Reformed and Pentecostal?

[River-Dweller]

I would describe myself as Reformed and Pentecostal. It has taken me a long time to get here. However, looking back, I can see that I have been on this trajectory since I got saved for real ten years ago.

I was raised Pentecostal (Assemblies of God). I didn't know what Reformed theology was growing up, I just knew that my parents weren't really comfortable with passages like Ephesians 1 and Romans 9. If I asked them about those passages, they would give me an answer such as "We don't believe that way." or "That's not really what that means." I always knew that the Bible taught total predestination, I just didn't want to accept it at first. Just like I did in so many other areas of my life, I ran from God in this area. But, I've leanred that you can't run from God. He'll chase you down.

So, long story short, here I am serving at a Pentecostal church (Church of God, Cleveland, TN) and I am Reformed. I know that some people would say that you can't be Reformed and be Pentecostal. But, why not? Pentecostalism has its roots in Methodism and one of the founders of Methodism, George Whitefield, was Reformed. Also, the Azusa Street revival of 1906 is recognized by many to be the start of the modern Pentecostal movement. But, the Azusa Street revival was sparked by the Welsh revival which was led by a Calvinistic Methodist by the name of Evan Roberts.

The Assemblies of God says that they are between the extremes of Calvinism and Arminianism. But, there are some Pentecostals that are consciously and decidedly Wesleyan-Arminian such as Dr. Mark Rutland who was the president of Southeastern University when I was there and who I have tremendous respect for.

The early Pentecostals were usually either Wesleyan or Baptist. So, why didn't the Baptist theology stick with at least some in the Pentecostal movement?

I believe in holiness as a lifestyle just like the Puritans did. I think that fits with Pentecostal theology and practice. I speak in tongues everyday. I also believe that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is an experience subsequent to salvation and that tongues is the initial evidence of that experience. I believe that someone who once followed Christ sincerely can end up in hell. I would just say that they were never actually born again. You can be sincere and be sincerely wrong.

R.T. Kendall has called himself a "Pentecostal Calvinist" and Charisma Magazine frequently features articles from Dr. Kendall. I disagree with Kendall's once saved always saved stance, but I am grateful that someone has opened the door for dialogue concerning soteriology. Anyway, those are some of my thoughts. I would like to hear what you think about this issue. Thanks.

 

[GarrickBrewer]

I realy think that a pentacostal calvanist is kind of an ironic statement, they are realy on oposite ends of the spectrum in some cases. The calvanist beleif is that evryone will go to hell unless you are one of the few people chose by god who will go to heaven. Jesus died ONLY so those few can go to heaven, and if you ARE one of those chosen, you could kill someone and go to heaven, which contradict the pentacostal beleifs that Jesus died for ALL people and that only through faith in him can you go to heaven. And you realy cant say you didnt mean those points of calvanism because John calvin wrote those as the main points to calvanism.

As for the rest of it, that is just what pentacostalism is, it does put a strong emphasis on walking the walk, and living like you are supposed to, not just saying you are, that is the way with almost any fundemental christian denomination.

 

[River-Dweller]

Yeah. I think there's a lot of misunderstanding however when it comes to the beliefs of Calvinism. Many of the greatest evangelists and missionaries in history were Calvinists. Even the Assemblies of God admits in their position statements that a lot of times Calvinists put non-Calvinists to shame when it comes to winning the lost.

I'm not saying that I'm a great soulwinner or anything like that, but I do try to witness to people around me any time I get the chance. I don't think Reformed theology is so harsh when you really sit down and look at it. To me, it seems to be what the Bible teaches. Francis Chan has been speaking at Church of God (Cleveland, TN) events like Winterfest and he is Reformed. And, LifeWay missiologist Ed Stetzer has also been speaking at conferences sponsored by the Church of God and the Assemblies of God and he is Reformed. There are a lot of other Reformed people that I've noticed catching the attention of Pentecostals like Chris Tomlin, Louie Giglio, Rick Warren, Beth Moore, Michael Youssef Tony Evans, and Priscilla Shirer. Also, a lot young Pentecostals like me listen to Christian Hip-Hop and many of the popular Christ-centered Hip-Hop artists right now such as Lecrae, Flame, Tedashii, Trip Lee, and Jai are Reformed.

Thanks for responding. It's always good to get some feedback on stuff like this.

In His service,

Jared Hanley

 

[dayhiker]

Good to see your thinking about the scriptures as much as you are River.

I'm very much for free will personally. But having read a lot of Christian material over th years, its pretty clear to me that believers can mix and match about any set of doctrines and they make sense to them even if not someone else.

I think the baptism in the Holy Spirit stands on its own pretty easily no mater what other doctrines a person believes. In the Charismatic movement it was experiences in every denomination I think.

 

[GarrickBrewer]

Dont get me wrong I love calvinism, the strict life style devouted to God is something I want, but its things like the predstination that I disagree with.

 

[Big Drew]

I don't see why one can't be both...personally, I'm Wesleyan-Armninian in my soteriology, as most Pentecostals are...but Pentecostal doctrine is specifically dealing with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit...which is what separates us from other Charismatics...so for someone to be Reformed and Pentecostal...while not common, doesn't seem completely off the wall.

 

[Vince53]

Big Drew, you understand that the Bible teaches that Christians are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, and are predestined to the adoption of sons. Period.

Predestination to Heaven, predestination to Hell, predestination to accept Christ, and predestination to reject Christ are philosophies of men.

 

[GarrickBrewer]

Vince said it exactly right.

 

[River-Dweller]

I'm not going to be drawn into an argument. I know the truth and I don't have to have people agree with me to find affirmation. I know what the Bible teaches and there are other Pentecostals who are on the same page with me.

 

[lilmissmontana]

I don't see why one can't be both...personally, I'm Wesleyan-Armninian in my soteriology, as most Pentecostals are...but Pentecostal doctrine is specifically dealing with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit...which is what separates us from other Charismatics...so for someone to be Reformed and Pentecostal...while not common, doesn't seem completely off the wall.

I agree, Drew ...

I'm reminded ... God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit, and in truth.

we should be worshipping Him ... not some man's ideology or traditions or theologies ... He is not bound by man's view ... and if he lives in us, then we aren't bound by it, either ... Christ's teachings is what's important ...

 

[lilmissmontana]

just putting this straight up front ... with the understanding that this is a hot topic that many love to argue and debate ...

House Rules-
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here (Community Rules). In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic.

 

[River-Dweller]

just putting this straight up front ... with the understanding that this is a hot topic that many love to argue and debate ...

House Rules-
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here (Community Rules). In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic.

How can I join? I'm a member of a Pentecostal church. It's the Clinton Church of God (Cleveland, TN) in Clinton, TN. My wife and I just joined that church. And I was raised in an Assembly of God church and attended a Pentecostal university, Southeastern University of the Assemblies of God.

 

[PeterVonVerkannt]

The Apostolic Church of Pentecost in Canada is a good mix of pentecostalism and reformed theology. The only matter is their unclear position on the Trinity : they tend to be in between...

 

[Stephen-Australia]

I would describe myself as Reformed and Pentecostal. It has taken me a long time to get here. However, looking back, I can see that I have been on this trajectory since I got saved for real ten years ago.

So, long story short, here I am serving at a Pentecostal church (Church of God, Cleveland, TN) and I am Reformed. I know that some people would say that you can't be Reformed and be Pentecostal. But, why not? Pentecostalism has its roots in Methodism and one of the founders of Methodism, George Whitefield, was Reformed. Also, the Azusa Street revival of 1906 is recognized by many to be the start of the modern Pentecostal movement. But, the Azusa Street revival was sparked by the Welsh revival which was led by a Calvinistic Methodist by the name of Evan Roberts.

I believe in holiness as a lifestyle just like the Puritans did. I think that fits with Pentecostal theology and practice. I speak in tongues everyday. I also believe that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is an experience subsequent to salvation and that tongues is the initial evidence of that experience. I believe that someone who once followed Christ sincerely can end up in hell. I would just say that they were never actually born again. You can be sincere and be sincerely wrong.

I too came to faith and attended a Pentecostal Church; I truly thank God for that - because it taught me to expect God to move just like He did in the New Testament?

Sadly, I saw excesses too, non-biblical acts; that were not God honouring - but won't detail those here. So, I withdrew to a Baptist church, later a Reformed Church - seeking solid bible based teaching.

Because of those excesses, I actually became Cessationist - believing that the spiritual gifts no longer were in operation?

Despite solid teaching and doctrine, I ended even further from Him, and became totally backslidden!
In that, there were years of pain, depression, suicidal thoughts and more.....

But then God! He broke back into my life in ways that made me feel as though I was born-again; again!

I began to speak in tongues again, as led by Him, to prophesy, had love and zeal for Him as never before! I was alive again!

Reformed Theology is solid and totally biblical - (pretty well all of it); but attempting to deny the Holy Spirit, His power and gifts today - is wrong! This grieves and quenches Him, making for almost powerless Reformed churches.

But, and here's my big concern - many Pentecostal have lost respect for the Word of God; proper doctrine, things being done decently and in order? This too grieves, quenches, and makes for quite powerless churches?

We - must become LESS - He must become MORE!

 

[quietbloke]

I too came to faith and attended a Pentecostal Church; I truly thank God for that - because it taught me to expect God to move just like He did in the New Testament?

Sadly, I saw excesses too, non-biblical acts; that were not God honouring - but won't detail those here. So, I withdrew to a Baptist church, later a Reformed Church - seeking solid bible based teaching.

Because of those excesses, I actually became Cessationist - believing that the spiritual gifts no longer were in operation?

Despite solid teaching and doctrine, I ended even further from Him, and became totally backslidden!
In that, there were years of pain, depression, suicidal thoughts and more.....

But then God! He broke back into my life in ways that made me feel as though I was born-again; again!

I began to speak in tongues again, as led by Him, to prophesy, had love and zeal for Him as never before! I was alive again!

Reformed Theology is solid and totally biblical - (pretty well all of it); but attempting to deny the Holy Spirit, His power and gifts today - is wrong! This grieves and quenches Him, making for almost powerless Reformed churches.

But, and here's my big concern - many Pentecostal have lost respect for the Word of God; proper doctrine, things being done decently and in order? This too grieves, quenches, and makes for quite powerless churches?

We - must become LESS - He must become MORE!

God bless and keep you!

 

[Stephen-Australia]

God bless and keep you!

Thanks so much - He does, in fact the Aaronic blessing is how I pray often, for myself, friends and especially my enemies.

‘May the LORD bless you and protect you. May the LORD smile on you and be gracious to you. May the LORD show you His favour and give you His peace.’

Numbers 6:24-26
(New Living Translation)

Stephen

 

[rocknanchor]

I withdrew to a Baptist church, later a Reformed Church - seeking solid bible based teaching.

Because of those excesses, I actually became Cessationist - believing that the spiritual gifts no longer were in operation?

Despite solid teaching and doctrine, I ended even further from Him, and became totally backslidden!
In that, there were years of pain, depression, suicidal thoughts and more.....

But then God! He broke back into my life in ways that made me feel as though I was born-again; again!

I began to speak in tongues again, as led by Him, to prophesy, had love and zeal for Him as never before! I was alive again!

Me as well. A lot of my roots are with the Baptist, friends, family. So together, we can answer the OP,

So, why didn't the Baptist theology stick with at least some in the Pentecostal movement?

Control, they just don't gravitate towards that move that disrupts their drafted protocol.

But, and here's my big concern - many Pentecostal have lost respect for the Word of God; proper doctrine, things being done decently and in order? This too grieves, quenches, and makes for quite powerless churches?

Well, the contemporary Pentecostal move has been around for many years now, a few times over my natural existence.

It isn't seen so well in a fiery small Pentecostal flock, but the large-to-mega Church settings, I would say they have chose to glory more in the polish than the ponder.

Blessings to you!

 

[Stephen-Australia]

Control, they just don't gravitate towards that move that disrupts their drafted protocol.

It isn't seen so well in a fiery small Pentecostal flock, but the large-to-mega Church settings, I would say they have chose to glory more in the polish than the ponder. Blessings to you!

For what it's worth - I see the attempt at controlling Him as the core destructive issue in the Body of Christ today, and throughout the millenia?

It is the attempt of darkness - to hide His light.

The Sovereign Lord created everything without us being there or interfering? The Old Testament clearly shows He controls everything; yes even Corona! Yet foolish man attempts to yoke Him, as if to make Him somehow servant to us, if that were even possible?

So we try to, (highlighted on purpose) tell others that He only does this or that? That our views of Him are the correct ones, i.e. making an image of Him = idolatry?

But the Old Testament (and New) are full of passages that disprove our control, calling us to submit to His Kingship, revealing that He can be trusted?

Here's just a couple scriptures that spring to mind:

Isaiah 55:8-9
My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts, says the Lord. And My ways are far beyond anything you could imagine. For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts higher than your thoughts.

Proverbs 21:1 (NLT)
The king’s heart is like a stream of water directed by the Lord; He guides it wherever He pleases.

Or for a total feast on God's Sovereignty, the entire Chapter of Job 40?

Man's intelligence and supposed control is an illusion, a mere mirage on the horizon of a spiritual desert? It is why He has given us His Word, to show us who He is and what He is really like - and that He is faithful to His children and can be totally trusted, in everything!

He is beautiful!

 

[Stephen-Australia]

The Apostolic Church of Pentecost in Canada is a good mix of pentecostalism and reformed theology. The only matter is their unclear position on the Trinity : they tend to be in between...

The teaching on the trinity is so clear Peter, not spelled out in some many words - but shown in so many ways!

What a shame (IMO) and based on your statement, that on the surface at least, they are so close, yet.....

 

[Stephen-Australia]

I agree, Drew ...

I'm reminded ... God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit, and in truth. We should be worshipping Him ... not some man's ideology or traditions or theologies ... He is not bound by man's view ... and if he lives in us, then we aren't bound by it, either ... Christ's teachings is what's important ...

True missmontana; God is a person, actually one God in three persons - how dare we attempt to tell the Creator of the Universe what He can and cannot do?

It's futile anyway - because He is still the great I Am, and we are "but dust" His creatures, clay in His hands - as Scripture often remind us?