Recipe for a strong and HAPPY marriage

[Braunwyn]

This thread is an off shoot from the "women's place" thread. According to some, obedience is a key ingredient to a lasting marriage though I'm not quite sure what is meant by obedience. That has yet to be clarified. Some also contend that belief and adherence to a deity is necessary. What do you think?

I've found a number of things on the net that point to sucessful and lost marriages. Here's one point among many.

"Premarital education could cut divorce rate, survey finds:

More couples are getting premarital education, perhaps thinking it may give their new marriages divorce protection. And new research suggests they may well be right.

Premarital education "is associated with higher levels of marital satisfaction, lower levels of destructive conflicts and higher levels of interpersonal commitment to spouses," says the study, published this spring in the Journal of Family Psychology. Based on a random phone survey of 3,344 adults in four states, it says couples who received premarital education had a 31% lower chance of divorce. The number of hours spent in premarital programs ranged from as little as a few hours to 20 hours. The median was eight hours."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-06-21-premarital-education_x.htm

Catholics have to attend premarital counseling and I believe Catholics have one of the lower divorce rates among Christians. So, that's interesting.

 

[Axioma]

What is premarital education?

 

[Braunwyn]

And then we have the stats. At one point I was thinking that atheists have lower divorce rates because they marry at lower rates over all. But looking at the numbers I notice their rates aren't a % of the population but a % of all athiests so that argument doesn't fly, fortunately.

"11% of all American adults are divorced
25% of all American adults have had at least one divorce
29% of Baptists have been divorced
27% of born-again Christians have had at least one divorce
24% of all non-born-again Christians have been divorced
21% of Catholics and Lutherans have been divorced
21% of atheists have been divorced"

Unless this is wrong, it's not 21% of the popullation but 21% OF atheists.

Now on to regions-

"27% of people in the South and Midwest have been divorced
26% of people in the West have been divorced
19% of people in the Northwest and Northeast have been divorced
The highest divorce rates are in the Bible Belt..."

What is it about the northern coasts?

The study was conducted by George Barna (from what I gather), a conservative evangelical Christian

"Born again adults who have been married are just as likely as non-born-again adults who have been married to eventually become divorced. Because the vast majority of born again marriages occurred after the partners had accepted Christ as their savior, it appears that their connection to Christ makes less difference in the durability of people’s marriages than many people might expect. Faith has had a limited affect on people’s behavior, whether related to moral convictions and practices, relational activities, lifestyle choices or economic practices."

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistfamiliesmarriage/a/AtheistsDivorce.htm

 

[Saint_Rita]

we took what was called "marriage prep" classes. (we were married in the Catholic church) Personally I liked them because it gave us talking points to discuss... It was like a retreat setting (over the course of a few afternoons OR you could take a weekend) There were talks on finances, children, sexual intimacy, communication, etc. It was really helpful to discuss these things before we were married instead of dealing with them after the fact. We thought we were fully prepared having dated for over 3 years before getting married, but even my DH says he is so glad we took them, although at the time they were slightly annoying.

 

[Braunwyn]

What is premarital education?

Check the link. It's different than premarital counseling because it's in a group setting. My husband and I didn't do the group thing but we did go to a therapist where we participated in productive communication exercises. I thought it was pretty cool.

 

[Braunwyn]

we took what was called "marriage prep" classes. (we were married in the Catholic church) Personally I liked them because it gave us talking points to discuss... It was like a retreat setting (over the course of a few afternoons OR you could take a weekend) There were talks on finances, children, sexual intimacy, communication, etc. It was really helpful to discuss these things before we were married instead of dealing with them after the fact. We thought we were fully prepared having dated for over 3 years before getting married, but even my DH says he is so glad we took them, although at the time they were slightly annoying.

We went for a couple of months. One of the things I remember was that the therapist had us make lists about eachother, like our favorite things about our partner or what aspects we respected most about the other. We also engaged in conversation where only one person would talk for 30 minutes without interruption about whatever we wanted and then we'd switch. It helped us to stop and really listen to the other. All in all it was great.

eta: I'll add this article so I don't clutter thread too much with my posts-

""Families with highly educated mothers and families with less educated
mothers are clearly moving in opposite directions," Dr. Martin wrote in a
paper that has not yet been published but has been presented and widely
discussed at scientific meetings.

As the overall divorce rates shot up from the early 1960's through the late
1970's, Dr. Martin found, the divorce rate for women with college degrees
and those without moved in lockstep, with graduates consistently having
about one-third to one-fourth the divorce rate of nongraduates."
http://www.divorcereform.org/nyt05.html

 

[Yusuf Evans]

I think it's a very good idea to do pre-marital counseling. I know that the military offers it, and makes it a requirement when you are getting married overseas.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

And then we have the stats. At one point I was thinking that atheists have lower divorce rates because they marry at lower rates over all. But looking at the numbers I notice their rates aren't a % of the population but a % of all athiests so that argument doesn't fly, fortunately.

"11% of all American adults are divorced
25% of all American adults have had at least one divorce
29% of Baptists have been divorced
27% of born-again Christians have had at least one divorce
24% of all non-born-again Christians have been divorced
21% of Catholics and Lutherans have been divorced
21% of atheists have been divorced"

Unless this is wrong, it's not 21% of the popullation but 21% OF atheists.

Now on to regions-

"27% of people in the South and Midwest have been divorced
26% of people in the West have been divorced
19% of people in the Northwest and Northeast have been divorced
The highest divorce rates are in the Bible Belt..."

What is it about the northern coasts?

If living together were factored into the figures, we would have a different view of "breakups."

The study was conducted by George Barna (from what I gather), a conservative evangelical Christian

AKA, an honest man.

"Born again adults who have been married are just as likely as non-born-again adults who have been married to eventually become divorced. Because the vast majority of born again marriages occurred after the partners had accepted Christ as their savior, it appears that their connection to Christ makes less difference in the durability of people’s marriages than many people might expect. Faith has had a limited affect on people’s behavior, whether related to moral convictions and practices, relational activities, lifestyle choices or economic practices."

It is a consistent theme in the Bible, that mixing with the culture will corrupt the people that follow God. How often can you set a Christian apart from a non and even an anti believer these days?

Seems like an old story, reported even before the Ten Commandments were given to Moses at Sinai.

 

[Braunwyn]

If living together were factored into the figures, we would have a different view of "breakups."

Perhaps, but we're discussing marriage not just relationships. The two aren't comparable. Speaking from experience, marriage is a greater commitment, a completely different ball game compared to just living with someone or being in a relationship. IMO. Although experience in pre-marital relationships may influence those involved before jumping into a marriage carelessly.

It is a consistent theme in the Bible, that mixing with the culture will corrupt the people that follow God. How often can you set a Christian apart from a non and even an anti believer these days?

I'm not sure what you mean here. Can you clarify?

 

[gwenmead]

Perhaps, but we're discussing marriage not just relationships. The two aren't comparable. Speaking from experience, marriage is a greater commitment, a completely different ball game compared to just living with someone or being in a relationship. IMO.

Hmm. Well... some thoughts.

I've been married, divorced, and married again. When I divorced, one of the things which struck me very hard was the difference between the marriage relationship vs. the marriage contract. One is a matter of day-to-day relating, living together, handling whatever comes up, loving, etc. - the relationship. The other is a legally binding contract outlining what kinds of obligations married partners have towards one another under the law.

It really struck me that the two actually have very little to do with each other. The state does not consider a couple married unless they have entered into a marriage contract with one another, but for the state, any relationship is irrelevant. A couple that marries might have a deeply committed, intimate relationship, but they might not. They might just take on the contract because they want inheritance issues, taxes, etc., to be figured out.

When my first marriage failed, it wasn't because something went wrong with the legal contract. It was because something went wrong with the relationship. The level of commitment that was missing wasn't in the contract, it was in the relationship. The contract said nothing about loving, cherishing, honoring, fidelity, any of that; it said nothing about the meat of how to maintain an emotional, sexual, or psychological connection. It just said that our finances were mingled and that we'd have to get a court order to unmingle them. More or less.

So when I married the second time, my focus was on making sure that the relationship was a strong one, before taking any step to get involved in another legally binding contract with my now spouse. Which is one of the things, I think, which helps make the current relationship so much stronger and happier than my first marriage was.

Incidentally, when I was married the first time, we were both Born-Again Christians. He eventually settled on a moderate belief, and we affiliated with a Presbyterian church during our marriage. Our marriage was a traditional one, based as much as possible on Christian values. We received plenty of pre-marriage counseling, support from our friends, our Christian church community, and a Christian marriage counselor, but for a number of deeply personal reasons our marriage still failed. Christianity, thus, is no guarantee that one's marriage will survive.

My ex is still a believer, and still attends the church we joined years ago. I do not know if he has remarried, but if he has, I hope it works better than our marriage did. I, on the other hand, well - you know about me. I deconverted eventually, was a pagan for awhile, and am now an atheist. I am married to a lapsed Wiccan, and we have a very egalitarian, nontraditional relationship. And I couldn't be happier, and neither could he.

So certainly theism is not a requirement for a happy, strong marriage, any more than wifely obedience is.

Dunno if there's any point to all this, just thought I'd ramble on a bit. Thanks for reading.

 

[Braunwyn]

Hi gwenmead. For whatever reason your post didn't come up on my subscribe list. I was going to bump the thread for CIC and I'm glad now because I would have missed your post.

Hmm. Well... some thoughts.

I've been married, divorced, and married again. When I divorced, one of the things which struck me very hard was the difference between the marriage relationship vs. the marriage contract. One is a matter of day-to-day relating, living together, handling whatever comes up, loving, etc. - the relationship. The other is a legally binding contract outlining what kinds of obligations married partners have towards one another under the law.

Excellent breakdown although I've found how I contend with the day-to-day to differ with marriage compared to non-marriage relationships. This is in part definately due to the contract under the law.

It really struck me that the two actually have very little to do with each other. The state does not consider a couple married unless they have entered into a marriage contract with one another, but for the state, any relationship is irrelevant. A couple that marries might have a deeply committed, intimate relationship, but they might not. They might just take on the contract because they want inheritance issues, taxes, etc., to be figured out.

When my first marriage failed, it wasn't because something went wrong with the legal contract. It was because something went wrong with the relationship. The level of commitment that was missing wasn't in the contract, it was in the relationship. The contract said nothing about loving, cherishing, honoring, fidelity, any of that; it said nothing about the meat of how to maintain an emotional, sexual, or psychological connection. It just said that our finances were mingled and that we'd have to get a court order to unmingle them. More or less.

So when I married the second time, my focus was on making sure that the relationship was a strong one, before taking any step to get involved in another legally binding contract with my now spouse. Which is one of the things, I think, which helps make the current relationship so much stronger and happier than my first marriage was.

Thanks for sharing. You make such a great point and I can relate, albeit not directly but via my parents. Both have been married a few times so when I decided to enter into a legal contract, that would essentially make me responsible for my partner as I am for myself, I was very careful to be sure that our relationship was something that could indeed last a life time.

Incidentally, when I was married the first time, we were both Born-Again Christians. He eventually settled on a moderate belief, and we affiliated with a Presbyterian church during our marriage. Our marriage was a traditional one, based as much as possible on Christian values. We received plenty of pre-marriage counseling, support from our friends, our Christian church community, and a Christian marriage counselor, but for a number of deeply personal reasons our marriage still failed. Christianity, thus, is no guarantee that one's marriage will survive.

Yea, that is what the stats show.

My ex is still a believer, and still attends the church we joined years ago. I do not know if he has remarried, but if he has, I hope it works better than our marriage did. I, on the other hand, well - you know about me. I deconverted eventually, was a pagan for awhile, and am now an atheist. I am married to a lapsed Wiccan, and we have a very egalitarian, nontraditional relationship. And I couldn't be happier, and neither could he.

So certainly theism is not a requirement for a happy, strong marriage, any more than wifely obedience is.

Dunno if there's any point to all this, just thought I'd ramble on a bit. Thanks for reading.

Again, thanks for sharing.

 

[gwenmead]

Hi gwenmead. For whatever reason your post didn't come up on my subscribe list. I was going to bump the thread for CIC and I'm glad now because I would have missed your post.

No worries. Glad you found it, glad you read it, glad you bumped it.

I've snipped my original post in my reply here, to save room.

Excellent breakdown although I've found how I contend with the day-to-day to differ with marriage compared to non-marriage relationships. This is in part definately due to the contract under the law.

This second time around I haven't found that much is different, as far as the day-to-day goes.

But then, I wonder if that doesn't have to do with premarital living arrangements and the way they worked out for each marriage. First time I was married, I didn't live with my partner long-term beforehand; we got our apartment together and I lived there for a few weeks setting it up, then he moved in the last month before our wedding. So there was a lot of that day-to-day that we hadn't figured out at all, really.

This time around, we lived together for 2 years before I agreed to marry him, and another 6 or 8 months until we actually wed. We had a lot of time to work out the mundane workings of daily living together, and a lot of time to figure out finances, budgets, chores, etc. etc. etc. The marriage license was almost a formality by then.

Oddly enough, though, I was with each partner for many years before marrying. I'd known my first spouse since high school and we were engaged for about 2 years. I didn't know my current spouse at all until we started dating, but we were also together for 2 years before marrying. I don't know if that makes much difference in the failure or success of each relationship, but I'd think - sheesh, you'd think I would've known each partner well enough by the time we married that I could've figured out whether or not the relationship would work.

But then, maybe living apart did make a difference: I knew my first spouse was introverted, but maybe introversion translates as "reserved" when you only see it every so often, and doesn't translate into "ignores his wife completely" until you see it every day. :/

Maybe there's a lot that just doesn't come up if you don't live with someone, even if you know them.

Anyway though. Rambling again...

Thanks for sharing. You make such a great point and I can relate, albeit not directly but via my parents. Both have been married a few times so when I decided to enter into a legal contract, that would essentially make me responsible for my partner as I am for myself, I was very careful to be sure that our relationship was something that could indeed last a life time.

Yeah. The legal ramifications were something nobody ever really told me about before I got married the first time, even though we went through plenty of pre-marriage counseling and that. It wasn't until I actually went through a divorce myself that I felt like I fully understood what's involved in a marriage contract. And of course, I didn't want to make the same mistakes I did the second time around.

It seems ironic for a divorced woman to say that she takes and took marriage seriously, but I did and do. Learning from one's mistakes and all that...

Yea, that is what the stats show.

Yeah. Although I'm sure some would say the real reason my marriage failed is because I'm an angry, bitter, abrasive, rebellious ungodly woman who didn't want to live under the godly authority of a good Christian man. Oh yeah, and did you know that I'm singlehandedly responsible for the deaths of 60 million children? And I've caused the economy to tank. Oh yes, and the obesity epidemic? That's mine too...

Really, I'm so busy causing the downfall of Western civilization as we know it that I don't even have time for a manicure and a permanent wave!

Again, thanks for sharing.

Hey, thanks for reading! I appreciate it.

 

[Braunwyn]

Maybe there's a lot that just doesn't come up if you don't live with someone, even if you know them.

I lived with my husband five years before we married. Due to my parents I had a rule of a 5 year engagement. I was older, more mature and focussed when we married. Young kids getting married without really knowing eachother is risky.

Yeah. Although I'm sure some would say the real reason my marriage failed is because I'm an angry, bitter, abrasive, rebellious ungodly woman who didn't want to live under the godly authority of a good Christian man. Oh yeah, and did you know that I'm singlehandedly responsible for the deaths of 60 million children? And I've caused the economy to tank. Oh yes, and the obesity epidemic? That's mine too...

Really, I'm so busy causing the downfall of Western civilization as we know it that I don't even have time for a manicure and a permanent wave!

Excellent post lol. You made me laugh out loud

 

[stan1980]

Young kids getting married without really knowing eachother is risky.

Indeed, also when you're young you don't even know yourself that well (I didn't anyway in hindsight). I thank my lucky stars I didn't get married when I was younger, as my love tends to fade over time, something the young Stan wouldn't have known about himself. Now I just need to find someone who can put up with my slightly neurotic side