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R.J.S
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Are you a reformed dispensationalist? (Calvinist in soteriology and dispensational in eschatology)
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R.J.S said:
How can a Calvinist who believes that Christ is in control of all things and all things are under His power and authority be a Dispensationalist who believes that Satan is the god of this world and Christ is exiled to heaven until the end?
How can Christ be in total control of our salvation and not be in total control of this world?
That doesn't make sense because they are opposite views.
GLJCA
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But I wnat to see how many there are out here Tractor1
Liberalism has taken the place of Persecution.
GLJCA said:
For your consideration.
The Bible teaches that Satan was judged in the cross (John 12:31; 16:11; Heb. 2:14), but as to its immediate results a distinction should be drawn between a judgment which in legal nature hasn't been executed, and the final administering of the penalty. Scripture shows the sentence hasn't been executed at the present time since throughout this dispensation Satan is given the designations "the prince of the power of the air" (Eph. 2:2), and "the god of this world" (2 Cor. 4:4). Evidently God permitts Satan to continue in his role until the time of his execution.
The above is not without precedence as an illustration of Satan's present relation to this world can be taken from the history of Saul and David. David, who is a type of Christ, wasn't in control of the kingdom immediately after his annointing. For a period of time Saul reigned although he was under divine sentence, and David was the God appointed king. Similarly, now is a period in which Satan rules, though under divine sentence, and the actual occupation of the Davidic throne by Christ is still future.
In Christ,
Tracey
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____GLJCA said:
Human "logic"! Logic is correct reasoning. The definition says nothing of about one coming to a true and valid conclusion. You may reason correctly, but still come to the wrong conclusion. Logic that does not bring a valid conclusion can still pass for logic. That is, the logic may be correct in the chain of reasoning, but the conclusion is false either because the reasoning is based on unproved assumptions, or lack of information. Too many trust their "logic"/brain more than the testimony of scripture.
Before one can come to a "logical" conclusion, using a 'line of reasoning", there must be a basis, or "support", for the reasoning=a premise= a fact or assumption that is the foundational basis for the argument. The inherent weakness in "human logic" is that it hinges on the validity of the premise. Wrong premise=wrong conclusion. And since man is not all knowing,and sees only partially, anything he reasons can be in error, even if his system of logic is correct and he believes his premise is correct. Obviously, if man knew everything, there would be no need to reason-everything would already be known.
Man tends to trust his own feeble reasoning above many clear statements of scripture=they are their own authority. God reasons only with man for his benefit, not His own, trying to persuade him to follow the truth of scripture. The scriptures, which are without error, and are the truth, don't need to "reason out" or "logically deduce" its truths. The Holy Bible makes plain, clear, "5th grade English" statements that can either be believed or not believed/disregarded. 1 Cor. 15:1-4 can either be be believed or denied-believe the scripture's testimony("...according to the scriptures....")'and live; ignore it and die. In either case, "logic" is not needed.
The statement "who believes that Satan is the god of this world and Christ is exiled to heaven until the end?.....How can Christ be in total control of our salvation and not be in total control of this world?", from a wordly, "scholarly", "logical" perspective, looks "reasonable". But from a divine perpective, from scripture, it is nonsense. Isahiah 55:8,9 is my answer. He does not think like man thinks, and His ways are not man's ways("humanistic reasoning"). The LORD God does not always "work" within our predefined, narrow, "logical" parameters.
Your premise/assumption is wrong. Does the scripture testify that Satan is the god this world? Yes, it does. Does scripture testify that Christ is in exile, i.e., not ruling this world today? Yes, it does(a study of king David as a "type" of the Lord Jesus Christ, a king in "exile" would be profitable). Does most of this world reject the Lord Jesus Christ? Yes, it does. Is he currently reigning as "...KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS..."(Rev. 19:16), ruling with a rod of iron on earth from Jerusalem? No, He is not, and does not. Is the LORD God still in control? Yes, He most assuredly is.
Again, scripture testifies that Satan is the god of this world, as most of this this world is under Satanic influence. This is the scripture's testimony. The Lord Jesus Christ acknowledged this truth numerous times. But this in no way denies His sovereignity. I accept both of these truths, with a complete admission that I do not understand it with my human "logic". But I accept it. Yes, I believe it, and will not embrace secular human reasoning to dismiss it, or understand it.
There are hundreds of examples in scripture of how God's will is often "illogical" to man(space does not permit citing these hundreds). God's methods are without flaw, immutable, and perfectly logical and reasonable according to His nature(Numbers 23:19, Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 6:17, 18...........) However, man's logic is often flawed(Is. 1:18, Jer. 17:5.......). And thus, to feeble man, the LORD God's methods often seem to be "illogical." Man thus "reasons" himself into unbelief, and many times, blasphemy, as he places the God of heaven in subjection to his understanding of "logic."
I contend that true logic must be defined with God as the absolute standard, the "bar", if you will. I reject independence from the written testimony of the Holy Bible, which is equivalent to what God has said, and reject the notion that this word must conform to my view of it to be "logical" or worthy of consideration(which is purely a humanistic mind set).
" That doesn't make sense because they are opposite views."
By this "human logic", devoid of any consideration that the LORD God has a PLAN and PURPOSE for everything He does and allows(Eph. 1:11), including allowing Satan to be the god of this world presently,and including just spending a few verses explaining our "origin", and the rest of the Holy Bible focusing on our redemption, and not explaing where He "came from"(which, to man is a "logical" and "reasonable" question), then the following "does not make sense":
The Trinity-"... The LORD our God is one LORD..."(Deut. 6:4, Mark 12:29) is an "opposite view" of God the Father being called LORD, Jesus Christ being called LORD, and the Holy Spirit being called LORD
The Spirit world
The human soul
Eternity
Why He allowed man to fall, with the resulting iniquity that is mankind's legacy
Why "six days" instead of creating it all in "flash"?
Why propitiation by blood?
Why was Job allowed to suffer? And guess who was "logical" by human standards? Job's "friends", and his wife, and their faulty human reasoning!
God does not spend wasted time in the Holy Bible explaining matters that He deems man has no need to know, or cannot comprehend. He gives us what we need, not what we want. And what He has chosen to reveal to man does not always follow man's "logical framework." But we are commanded to believe it.
Ah, "human logic"! Was not Eve's eating from the forbidden tree "logically" derived? Was not Peter "logical" in Mt. 16: 22?: "Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee"(attempting to prevent the Lord Jesus Christ's death). And on and on and.....
I have said enough. But, "...What I have written I have written"(John 19:22).
In Christ,
John M. Whalen
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_____________Tractor1 said:
Tracey:
Once again, "...Thou hast spoken well..."(Exodus 10:29). I alluded to your David type in my post(but not as eloquently as you just did!). Once again, "bull's eye"!
In Christ,
John M. Whalen
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- Jun 26, 2004
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Tractor1 said:
I think we can agree that Satan is the strong man Jesus was speaking of in Mark 3:27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
When did Jesus spoil the strong man's house? At His death, burial and resurrection. This is where Christ took back the keys to death and hell(Rev 1:8) Paul called Satan the "god of this world" because he is the god of those who are lost. He effectively hides the gospel from them because they are his subjects or slaves. Satan can not stop the gospel from reaching those who are ordained to eternal life.
I can see how you may come to the conclusion comparing David with Jesus, Tracey, but it was never said that David had all power and all authority while he was running from Saul. It was obvious that he didn't.
Jesus, on the other hand, said himself that all power and authority in heaven and earth was given to him. (Matt 28:18)
Peter amongst many others quoted, the most quoted verse in the bible, Psa 110:1 showing that Christ was seated on David's throne at the right hand of the father until all of His enemies are made His footstool. This shows that Christ is reigning on His throne already. It also shows that Christ will not return until His enemies are conquered. This is different from the Dispy belief that Christ will come back on a white horse and a sword will come out of his mouth and he will destroy his enemies and rule over the world with a rod of iron. Except that he will not be able to stop the Jews from offering animal sacrifices for their sins which completely slaps His perfect sacrifice in the face. A belief that completely astonishes me.
GLJCA
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JMWHALEN said:
What you have done is to say that my logic is wrong but your logic is right. Let me show you what I am talking about.
No it doesn't.You are making a logical assumption based on that? Yet you throw out all of the other scriptures that contradict it.
Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Eph 1:20-22 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places], Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church,
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
So let me get this right because of one scripture your logic says that Christ is exiled and Satan is the one in control of this world is right. My logic on the other hand is wrong even though it glorfies God and is based on many more scriptures. SURE.
JM the Bible does not contradict itself. Jesus can't be in control of all things while Satan is in control of this world, or else Jesus is not in control of all things. Jesus can not have all things under His feet as Paul says He does if Satan is the god of this world. Your logic is contradictory while mine follows scripture.
The term "god of this world" is not speaking of the earth but the lost that are his subjects or slaves.
Look at what some of the commentators says,
Here is Jamison, Fauset, and Brown-- god of this world--The worldly make him their God ( Phl 3:19 ). He is, in fact, "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that ruleth in the children of disobedience" ( Eph 2:2 ).
Matthew Henry says, Those are lost souls to whom the gospel is hid, or is ineffectual, v. 3. Christ came to save that which was lost (Mt. 17:11), and the gospel of Christ is sent to save such; and, if this do not find and save them, they are lost for ever; they must never expect any thing else to save them, for there is no other method or means of salvation. The hiding of the gospel therefore from souls is both an evidence and cause of their ruin. 2. The god of this world hath blinded their minds, v. 4. They are under the influence and power of the devil, who is here called the god of this world, and elsewhere the prince of this world, because of the great interest he has in this world, the homage that is paid to him by multitudes in this world, and the great sway that, by divine permission, he bears in the world, and in the hearts of his subjects, or rather slaves. And as he is the prince of darkness, and ruler of the darkness of this world, so he darkens the understandings of men, and increases their prejudices, and supports his interest by keeping them in the dark, blinding their minds with ignorance, and error, and prejudices, that they should not behold the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God.
They are both saying that the term "god of this world" is not speaking of the earth itself but those who are slaves to Satan. Those people are not ordained to eternal life and therefore have no hope. If the term meant that he was in control of this world then there would be a contradiction of scriptures but since it plainly is talking about his slaves then there is no contradiction. Yet with your logic there is a contradiction. So which logic is correct, JM?
One has more of a chance to have bad logic if his logic is derived from one source, like your's. You assume that Christ is in exile based on David's life. Yet not once in David's life was it said that he had all power and authority in his kingdom like it says that Jesus Christ does. The analogy does not hold up.
Here is another one of your assumptions that do not hold up in scripture.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
1Tim 6:14-15 That thou keep [this] commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
John saw Jesus as King of Kings and Lord of Lords because John knew that Jesus was and is in control of all things. You look at these verses as future but this was a prophecy of John for the people who lived in that day of things which should shortly come to pass.
Is Christ ruling with a rod of iron? Yes he is. Just ask Herod.
Acts 12:21-23 And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them. And the people gave a shout, [saying, It is] the voice of a god, and not of a man. And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.
Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.
The throne of Christ is forever. This was written in AD60. It doesn't say that His future throne or kingdom is forever. His kingdom is in effect today, Christ is the King over that kingdom, and we are translated into His kingdom.
The problem with your type of logic is that you don't take into effect all of the scriptures that agree and disagree with it, therefore it is faulty. You jump from the Old Testament directly to Revelation and ignore all that the New Testament says about Christ and his kingdom.
GLJCA
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JMWHALEN said:
Tell me this JM, what method do you use to determine whether a scripture in Revelation is literal or figurative? Do you use logic or what?
GLJCA
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"Psa 110:1 showing that Christ was seated on David's throne at the right hand of the father until all of His enemies..."
Wrong.
You continue to contend that "The Bible says that Christ is seated on David's throne at the right hand of the Father until His enemies are made His footstool. "
Show me where it says in Scripture that the Lord Jesus Christ is sitting on David's throne in heaven right now?(rhetorical question) He's in heaven all right, but not on David's throne. David's throne is never said to be in heaven-it is on earth.
The Lord Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of God, therefore He is currently on God the Father's throne.
The Lord Jesus Christ's throne:
"And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom." Mt. 20:21=will be on earth
"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." Rev. 3:21
In Christ,
John M. Whalen
Wrong.
You continue to contend that "The Bible says that Christ is seated on David's throne at the right hand of the Father until His enemies are made His footstool. "
Show me where it says in Scripture that the Lord Jesus Christ is sitting on David's throne in heaven right now?(rhetorical question) He's in heaven all right, but not on David's throne. David's throne is never said to be in heaven-it is on earth.
The Lord Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of God, therefore He is currently on God the Father's throne.
The Lord Jesus Christ's throne:
"And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom." Mt. 20:21=will be on earth
"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." Rev. 3:21
In Christ,
John M. Whalen
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__eph3Nine said:Amen John....amen. If people would just read what the words on the page SAY, it would save alot of trouble.
Thanks eph3Nine. The Lord Jesus Christ is in exile until He returns in wrath and power. He will not be on His own throne until His return to earth to reclaim His earthly Kingdom. And this will be done by force-a kingdom is always set up by force(vs. a church is gradually "built up"):
"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever." Daniel 2:44
The Lord Jesus will literally set His feet back on the Mount of Olives, as the angel in Acts 1 indicates. And thus Deut. 11:21 will be fufilled:
"That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers to give them, as the days of heaven upon the earth."
If these words are not to be viewed as literal, then I suggest we all "pack it in, go home, class dismissed-we can learn nothing from each other, and we can teaching each other nothing."
In Christ,
John M. Whalen
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eph3Nine
Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!
John stated the crux of the matter quite succinctly:
If scripture says that satan is the god of this world, then guess what? He is. God ultimately has control over all, but in His wisdom, he has allowed satan to usurp His right to rule and reign, for a season. This is what the WHOLE of the Bible is all about. Gods plan to RE ESTABLISH His rule and reign in both heaven AND earth, where satan has usurped and is currently enjoying his role as "being LIKE the most High God". Dont worry, it wont last long, Ive read the end of the book!
Yee haw!
If scripture says that satan is the god of this world, then guess what? He is. God ultimately has control over all, but in His wisdom, he has allowed satan to usurp His right to rule and reign, for a season. This is what the WHOLE of the Bible is all about. Gods plan to RE ESTABLISH His rule and reign in both heaven AND earth, where satan has usurped and is currently enjoying his role as "being LIKE the most High God". Dont worry, it wont last long, Ive read the end of the book!
Yee haw!
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"The throne of Christ is forever. This was written in AD60. It doesn't say that His future throne or kingdom is forever. His kingdom is in effect today, Christ is the King over that kingdom, and we are translated into His kingdom"
"He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." Luke 1:32-33
"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever." Daniel 2:44
On earth, sir. A literal, physical, earthly kingdom will be set up by force by the LORD God.
Logic? Since you fail to rightly divide, you cannot, and will not, distinguish from the Body of Christ's calling/reign to be in the heavenlies, with spiritual blessings, not physical, and not on earth, vs. Israel's calling/reign will be on earth, with their promised physical blessings. "...we are translated into His kingdom" Yes, we are considered spiritually delivered into his heavenly now, not Israel's earthly, kingdom, merely awaiting the redemption of our bodies to reign in the heavenlies. You are not Israel, sir, and have no reign on earth, and none of Israel's land is yours:
"That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers to give them, as the days of heaven upon the earth." Deut. 11:21
In Christ,
John M. Whalen
"He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." Luke 1:32-33
"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever." Daniel 2:44
On earth, sir. A literal, physical, earthly kingdom will be set up by force by the LORD God.
Logic? Since you fail to rightly divide, you cannot, and will not, distinguish from the Body of Christ's calling/reign to be in the heavenlies, with spiritual blessings, not physical, and not on earth, vs. Israel's calling/reign will be on earth, with their promised physical blessings. "...we are translated into His kingdom" Yes, we are considered spiritually delivered into his heavenly now, not Israel's earthly, kingdom, merely awaiting the redemption of our bodies to reign in the heavenlies. You are not Israel, sir, and have no reign on earth, and none of Israel's land is yours:
"That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers to give them, as the days of heaven upon the earth." Deut. 11:21
In Christ,
John M. Whalen
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Tractor1
Liberalism has taken the place of Persecution.
GLJCA said:
In my estimation you're missing the point of Peter's argument. To say that Jesus, by being seated at the right hand of the Father, is now seated on the throne of David is making a theological statement that is found nowhere in the New Testament.
In (Acts 2:22-32) Peter is arguing for the resurrection of Christ by using (Ps. 16:8-11). The fact that the theme of this passage is Jesus' resurrection can be seen by the continual use "God raised Him up again" in verses 24 and 32. Peter makes clear the Psalm passage is predictive of Jesus, just as Paul does in (Acts 13:34-37). The reference to (Ps. 132:11) in (Acts 2:30) isn't used to say that Jesus is currently on David's throne, but that Christ is the One who will sit there. The future King was to be incorruptable and human, therefore, it was necessary for Him to be resurrected.
In (Acts 2:33-36) the emphasis is on Christ's ascension and current session in heaven, not on David's throne. He was the One who poured forth the promise of the Holy Spirit in keeping with His words in (John 14:16, 15:26, and 16:7). Peter quotes (Ps. 110:1) to defend the doctrine, proving that Jesus is Lord and Messiah. The passage says nothing of Christ being seated on David's throne.
In Christ,
Tracey
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