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Redemptive Suffering

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Dominus Fidelis

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What evidence do we have for redemptive suffering? Can we document this belief historically?

I know one verse from St Paul speaks to it...

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.

What else we got? :)
 

plainswolf

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Hi DF,

I can't so much speak for historical documentation but the Catholic stance of redemptive suffering is participating in the merits of Christ. But they only have supernatural merit if done in a state of grace. Whenever we are in a state of grace, God the Father see's only the grace, the likeness, and therefore the merit of His Son Jesus Christ. This is one doctrine that is thoroughly and, I believe, exclusively Catholic.

But perhaps you may want to read the Old Testament story of Issac, Rebecca, and their two sons Jacob and Essau, there is kind of a good analogy of what I have described in that story:

Gen. 25-27 "And when her time was come to be delivered, behold twins were found in her womb. He that came forth first was red, and hairy like a skin: and his name was called Esau. Immediately the other coming forth, held his brother’s foot in his hand: and therefore he was called Jacob. Isaac was threescore years old when the children were born unto him. And when they were grown up, Esau became a skilful hunter, and a husbandman: but Jacob, a plain man, dwelt in tents. Isaac loved Esau, because he ate of his hunting: and Rebecca loved Jacob.

And Jacob boiled pottage: to whom Esau, coming faint out of the field, Said: Give me of this red pottage, for I am exceeding faint. For which reason his name was called Edom. And Jacob said to him: Sell me thy first birthright. He answered: Lo I die, what will the first birthright avail me? Jacob said: Swear therefore to me. Esau swore to him, and sold his first birthright. And so taking bread and the pottage of lentils, he ate, and drank, and went on his way; making little account of having sold his first birthright....

..Now Isaac was old, and his eyes were dim, and he could not see: and he called Esau, his elder son, and said to him: My son? And he answered: Here I am. And his father said to him, Thou seest that I am old, and know not the day of my death. Take thy arms, thy quiver, and bow, and go abroad; and when thou hast taken something by hunting, Make me a savoury meat thereof, as thou knowest I like, and bring it that I may eat: and my soul may bless thee, before I die. And when Rebecca had heard this, and he was gone into the field to fulfil his father’s commandment, She said to her son Jacob: I heard thy father talking with Esau, thy brother, and saying to him: Bring me of thy hunting, and make me meats that I may eat, and bless thee in the sight of the Lord, before I die. Now therefore, my son, follow my counsel: And go thy way to the flock, bring me two kids of the best, that I may make of them meat for thy father, such as he gladly eateth. Which when thou hast brought in, and he hath eaten, he may bless thee before he die.

And he answered her: Thou knowest that Esau, my brother, is a hairy man, and I am smooth: If my father should feel me, and perceive it, I fear lest he will think I would have mocked him, and I shall bring upon me a curse instead of a blessing. And his mother said to him: Upon me be this curse, my son: only hear thou my voice, and go, fetch me the things which I have said. He went, and brought, and gave them to his mother. She dressed meats, such as she knew his father liked. And she put on him very good garments of Esau, which she had at home with her: And the little skins of the kids she put about his hands, and covered the bare of his neck. And she gave him the savoury meat, and delivered him bread that she had baked. Which when he had carried in, he said: My father? But he answered: I hear. Who art thou, my son? And Jacob said: I am Esau, thy firstborn: I have done as thou didst command me: arise, sit and eat of my venison, that thy soul may bless me. And Isaac said to his son: How couldst thou find it so quickly, my son? He answered: It was the will of God, that what I sought came quickly in my way: And Isaac said: Come hither, that I may feel thee, my son, and may prove whether thou be my son Esau, or no. He came near to his father, and when he had felt him, Isaac said: The voice indeed is the voice of Jacob; but the hands, are the hands of Esau. And he knew him not, because his hairy hands made him like to the elder. Then blessing him, He said: Art thou my son Esau? He answered: I am. Then he said: Bring me the meats of thy hunting, my son, that my soul may bless thee. And when they were brought, and he had eaten, he offered him wine also, which after he had drunk, He said to him: Come near me, and give me a kiss, my son. He came near, and kissed him. And immediately as he smelled the fragrant smell of his garments, blessing him, he said: Behold, the smell of my son is as the smell of a plentiful field, which the Lord hath blessed. God give thee of the dew of heaven, and of the fatness of the earth, abundance of corn and wine. And let peoples serve thee, and tribes worship thee: be thou lord of thy brethren, and let thy mother’s children bow down before thee. Cursed be he that curseth thee: and let him that blesseth thee be filled with blessings.

Isaac had scarce ended his words, when, Jacob being now gone out abroad, Esau came, And brought in to his father meats, made of what he had taken in hunting, saying: Arise, my father, and eat of thy son’s venison; that thy soul may bless me. And Isaac said to him: Why! who art thou? He answered: I am thy firstborn son, Esau. Isaac was struck with fear, and astonished exceedingly; and wondering beyond what can be believed, said: Who is he then that even now brought me venison that he had taken, and I ate of all before thou camest? and I have blessed him...."


There is actually alot of things I see within this story... Notice that it's the mother who knows what the father likes, and it is she who cloaks her Jacob in the likeness of Esau..

Just as the Blessed Mother, knowing what the Father likes most, cloaks us in the grace and merits of Christ, the beloved Son of the Father.. So also and likewise, when in a state of grace and suffering, God sees the redemptive suffering of His Beloved Son Jesus Christ.

Mark
 
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PassthePeace1

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Dominus Fidelis said:
What evidence do we have for redemptive suffering? Can we document this belief historically?

I know one verse from St Paul speaks to it...

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.

What else we got? :)

This is a teaching of the church, that I would like to learn more about; it is probably the hardest one for me to understand. I accept it as true, on faith alone(;) ); but really don't understand it at a deeper level.

Does anyone have anymore thoughts or comments on this subject?

Peace be with you...Pam
 
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Sacha Saint Francis

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Fascinating parable you made there Mark, thanks for sharing :thumbsup:


Here is what the Catechism says about Redemtive Suffering:

618 The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the "one mediator between God and men". But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, "the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery" is offered to all men. He calls his disciples to "take up [their] cross and follow [him]", for "Christ also suffered for [us], leaving [us] an example so that [we] should follow in his steps." In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries. This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering.

Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven.

1502 The man of the Old Testament lives his sickness in the presence of God. It is before God that he laments his illness, and it is of God, Master of life and death, that he implores healing. Illness becomes a way to conversion; God's forgiveness initiates the healing. It is the experience of Israel that illness is mysteriously linked to sin and evil, and that faithfulness to God according to his law restores life: "For I am the Lord, your healer." The prophet intuits that suffering can also have a redemptive meaning for the sins of others. Finally Isaiah announces that God will usher in a time for Zion when he will pardon every offense and heal every illness.


< 1505 Moved by so much suffering Christ not only allows himself to be touched by the sick, but he makes their miseries his own: "He took our infirmities and bore our diseases." But he did not heal all the sick. His healings were signs of the coming of the Kingdom of God. They announced a more radical healing: the victory over sin and death through his Passover. On the cross Christ took upon himself the whole weight of evil and took away the "sin of the world," of which illness is only a consequence. By his passion and death on the cross Christ has given a new meaning to suffering: it can henceforth configure us to him and unite us with his redemptive Passion.




In pertaining to the Sacrament of the Sick it says this: 1521


1521 Union with the passion of Christ. By the grace of this sacrament the sick person receives the strength and the gift of uniting himself more closely to Christ's Passion: in a certain way he is consecrated to bear fruit by configuration to the Savior's redemptive Passion. Suffering, a consequence of original sin, acquires a new meaning; it becomes a participation in the saving work of Jesus.


Hope this helps!

Sacha
 
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Monica child of God 1

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Picking up on the conversation begun in TAW--

I think we would agree with the idea of our sufferings being joined with Christ's:

But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. --1 Peter 2:20-21

I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death[/b] and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. --Philippians 3:10

We are to take up our crosses and follow Christ. The part that I think we reject is our sufferings acting as payment to God for sin.

Blessings!
Monica (not an official spokesperson of the Orthodox Church)
 
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