• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

Do You Adhear to Sola Scriptura?


  • Total voters
    97
Status
Not open for further replies.

Theodore A. Jones

Active Member
Sep 20, 2015
144
9
80
✟436.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"Do not go beyond what is written." 1 Cor. 4:6 At least one apostle says otherwise than you do.
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
"Do not go beyond what is written." 1 Cor. 4:6 At least one apostle says otherwise than you do.
Right. The dispute is whether to accept all that was written, or what portion of it.
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Evidently you don't since "Do not go beyond what is written" is written.
More was written than just 66 books...how about the place where it says you shouldn't subtract from what is written?
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,412
11,947
Georgia
✟1,102,078.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
As MoreCoffee said. Jerome recognized that a higher authority was requiring him to do the translation, and he did as he was bid.

I think we all agree that Jerome's revulsion at being forced to compromise the text of scripture in service to dictates of an uninformed hierarchy is well documented in his prologues and is very much the revulsion that most non-Catholics would have today in that regard.

Since his prologue is documented - and since at no point does Jerome argue for "Well this text comes from the RCC so whatever the RCC says to do with it - must be the right thing after all that is how we get sacred scripture in the first place" - I think we can all agree that non-Catholics are not likely to sympathize with the uninformed hierarchy that was twisting Jerome's arm on this one.

So then - how "surprising" that there is resort to the details in Jerome's case by anyone opposed to sola scriptura!!
 
Upvote 0

Theodore A. Jones

Active Member
Sep 20, 2015
144
9
80
✟436.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
More was written than just 66 books...how about the place where it says you shouldn't subtract from what is written?
Peter does say that somethings Paul wrote are difficult to understand, but "Do not go beyond what is written." isn't.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,412
11,947
Georgia
✟1,102,078.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68659583, member: 235244"]1. The Jews had the content of our 39 books long before the Septuagint.
2. Jerome did not include the 10 extra books without a lot of arm twisting - and even when he added them - he declared them to be "apocrypha" and not canon.
3. the early King James - English translation - comes after Luther and did include the Apocrypha - but not as canon.

3. The "oracles of God" were given to the Jews (Rom. 3:2) and they rejected the Old Testament Apocrypha as part of this inspired revelation. Interestingly, Jesus had many disputes with the Jews, but He never disputed with them regarding the extent of the inspired revelation of God.2

4. The Dead Sea scrolls provide no commentary on the Apocrypha but do provide commentary on some of the Jewish Old Testament books. This probably indicates that the Jewish Essene community did not regard them as highly as the Jewish Old Testament books.

5. Many ancient Jews rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture. Philo never quoted the Apocrypha as Scripture. Josephus explicitly rejected the Apocrypha and listed the Hebrew Canon to be 22 books. 3 In fact, the Jewish Community acknowledged that the prophetic gifts had ceased in Israel before the Apocrypha was written.


6. The Catholic Church has not always accepted the Apocrypha. The Apocrypha was not officially accepted by the Catholic Church at a universal council until 1546 at the Council of Trent. This is over a millennium and a half after the books were written, and was a counter reaction to the Protestant Reformation.4

7. Many church Fathers rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture, and many just used them for devotional purposes. For example, Jerome, the great Biblical scholar and translator of the Latin Vulgate, rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture though, supposedly under pressure, he did make a hurried translation of it. In fact, most of the church fathers in the first four centuries of the Church rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture. Along with Jerome, names include Origen, Cyril of Jerusalem, and Athanasius.

8. The Apocryphal books were placed in Bibles before the Council of Trent and after but were placed in a separate section because they were not of equal authority. The Apocrypha rightfully has some devotional purposes, but it is not inspired.


9. The Apocryphal books do not share many of the chararacteristics of the Canonical books: they are not prophetic, there is no supernatural confirmation of any of the apocryphal writers works, there is no predictive prophecy, there is no new Messianic truth revealed, they are not cited as authoritative by any prophetic book written after them, and they even acknowledge that there were no prophets in Israel at their time (cf. 1 Macc. 9:27; 14:41).

10. And it is not clear at all how the Apocrypha discussion applies to the sola scriptura test of all doctrine and tradition discussion - unless there is a Catholic statement that certain RC doctrines and traditions are refuted by the Bible - but would be sustained if the apocrypha were added.[/QUOTE]


Regardless of what the Jews did or didn't do, what is the relevance?
Jerome was not authoritative. He was a translator doing what the Church requested of him

If we really believe that the person that "could read" the texts from which he was translating "and knew" that what was being asked was the one who is "dead wrong" -- AND we sided in stead with the uninformed administrators twisting his arm... well I think we would have to already BE Catholic.

But you and I know that those arguing in favor of the Bible model for sola scriptura in Mark 7:6-13 and Acts 17:11 are not already Catholic. So the appeal you make in your statement above would only work to a fellow Catholic.

How then so you expect it to work in this sort of discussion??


with obedience.
What's your point? There was no Jewish Canon prior to there being a Catholic Canon.

Not according to Jerome.
In the prologue to Esdras he mentions 3 and 4 Esdras as being apocrypha. In his prologue to the books of Solomon, he mentioned "the book of Jesus son of Sirach and another pseudepigraphos, which is titled the Wisdom of Solomon". He says of them and Judith, Tobias, and the Books of the Maccabees, that the Church "has not received them among the canonical scriptures".

Not according to Josephus.

Not according to Christ.

Not according to Luke
"And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures" Luke 24:27

not according to Acts 17:11

Not according to the non-Catholics on this thread.

Again, why do we consider the Essene community as authoritative to a Christian Bible???

If you think that the Apocrypha was written by Christians - you are either admitting to thinking that they are post-cross forgeries or you simply are not paying attention to the details as for when the Christian church started.

in Christ,

Bob
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I don't agree. He became a priest to serve Christ totally. He served Christ by serving the Church. Totally. I think he didn't like trying to translate Chaldean. Who are you to declare that the hierarchy was uninformed? They are informed, and ordained by the Holy Spirit.
Prologues are never considered infallible as Scripture is. Jerome later changed his opinion, by the way. You never seem to get to that point. I don't care, really, that non-Catholics don't sympathize...Christ didn't twist his disciples arms, either, when the went back to their former lives in revulsion of him telling them they had to eat his flesh to have eternal life.
So then - how "surprising" that there is resort to the details in Jerome's case by anyone opposed to sola scriptura!!
Conveniently leaving out that he did change his opinion, seeing the wisdom of the Church in this matter...
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,412
11,947
Georgia
✟1,102,078.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
As much as I do enjoy debunking the dead-end suggestion that there was no OT scritpure known and accepted by both Christians and Jews in the NT --

I think we should get back to the point

======================================

Sola scriptura -- in real life - just as Christ demonstrated for us in Mark 7


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.[/QUOTE]
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
When you're charged with being a translator of a complete document, your opinion matters very little.
But you and I know that those arguing in favor of the Bible model for sola scriptura in Mark 7:6-13 and Acts 17:11 are not already Catholic. So the appeal you make in your statement above would only work to a fellow Catholic.
I guess you're entire Bible consists of Mark 7:6-13 and Acts 17:11. By the way, when the Jews "received the word", what Bible were they using? None-they were listening to St. Paul SPEAK.
How then so you expect it to work in this sort of discussion??




Not according to Jerome.

Not according to Josephus.

Not according to Christ.

Not according to the non-Catholics on this thread.
Really? What Canon of Scripture did the "Jews" have in Jesus' time? Where is that written down and codified? The truth is that different factions discarded different books of the OT to suit their purposes. That's why the Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection.
If you think that the Apocrypha was written by Christians - you are either admitting to thinking that they are post-cross forgeries or you simply are not paying attention to the details as for when the Christian church started.

in Christ,

Bob
I said that??? I asked why we would submit to Jewish authority over our own Church when it comes to declaring our Bible...
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
[/QUOTE]

You need to learn to read. There was none codified. The Pharisees used one group of texts, the Sadducees used another, the Essenes another. All were "Jews". In fact, they had competing factions in the Sanhedrin. Until the Catholic Church made their list and used it uniformly, in other words after the destruction of the temple (and the destruction of the Jewish faith as they knew it), there was no canon other than the Septuagint.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,412
11,947
Georgia
✟1,102,078.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married

"Uninformed" as in - they could not read the text -- they could not read the Hebrew and Aramaic texts or the context and history around them - there were not scholars in that field - they were clueless 'from the text' as to what the differences were and what the history and context were.

Prologues are never considered infallible

oh yes they are - the prologue is an infallible rendering of what Jerome's view was. I am using the prologue to show - what Jerome was thinking.

so obviously - I all can see that Jerome knew infallibly - what Jerome was thinking.

To doubt that - one would again have to already be catholic and as you and I both know - those who support the Bible statements on sola scriptura on this thread - are not - Catholic.

And it would be nonsense to argue that Jerome was "anti Catholic"
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,412
11,947
Georgia
✟1,102,078.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married

You need to learn to read. There was none codified. [/QUOTE]


Not according to Jerome.

Not according to Josephus.

Not according to Christ.

Not according to Luke
"And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures" Luke 24:27

not according to Acts 17:11

Not according to the non-Catholics on this thread.
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
But they COULD read the Greek Septuagint, Bob. Nobody disagreed with Jerome's translation, although today many scholars do. Augustine considered the Septuagint inspired, as did many others. Besides, the Canon had already been set in Rome and Hippo and Carthage.
oh yes they are - the prologue is an infallible rendering of what Jerome's view was. I am using the prologue to show - what Jerome was thinking.
so obviously - I all can see that Jerome knew infallibly - what Jerome was thinking.
They are not infallible, as in I don't need to use them or believe them.
To doubt that - one would again have to already be catholic and as you and I both know - those who support the Bible statements on sola scriptura on this thread - are not - Catholic.

And it would be nonsense to argue that Jerome was "anti Catholic"
No, he was a good Catholic. He listened to his authorities, unlike Luther, etc. Even in cases where he thought the hierarchy was wrong, he was faithful.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,412
11,947
Georgia
✟1,102,078.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
When you're charged with being a translator of a complete document, your opinion matters very little.

When you are the only one in the group "that can read" the texts, the context, the difference between text-A and text-B and which one was considered to be inspired by the Hebrew nation-church started in fallibly by God - that created those texts -- well then your opinion matters a great deal more than administrators around you that "can't".

Unless of course they are catholic administrators and you too are catholic and you really don't care about the facts in the text - as much as what the Catholic hierarchy has to say.

And in that case - you will be acting on a value that those who are not Catholic do not place above the text.
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
You need to learn to read. There was none codified.


Not according to Jerome.

Not according to Josephus.

Not according to Christ.

Not according to Luke
"And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures" Luke 24:27

not according to Acts 17:11

Not according to the non-Catholics on this thread.[/QUOTE]
Show me where "all the Scriptures" was defined? By Jerome, Josephus or Christ? Where does it say 1 Maccabees does not belong in "all the Scriptures", or that "Ecclesiastes belongs in all the Scriptures".
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,412
11,947
Georgia
✟1,102,078.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married

Jesus said in Matt 22 that the Sadducees were in error - "not knowing the scriptures" - those who accept sola scriptura have no problem siding with Christ on that point as well as siding with Luke's statement in Luke 24 that Christ's teaching was from "ALL of scripture"
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,412
11,947
Georgia
✟1,102,078.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68660438, member: 235244"]As much as I do enjoy debunking the dead-end suggestion that there was no OT scritpure known and accepted by both Christians and Jews in the NT --

I think we should get back to the point

======================================

Sola scriptura -- in real life - just as Christ demonstrated for us in Mark 7


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.[/QUOTE]

escaping from Mark 7 -- is not an option.

I guess you're entire Bible consists of Mark 7:6-13 and Acts 17:11. By the way, when the Jews "received the word", what Bible were they using?

They were using the one that Josephus said they already had - the one unchanged for 400 years.

And Mark 7 is even in Catholic Bibles - so not sure how your answer above helps you.
 
Upvote 0

Goatee

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.
Aug 16, 2015
7,585
3,619
61
Under a Rock. Wales, UK
✟77,615.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Divorced
As i have said before, Mark 7 is on about people preferring their own 'traditions' instead of the teachings of Jesus which were by 'Word of Mouth' and via the 'Holy Spirit' which in the course of time were transmitted via the 'Tradition' handed down by Jesus through the one Catholic church!! Simples!
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
The point is that they had a competing idea of what constitutes "Scripture", not whether they were in error. They were Jews, they held only to the Torah, the Pharisees held different ideas, as did the Essenes. Ours is the same argument.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.