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Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

Do You Adhear to Sola Scriptura?


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Light of the East

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Okay. I can see that. But many who are not in the Church have the view that Holy Tradition is somehow in animus against the Sacred Scriptures. That was what I was addressing.
 
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tulipbee

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66 books are inspired by God and the rest not. I chose the 66, alone
 
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tulipbee

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Do you believe in the trinity, or that Christ is fully man and fully God? Guess what that is not a Protestant tradition. It is a tradition you adopted from the Catholic Church.
Never mind all those extras, we get Jesus and God is the same from the inspired word of God, alone. (Deuteronomy 6:4)- The Father, The Son and The Spirit are all one God.

The Father is God (John 6:27).
The Son is God (Hebrews 1:8).
The Spirit is God (1 Corinthians 3:16).

However:

-the Father is not the Son or the Spirit.
-The Son is not the Father or the Spirit.
-The Spirit is not the Father or the Son.
 
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tulipbee

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Scripture were born from one author, God. Forget the chatty noises. They can talk all they want but it is God the moved the pens.
 
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Sine Nomine

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During the course of my discussions with Protestants over Catholic doctrine, it has become clear that until the concept of sola scriptura (Bible alone) is refuted, we will be in a state of perpetually frivolous debate.

I guess I'm kinda soft on Sola Scriptural. I believe the Bible communicates all things necessary for salvation. Understanding these things and other parts of Scripture requires the Holy Spirit. Even Protestants have tradition, those who say not are blind. The question is whether Catholic Tradition should be viewed as equal to Scripture (ie shares equal authority with), of God but subordinate to Scripture and the Spirit (how can it not be), or simply (in whole or in part) of Man. The reformers' position (Luther, Calvin) were much more nuanced than most Protestants realize or appreciate and it's not clear how they would respond to the modern RC church.
 
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Albion

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That IS the claim. One problem is that it doesn't work the way the theory says it does; and another is that there's no reason to think that if something that's not Biblical has been believed since the beginning that this defines the truth in any case. Find something that goes back to the beginning like that and you've proven that it's an idea that goes back to the beginning, that's all.
 
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Chandler50

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Okay. I can see that. But many who are not in the Church have the view that Holy Tradition is somehow in animus against the Sacred Scriptures. That was what I was addressing.
Yes, any tradition that is anti-biblical is heretical. Similarly, if someone places holy tradition higher then scripture, or vice versa, that is a heresy as well.
 
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Chandler50

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66 books are inspired by God and the rest not. I chose the 66, alone
Is that a fact? Lol.
On what basis did you choose the 66?
How do you know they are inspired?
Did God tell you which books He wrote?
How can we trust you?

The point is the Catholic Church determined the canon, you simply inherited it. If the Church did not establish a canon you would have no idea which books to recognize as authoritative. Churches all of the places had various books and letters they thought were authoritative and it turns out they were not. I have a feeling you would have fallen into the that category.
 
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Chandler50

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Well we have to remember the initial intent of Luther was reformation, not apostasy. The funny thing is, most of the things he aimed to reform were not official teachings of the Church, but local heresy. I think that Luther if he were to see the tremendous break of the universal church, and the endless denominations of Protestantism that he would rethink his methods. No good has come of it.
 
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Chandler50

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Tradition does not define truth, the Holy Spirit defines truth, and the method is through Holy Tradition. What other alternative is there for the Holy Spirit to speak to us? Another revelation of scripture? No, he speaks though the Christ established Church.
 
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Job8

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Nope, sinner believed cause sinner was first regenerated.
Since God wants all men to be saved, then all should be regenerated, and then all should receive the faith to believe. Isn't that the logical outcome? Except it is an illusion (or to put it bluntly a delusion).
 
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Standing Up

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No, for RC, it is the Magisterium that defines their truth, using a melding of scripture and tradition. Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what will come out of it.
 
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BobRyan

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QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68578012, member: 235244"]Nothing in Christ's statement to the magisterium in Mark 7 claims "this is not from scripture but from the church".

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Nor does Christ make the circular argument "your doctrine is unholy because it is unholy" -

This is a "not so subtle point" that keeps getting glossed over. circular arguments don't work.

Nor does Christ say "you do not have your scripture confirmed by an outside source"

Nor does Christ say "ignore the scripture I am quoting to prove you are in error"

We are talking about slamming the traditions of the church via the Mark 7 method - sola scriptura - where it is found to be in conflict with the Word of God.

I have not identified a single tradition of the Jews or the RCC in my comments - I merely point to the sola scriptura testing model used by Christ to slam the Jewish one-true-church magisterium.

=============================

That is not rejecting all tradition - but it is submitting all tradition to the "sola scriptura" test.
It is "more than a little obvious" that all the Jewish magisterium of Christ's day viewed the tradition he was slamming "sola scriptura" as "holy tradition".

Nothing in there about "your tradition in this case is unholy... because... it is unholy" as we can all see.
Not all tradition is bad when compared to the Bible "authority" defining what is acceptable and what is not.

All/any/whatever RCC tradition that is condemned by Protestants is considered "human tradition" by definition because it contradicts the Bible.

That is "a given".
The question is how is it determined? And the answer is - it is determined to be man-made by comparing it to the Word of God - just as Jesus is doing in Mark 7.

I think both sides can see this point clearly.
It is irrefutable. Which is why I select it.
[/QUOTE]


Apparently you have not read any other posts. If you are going to make a claim such as all Catholic traditions are 'unbiblical' you need to reference that claim.

I simply point out that in Mark 7 Christ is using sola scriptura just as all non-Catholics say it should be applied.

I do not adhere to a random person spouting their opinions, that is why I left Protestantism.

Do you consider Christ in Mark 7 to be a "random person spouting their opinions"???

In Christ,

Bob
 
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Goatee

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What gets me about all this is that people who rely on 'Just' the Bible, and not 'Tradition' as we Catholics do, dont realise that the Bible itself has been written via 'Tradition'. The Holy spirit working through man! Why should it be any different since the Bible was put together?

The Holy spirit did not desert everyone once the Bible was put together!! The Holy spirit continues!!
 
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Bassmode

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Mate the reason you think scripture is not sufficient in its self is because you read a corrupt version of the Bible. Also Timothy 3:16-17 says that ALL SCRIPTURE is profitable for the man of GOD ! The word of God is more powerful than a two edged sword
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Also God cannot lie Titus 1:2 but rather men are full of lies
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

instead of believing Gods word you are fulfilling these verses
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
 
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Chandler50

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No, for RC, it is the Magisterium that defines their truth, using a melding of scripture and tradition. Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what will come out of it.
Magisterium is lead by the Holy Spirit. By the way, have you found any teaching by the Mageisterium that is explicitly anti-biblical yet?
 
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