Refusing to fight

I had a lengthy discussion with a young man online about joining the military and the draft.

Now personally the draft makes me nervous, however likely or unlikely it is.

So what is the possible punishment if I am drafted and I refuse to fight?

First of all, I do not believe that the draft will be reinstituted. If they're feeding you that load of crap in college (which they tried to do to me), don't believe it so easily.

And, if on the off chance that it is, it is your duty as an American citizen to protect our country, which in some cases may mean fighting, if not dying, for your country.

I'm not sure what the punishment would be (or was in the past) for draft dodgers, but one thing you will definately lose is my respect (as well as certain other people's as well). Worse case senario, you get drafter, you go to war, and you give your life for defending your country. In the words of Gunnery Sergeant Dan Daly, "Do you want to live forever?"

Also, there are plenty of other things you can do to help out the military other than combat fighting. I mean, you'll learn how to fight if the need arises, but you might get an MOS as a mechanic or something.

Traditionally,
There is people that don't meet physical requirements.
I forget what these are called. 4f?

There is also those people that refuse to fight,
called conscientious objector(CO). Which means you feel you can not kill another person in any situation.
This will be posted in your records, and on any background check it will be revealed.

As far as I know there is no punishment for going this route.
But there must have been some bad stigma associated with it, because alot of people broke the law avoiding the draft rather then take this route, in the Vietnam war.

CO's take a stand and openly admit their postition, so I
respect them more then people fleeing from military service. But I would not want to look at my kids and tell them I refused to serve my country when they needed me. But thats me, I served my country, by volunteering to serve, with no war in sight and knowing I could be called to go into hostile areas, at any time.
It's all a matter of how peoples respect will affect your life. I doubt being a CO in these days will cause much
embarrassment. But you will have to live with it.

Dear Steezie. I can't give you an US perspective, but during the Cold War from about 1960 to 1994, we had National Service (Draft). Let me put it this way - it is not as scary as people make it out to be. The movies make it much more than it really is. here was the South African perspective (Check some of my other posts for more details on this.)

National Servicemen were rated RE health + Psychological as follows:
G1K1 = Can do combat in combat unit, can be far from home (include shipboard for navy)
G3K2 = Secondary roles, yet can also be far from medical centres.
G4K4 = Must stay near medical centre if requiring treatment
G5K5 = cannot be called up

Being G1K1 did not mean that you would be in a combat unit. I was G1K1 and was a medic.

For every combatant, there had to be seven others who were in secondary roles to back him up in the field. So the chances of you being a combatant in a forward position, especially as the US has such a large population is probably very small. (minute!)

There are many things you could do: medic, driver, admin, etc

As call-up/draft was part of law, not arriving for duty would be a criminal offence. National Service was two years plus "camps"(territorial army in UK, National Guard in US?) As far as I can make out no Conscientious Objectors were ever given off. Either they applied for Merchant Navy or Prison services, etc, or they were in Military Prison for THREE years.

Can I say that the war you guys are fighting is similar to the counter-insurgency war that was fought in Angola. This means the following. It's not a case of going in, nailing an objective, the war ends and everybody goes back home. This is something where there will always be enemies lurking in the bush. They will be unseen, part civilian population, striking when nobody expects, joining the side they fear more than the side that is ethically nice.

We could react to this by saying, "Naw, I don't think I like this war," but reality will be that there will be no choice - not because draft would be made law, but because in the end you HAVE TO survive. It will be nasty at times - people back home might at times not support you because it may involve civilians, but they might not even realise that THEIR survival might be at stake.

The question you asked is a serious ethical question - maybe even to the point of VOLUNTEERING or not. I hope this answer helps you.

Just to give further light on the subject: Of combatants in counter-insurgency war, only a few come under fire or actually make hits. Most of the time, you never see the enemy - he or she are part and parcel of the civilian popualtion in which you would have your garrison. This makes it especially tricky, as they have nothing to lose, and you have everything to lose: eg. A market place, 3 persons with concealed weapons incl: AK 47, RPG, Makarov pistol. They have taken up 3 positions, your jeep with four guys have stopped to look at the market. In the market are hundreds of people buying and selling, and the enemy is unseen, spread deep within these people. The 3 persons include A young boy of 15 (maybe even younger), a man of about 45, and a woman aged 21 with a baby on her back. At a given signal they synchronise attack. Within seconds it will all be over. (And you won't be given a fair chance). Who do you shoot first? (Please don't answer that one!)

Situations like this might one day have the public saying, "Let's get our boys out of there", but reality says this, "Do you want another 9/11?" If not, then the tricky patrols in a foreign country are absolutely no choice.

There are plenty of pen-and-paper-pushers in the military. If you were in, you'd be taught to kill, but your MOS could easily be non-combat. Medics, cooks, engineers, tech support, chaplain, film producer, and pretty much a counterpart for most civilian jobs.

First of all, I do not believe that the draft will be reinstituted. If they're feeding you that load of crap in college (which they tried to do to me), don't believe it so easily.

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Its very unrealistic at this point to expect the reinstitution of the draft. Any mention is likely used for paranoia and political purposes(like that documentary that said earth has 10 years left).

Balko said:

Its very unrealistic at this point to expect the reinstitution of the draft. Any mention is likely used for paranoia and political purposes(like that documentary that said earth has 10 years left).

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Yep.

And what's even more pathetic is when professors humor this idea.

One of my teachers is a vietnam veteran. If you must be trained in a combat position , but don't wanna fight, join something like airforce, or navy, or a maybe coast guard.

The way it was done in South Africa, and is probably the way they would do it in about in military system is this:

BASICS: Yopu arrive at a base via train etc. PTI's (drill sgts) scream swearwords at you. You are herded on to trucks, shown how to make beds, drill (all morning), PT (all afternoon), RUN (all day), musketry (how to celean and operate an assault rifle), bush craft - this is "Camo- Cream" and leopard crawl. Stand lots of inspections.

DRIVERS PHASE: This is after basics - most units would do this.

MEDICAL PHASE: only medics do this (in general, depending on what branch or unit you belong to this would be specialising.)

If infantry, then it would be
Fire and Movement (covering and firing)
Setting a Temporary Base
Setting an Ambush
Operating weapons eg. RPG etc.
(Navy would have there own thing, and within that there would be specialist training, eg gunnery school).

Movies give people the false impression that most people (if not everyone) goes infantry - reality is very different.

Billnew said:

There is also those people that refuse to fight,
called conscientious objector(CO). Which means you feel you can not kill another person in any situation.

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Sort of. The military defines a Conscientious Objection as "A firm, fixed and sincere objection to participation in war in any form or the bearing of arms, because of religious training and belief." However, "religious" is used in the loosest sense to mean any moral/ethical belief that is the equivalent of a religious belief. There are 2 categories of objector: 1-0, who objects to participating in any war in any capacity; 1-A-0, who objects to bearing arms but is willing to serve as a non-compatant (medical personel). You can enlist in the Medical Corps as a 1-A-0 objector. But if you initially claim 1-0 you cannot compromise with 1-A-0.

This will be posted in your records, and on any background check it will be revealed.

As far as I know there is no punishment for going this route.

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Correct.

But there must have been some bad stigma associated with it, because alot of people broke the law avoiding the draft rather then take this route, in the Vietnam war.

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There's no stigma, it's just hard to get. Not everyone can claim CO status. Note that it must be against ALL wars and as a part of a sincerely held religious/moral belief. You have to show that you're not just claiming it because you were drafted or about to be sent to combat. Just being a member of a religion that preaches Conscientious Objection (Quakers, Amish, JW etc) is not enough...you have to show you personally believe it. By the same token, just because your religion does not preach CO does not mean you can't claim it.

The most famous CO was Sgt Alvin York. After being drafted for WWI, he applied for CO status because his reading of the Bible convinced him that war in any form was wrong. His commander gave him leave to reconsider and eventually convinced him that war was not always wrong. Sgt York became the most decorated US soldier of WWI.

I'm guessing nowadays they would put you as a doctor or a non fighting position.

Back when my Dad was in the army (Vietnam war) you would be put in the war and if you got killed because you did not fight, you got killed. No Q's asked.

Moana said:

I'm guessing nowadays they would put you as a doctor or a non fighting position.

Back when my Dad was in the army (Vietnam war) you would be put in the war and if you got killed because you did not fight, you got killed. No Q's asked.

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Chances are you could get away without fighting and not get killed because so many other people are shooting or you can shoot to keep there heads down but not to hit anyone. You could also go to Canada.

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Just wanted to send out a reminder to those posting here....

This is NOT the political debate forum. Leave politics out of here and if you want to start a debate, please take it there.

Future posts that are of debating nature will be removed from this thread immediately. If you have any questions please pm me.

Thank you

I have a question related to this thread:

Now,let's say that there was a draft and I was selected. Is it possible for me to decline going in the enlisted route and, instead, become an officer? I know I would have to apply to ROTC or OCS, but is it possible to avoid being pulled in as an enlisted man and go in as an officer iin a state of national emergency?

SH89 said:

I have a question related to this thread:

Now,let's say that there was a draft and I was selected. Is it possible for me to decline going in the enlisted route and, instead, become an officer? I know I would have to apply to ROTC or OCS, but is it possible to avoid being pulled in as an enlisted man and go in as an officer iin a state of national emergency?

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Yes, They will be giving ASVBS just like they do now and that will help them place people accordingly.

ChristianMilitaryWife said:

Yes, They will be giving ASVBS just like they do now and that will help them place people accordingly.

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But the ASVBS is for enlisted personnel. . . .

Do you mean that if one is sleected for the draft and scores exceptionally well on the ASVBS, he will be eligible to become an officer?

I thought college students have an exemption from the draft like in Vietnam? Has that policy changed?

I don't mind serving at all(I used to want to make the military a career as an officer;I have recently changed my mind,though)

If there was a draft, I would use my 1 semester exemption as time to get into an ROTC as soon as possible. Therefore I can complete my education and serve. But do you need to get the a ROTC scholarship, or can you just be a part of a unit? In the Navy, you need to have a NROTC scholarship to recieve a commission.