply made my feelings known regarding insensitive comments during this time for our fellow brothers and sisters in CHRIST. No matter our differences. Anyone whom makes insensitive statements in this situation has a definite lack of knowledge, and wisdom and could use a good correction. I am not one of the “protestants” that feel delivering a message in this manner to other believers is appropriate at any time. It’s just that simple.

No Compromise.

Wow, can you imagine if God or Jesus said that to you?

Were not talking about compromising the gospel, if we are getting real here we are talking about your understanding of how we should show the fruits of the Holy Spirit to other professing Christians.

Simple fact of the matter Christians do disagree and will unfortunatly it seems...but that makes none of us less of a Christian...

something to think over I guess....

 

[daveleau]

The insensitive nature of unkind words has been heavily reported recently from this forum and most of these reports centered around this topic. Using theology to beat people who we think are wrong (and may very well be wrong) is not the teaching of God. We are to speak kindly to others and treat others with respect. Jesus rarely spoke out of anger or contempt. He used love to turn the sinful towards Him. We need to remember that.

I am locking this thread to stop posting in it.

 

[daveleau]

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