Receiving Messages....

cvanwey · Jan 26, 2019

disciple Clint said:
they were all things that were personal to me or my family nothing about others or world events or any of those things.

Then isn't it quite possible that you are accepting the hits, and ignoring the misses? If not, please explain why?

bèlla · Jan 26, 2019

Tinker Grey said:
[aside]Like your avatar[/aside]

So how'd you think this would go?

Thank you for the compliment.

I don't want to debate.

bèlla · Jan 26, 2019

cvanwey said:
I know your answers you are genuine. I do not doubt that much. Furthermore, in regards to your answer, it would not matter if I believed in the tooth fairy, sasquatch, nothing, or other...

It is a very difficult subject. One I've only spoken of on this site. I misunderstood your intention.

However, I find it very curious that if you were legitimately haunted by demons, or what-have-you, for roughly twelve full months to boot, why would you not seek help and also get it repeatedly documented from unbiased locations? Seems like the logical next step. The fact that you are not addressing as much makes the entire mentioning of such claims less than impactful or meaningful, to say the very least.

That is because you're addressing this from reason. If a person is held captive for a lengthy period what is the one thing they say? I want to go home. Rest and recovery are your goals. Not science.

Psychological torment is draining.

I hear anecdotal claims all the time, of the 'beyond.' And yet, any time I press for evidence, it conveniently falls by the wayside

I don't believe all the things that people report. And I wouldn't encourage anyone to do the same.

I considered therapy. But I didn't think I could handle the probing. Most of all, I felt a lot of sorrow. I didn't blame God for what happened. He delivered me from it. But something within me ached because He allowed it. And that took a long time to heal.

I asked Him why and He sent me to Job. I am responsible for the doors I opened which provided the right of entry. I own that completely. It's one of the reasons I comment on threads which introduce practices that involve more than the practitioner realizes.

I also share a lot of feedback on spiritual warfare. That was something I gained from my experience and immense faith. But the wound will always be there. It doesn't bleed but it remains.

I don't think supernatural topics are the ideal way to figure things out. Your logic is good. But you're applying it to a subject where reason must be suspended. And short of something manifesting before your face. Which I wouldn't wish on you or another living soul. You can't know.

Have you read the accounts of demonologists within Catholicism?

cvanwey · Jan 26, 2019

“Paisios” said:
I fully admit that is a real possibility. I don’t think I can provide any proof that would satisfy you. I am taking it on faith because of the reasons I mentioned above, especially that these events were so overwhelming and life changing and unlike anything before or since. But yeah, it could all just be in my head, in which case I’m glad my brain decided to choose the light rather than the dark.

(That it would come from repetitive readings of the Bible is unlikely though, in the first case, as the church I grew up in didn’t do much Bible reading, and I never really started reading the Bible until long after the first experience.)

I truly appreciate your honesty! Would you mind exploring a bit further?

1. What is (your) definition of 'faith'? You do understand faith can 'work' or be used for any belief or trust mechanism right? I could 'take it on faith' that I know my house is haunted, right? But without proper investigation and evidence, is such 'faith' truly justified?

2. What's more likely, that God somehow chooses to remain mostly hidden, for many to doubt or deny His existence, to instead allow millions of debates for thousands of years; and He is only contacting specific and single individuals, at random points in time, and giving them information that is less than convincing to others whom question? (OR), people are instead manifesting their own thoughts as 'messages from the beyond'???? Seems odd that after thousands of years, and after millions of debates, we still have not at least established whether or not that not only does God truly exist, but which god? Wouldn't you agree?

3. Okay, so you did not read the Bible, but you were definitely indoctrinated early, like me Meaning, you were brought up in it, like me. Isn't it quite possible you are hyper vigilant, predetermined, or predisposed to the a priori of your indoctrinated beliefs being true?

cvanwey · Jan 26, 2019

LaBèlla said:
That is because you're addressing this from reason. If a person is held captive for a lengthy period what is the one thing they say? I want to go home. Rest and recovery are your goals. Not science.
Psychological torment is draining.

What I'm effectively saying, is that I find it curious that you truly feel you were tormented from beyond, for an entire year, and did not make it a priority, at some point in this time, to get it on record as evidence or proof. To at least get it on record, establish the conclusion, at least, that demons are real. But then to instead share your story only after it is over here.?.? Seems suspicious, if I'm being perfectly honest :/ Not suspicious in the sense that I think you are lying. But in the sense that maybe you truly had subconscious doubt that what you are stating could instead very well not have been substantiated as real, (from external sources). Maybe you were instead afraid to know the truth, that your internal battle was quite possibly not from 'demons'. Maybe it was instead comforting to conclude or think that such communication was validating your presuppositional beliefs you hold. People have a tendency or predisposition to jump to premature conclusions all the time. I bet we are all guilty of such.

Thoughts?

LaBèlla said:
I don't believe all the things that people report. And I wouldn't encourage anyone to do the same.

Then please tell me why (your) anecdotal claim is any more or less worthy of mentioning than the person whom earnestly informed me of their near death out-of-body experience last week?

LaBèlla said:
Have you read the accounts of demonologists within Catholicism?

I've even seen the Exorcist. They were Catholic Biased reporting is usually not very credible or substantiated.

bèlla · Jan 26, 2019

cvanwey said:
I truly appreciate your honesty! Would you mind exploring a bit further?

I will share on one condition. I'm not asking you to suspend your doubt or skepticism. Nor will I engage in arm twisting either. I was once agnostic and nearly atheist. I am very sensitive to religion when addressing people with different beliefs or none. And I've studied and practiced my share.

1. What is (your) definition of 'faith'? You do understand faith can 'work' or be used for any belief or trust mechanism right? I could 'take it on faith' that I know my house is haunted, right? But without proper investigation and evidence, is such 'faith' truly justified?

Yes. I've mentioned this on the site recently. Once a path is chosen people are reluctant to turn back. Even when they discover they're wrong. They'll contort themselves to maintain that position.

I haven't revealed how it started. But I'll touch on it for this discussion. Oftentimes in situations like mine the problem is there long before you're aware of it. By the time you know something's wrong the situation has worsened.

It began with a blow to the chest. I was on the phone talking to a friend when something hit me in the chest very hard. I nearly collapsed and screamed aloud. I was home alone. It wasn't a heart attack or a stroke. I'm in good health.

I knew it was supernatural. Remember, I've walked many paths. Strange things started happening afterward. One evening while talking with a friend the lights came on. My daughter was out of town at a conference. I was the only one there. I went to turn them off and went back to my bedroom. Then it happened again. I turned them off again. Then it happened once more and the bread fell from the top of the refrigerator.

I grabbed my laptop, cell phone, purse and left. Don't believe what you see in movies. I was terrified. I phoned a friend and shared what happened. She believed me and knew I was too upset to be kidding. We spoke for an hour and I settled my mind and returned home.

I opened the door and stated aloud, "This is my house. You have to go." I didn't know how to fight it but I knew I couldn't allow things to worsen. I was certain it would if I didn't stand up. And it would have. The longer it remains the stronger it gets.

2. What's more likely, that God somehow chooses to remain mostly hidden, for many to doubt or deny His existence, to instead allow millions of debates for thousands of years; and He is only contacting specific and single individuals, at random points in time, and giving them information that is less than convincing to others whom question? (OR), people are instead manifesting their own thoughts as 'messages from the beyond'???? Seems odd that after thousands of years, and after millions of debates, we still have not at least established whether or not that not only does God truly exist, but which god? Wouldn't you agree?

God's visit would have been far nicer. Trust me! ;-)

I think it's a bit of both in all honesty. But in my case things became progressively worse. I would walk in the evening to clear my head. I was very fatigued and my friends were helping. But our efforts were fruitless. We didn't realize it then.

Something started talking to me. Because of my previous experiences with other religions I assumed it was good. But I was mistaken and that came out eventually. I would walk in the evenings to clear my head. And I started seeing animals everywhere. Not the sort you'd find downtown in a city.

I applied the meanings I knew to their appearance. I kept seeing rabbits and I've lived in this neighborhood for over 20 years. They are a rarity but I saw them every night. They represent fear in some traditions. But the raccoon was the turning point. I saw him one evening and leapt into the street. He scampered up the tree and poked his head around and I jumped back. My daughter saw one at school the same week. I understood I was being deceived. That's the traditional meaning given to them.

3. Okay, so you did not read the Bible, but you were definitely indoctrinated early, like me Meaning, you were brought up in it, like me. Isn't it quite possible you are hyper vigilant, predetermined, or predisposed to the a priori of your indoctrinated beliefs being true?

I went for an afternoon walk and listened to an audiobook. It was The Battlefield of the Mind by Joyce Meyers. I don't know what it was about the book the escalated the situation. Rather, I didn't know at the time but I do now.

When I came home and started turning her words over in my head I understood what I was dealing with. Then the ranting began. Hours of belligerance with no end in sight. It was nighttime when it started and when I opened my eyes the sun was coming up.

I stood up and went to my bookshelf. I pulled out a copy of When the Enemy Strikes by Charles Stanley. I knew the prayer I was looking for and prayed it aloud. And I heard these words:

"How dare you pick up the sword."

That's when the battle began. The supernatural activity increased a lot after that. You mentioned the mind and that's something many never address aloud. It's the main source of the harassment. There may be physical activity too. I had both. And you must take care with your thoughts because oftentimes they hail from the source or their influence. I saw horrid things. Images I couldn't fathom. Deeply satanic and utterly sick. I thought I'd crack up later. Seriously.

You mentioned documentation. But that's the problem. Living it once was enough. Reliving it to appease doctors would have driven me over the edge. It took years before I'd talk about this. I can laugh with my aunt because she knows most of it. My daughter calls it the uninvited guest. But when I'm writing it out I feel differently. I see the trauma and it hurts.

I think my mind has repressed some things. Or put them in a place where they don't come up unexpectedly. That's probably for the best. I don't fear evil. I will fight to the death if I must. But I paid a heavy price to reach that point.

I'd read the bible. I was a very devout child. That's part of the pain I felt. I loved God so much. I looked for Him in every religion I practiced. I just wanted to find my way back to Him.

There are things I haven't shared. Some of it is too intimate and others too traumatizing to write. I was demonically oppressed. It didn't possess me but that was its intention. He said it. But not in those words. He used another description that my friend understood. They became more adamant about my need to fight and get rid of it.

My friends were attacked too. We were all worn out. Everyone who helped me experienced a backlash of some sorts. This is too sick to be theater.

cvanwey · Jan 26, 2019

zephcom said:
I suppose there could be a C) option as well. That option would be that access to God is possible regardless of one's religion of lack of religion. IOW, God doesn't have a favored religion or any religion at all. In that case, anyone or everyone could be hearing directly from God.

This is what I mentioned in the second part of option B)

zephcom said:
I really don't think that there exists a way to conclusively identify messages from God as opposed to all the other ways people hear things in their mind. We simply don't have the proper tools to accomplish that task.

Then all one can do is play the odds.... Is it more likely all your thoughts are internal, and you are simply 'interpreting' some of them as 'from God'? Or, are you actually receiving messages? Because remember, I have spoken to many believers of alternative faiths, whom also earnestly claim the very same contact.

And you are correct in some respect.... Whom could ever really prove as such...? But in the case for the Bible for instance, or any other spiritual claimed text, there does not even appear one piece of 'prophecy' within, which could not have been written by mere humans at the time it was written. If there instead existed details, denoting futuristic specific claims, which could not be widely translated to fit, due to their vagueness, then one could AT LEAST argue, that such messages AT LEAST came from beyond. Not necessarily from Yahweh, but at least from some external source

So for such claimed external contact to be meaningful, it might possess very specific and very detailed parameters, which could not instead be interpreted in a multitude of ways, based upon how the reader wishes to spin it as such.... This would at least set the precedence of non-human contact...

bèlla · Jan 26, 2019

cvanwey said:
What I'm effectively saying, is that I find it curious that you truly feel you were tormented from beyond, for an entire year, and did not make it a priority, at some point in this time, to get it on record as evidence or proof.

It was never a priority and still isn't. How would I benefit by doing so? And what price will I pay?

To at least get it on record, establish the conclusion, at least, that demons are real. But then to instead share your story only after it is over here.?.? Seems suspicious, if I'm being perfectly honest :/ Not suspicious in the sense that I think you are lying. But in the sense that maybe you truly had subconscious doubt that what you are stating could instead very well not have been substantiated as real, (from external sources). Maybe you were instead afraid to know the truth, that your internal battle was quite possibly not from 'demons'. Maybe it was instead comforting to conclude or think that such communication was validating your presuppositional beliefs you hold. People have a tendency or predisposition to jump to premature conclusions all the time. I bet we are all guilty of such.

That requires a kind of altruism I don't possess. If it came down to my self-preservation and my daughter's we'd win every time. I won't take a hit for you or anyone else. I'm not wired like that. I'm not a social justice warrior either.

There's no upside to the price I'd pay to do what you're suggesting. And counting the cost is a must. Some people want attention. I don't need to exploit myself for gain and I have no interest in educating people at my expense.

Then please tell me why (your) anecdotal claim is any more or less worthy of mentioning than the person whom earnestly informed me of their near death out-of-body experience last week?

It isn't. I'm not trying to convince you. Nor am I bothered if you don't believe me. I have no stake in it either way. That's the difference.

JCFantasy23 · Jan 26, 2019

cvanwey said:
How can one distinguish a message from God, verses from Satan, verses from another opposing God, verses from your own self, verses another source?

It's hard to describe. That's not a great answer, but I don't know how else to answer. I'm not one of those Christians who believes that Satan can get into the prayer a believer is having with God in the first place, I see it as protected and sacred. The key is knowing when its your mind versus actually God. Sometimes that can be confusing and it should always be questioned and weighed against scripture.

zephcom · Jan 26, 2019

cvanwey said:
This is what I mentioned in the second part of option B)

Then all one can do is play the odds.... Is it more likely all your thoughts are internal, and you are simply 'interpreting' some of them as 'from God'? Or, are you actually receiving messages? Because remember, I have spoken to many believers of alternative faiths, whom also earnestly claim the very same contact.

And you are correct in some respect.... Whom could ever really prove as such...? But in the case for the Bible for instance, or any other spiritual claimed text, there does not even appear one piece of 'prophecy' within, which could not have been written by mere humans at the time it was written. If there instead existed details, denoting futuristic specific claims, which could not be widely translated to fit, due to their vagueness, then one could AT LEAST argue, that such messages AT LEAST came from beyond. Not necessarily from Yahweh, but at least from some external source

So for such claimed external contact to be meaningful, it might possess very specific and very detailed parameters, which could not instead be interpreted in a multitude of ways, based upon how the reader wishes to spin it as such.... This would at least set the precedence of non-human contact...

So spiritualism then? There is long tradition within humanity of friends and relatives 'appearing' in a wide variety of ways after their deaths.

My own Grandmother told me about an experience she once had.

After my grandfather died she spent months grieving and calling out to him. Finally one night she woke up and saw him standing that the foot of the bed. He told her he was just fine and that she needed to stop calling out for him.

He said that if she really needed help with something he would be there for her. But her constantly calling for him was keeping him from do the things he needed to do.

She and I both 'knew' that was exactly the way my grandfather would have handled the situation. Did that actually happen or did she dream it?? I don't know and neither did she. But it -was- sufficient for her to move on.

I think everyone here could tell a similar story regarding people who have crossed over. But those stories are clearly different from 'God' appearing to an individual and telling them stuff.

After all, 'God' represents absolute authority. Much evil has been done because people believed 'God' instructed it to be done.

When a relative or friend who is dead makes an appearance with advice we don't give it any more credibility than we would have if they had said it before they died.

The real danger is when people believe GOD is talking to them and they have no method to verify their messages actually are from God.

I've always said that if God really wanted to talk to us there are ways in which he could verify that the message actually came from Him. The one I suggest is that if every diamond dug from the ground had a message written inside which was instantly readable in everyone's native language, it would be impossible to deny Divine authorship.

My standard so far is to accept that people honestly BELIEVE God is talking to them. But I go with the odds and think they are being deceived either by their own mind by some other mechanism.

cvanwey · Jan 26, 2019

LaBèlla said:
I will share on one condition. I'm not asking you to suspend your doubt or skepticism. Nor will I engage in arm twisting either. I was once agnostic and nearly atheist. I am very sensitive to religion when addressing people with different beliefs or none. And I've studied and practiced my share.

Noted

LaBèlla said:
Yes. I've mentioned this on the site recently. Once a path is chosen people are reluctant to turn back. Even when they discover they're wrong. They'll contort themselves to maintain that position.

Is it possible you are speaking about yourself in such a case?

LaBèlla said:
I was home alone.

Seems odd that such reports usually come with this detail ** alone **

LaBèlla said:
My daughter was out of town at a conference. I was the only one there.

Seems odd that such reports usually come with this detail ** alone **

LaBèlla said:
I opened the door and stated aloud, "This is my house. You have to go." I didn't know how to fight it but I knew I couldn't allow things to worsen.

You went back to the house alone? Did you at least attempt to video with your phone? Or have a friend or family member do as such?

LaBèlla said:
I would walk in the evenings to clear my head. And I started seeing animals everywhere. Not the sort you'd find downtown in a city.

Alone? Was it reported on the evening news of such mysterious animals in the city?

LaBèlla said:
I went for an afternoon walk and listened to an audiobook. It was The Battlefield of the Mind by Joyce Meyers. I don't know what it was about the book the escalated the situation. Rather, I didn't know at the time but I do now.

Whether you are a believer in Christ or not, I doubt such a speaker is going to give 'sound' advise regardless.

LaBèlla said:
I stood up and went to my bookshelf. I pulled out a copy of When the Enemy Strikes by Charles Stanley. I knew the prayer I was looking for and prayed it aloud. And I heard these words:

"How dare you pick up the sword."

All this happened alone?

LaBèlla said:
You mentioned documentation. But that's the problem. Living it once was enough.

My point is if this was going on for a full year, there must be credible documentation from unbiased observers recorded, right?

LaBèlla said:
I'd read the bible. I was a very devout child. That's part of the pain I felt. I loved God so much. I looked for Him in every religion I practiced. I just wanted to find my way back to Him.

This speaks volumes. Your passion and yearning for contact may be part of, or the complete catalyst, to what you have/had experienced.

LaBèlla said:
There are things I haven't shared. Some of it is too intimate and others too traumatizing to write. I was demonically oppressed. It didn't possess me but that was its intention. He said it. But not in those words. He used another description that my friend understood. They became more adamant about my need to fight and get rid of it.

My friends were attacked too. We were all worn out. Everyone who helped me experienced a backlash of some sorts. This is too sick to be theater.

Were you, and your friends, able to corroborate your stories? Meaning, were your friends with you when this long string of events would happen? If so, did any of you think to get any of it on record? Not so-much-so for therapy sake, but to at least prove to the rest of the world, that demons are real?

Me personally, I would like nothing more than to provide 'truth' to the rest of the civilized world; by providing my small gift of demonstrating substantial evidence. I would find it very altruistic to give back to my loved ones and society, by providing credible testimony. And ending, once and for all, the many many many wars, which are perpetuated, in the honor of their now proven false gods, which has plagued this planet for millenniums.

cvanwey · Jan 26, 2019

zephcom said:
Did that actually happen or did she dream it?? I don't know and neither did she. But it -was- sufficient for her to move on.

Was it more like coping mechanisms and applying intentional agency, or, was it an actual occurrence from beyond? If one is to be intellectually honest, and again using Occam's razor, it is much more highly likely the former.

zephcom said:
After all, 'God' represents absolute authority. Much evil has been done because people believed 'God' instructed it to be done.

If this was the case, then why are humans still questioning the mere existence of God? If 'absolute authority' was truly provided, you might think we would at least have this fundamental question laid to rest by now, wouldn't you? That Yahweh DOES actually exist...?

bèlla · Jan 26, 2019

cvanwey said:
Is it possible you are speaking about yourself in such a case?

We're all guilty of this. Being wrong isn't something I hear in Christian circles. It's always concerned me. Mistakes happen. Not knowing is the other thing. I don't usually hear "I don't know." That bothers me too.

Seems odd that such reports usually come with this detail ** alone **

When two people reside in a house you'll have a lot of alone time when the other one is gone. ;-)

You went back to the house alone? Did you at least attempt to video with your phone? Or have a friend or family member do as such?

Neither came to mind. It was nearly midnight and I needed to go home or get a room at a hotel. Those were my options. You're focused on documentation and I'm saying "what the hell" in my head. Very different priorities.

All this happened alone?

No, my daughter was home for quite a bit of it.

My point is if this was going on for a full year, there must be credible documentation from unbiased observers recorded, right?

You are a skeptic. That impacts your thoughts and behavior. You need proof. You want to show it to others. I was trying to survive and wanting my peace of mind most of all. My friends believed and supported me. That was enough. My mother was aware as well.

This speaks volumes. Your passion and yearning for contact may be part of, or the complete catalyst, to what you have/had experienced.

If you believe that's the case that's quite alright. I have no buy-in either way.

Were you, and your friends, able to corroborate your stories? Meaning, were your friends with you when this long string of events would happen? If so, did any of you think to get any of it on record? Not so-much-so for therapy sake, but to at least prove to the rest of the world, that demons are real?

We were scattered throughout the U.S. and didn't think of recording anything. Two of my friends had the least issues. They were primarily there for moral support and to remind me of their love. They were pouring in goodness. The other three were getting their butts kicked with me. They'd studied and practiced many religions and were more conversant in what I was experiencing. I told them the bad stuff. They would help me interpret some of it.

We never thought of doing what you said because we weren't thinking of the world or others. I was their concern. And these were long friendships. They knew my character. I told someone about this last year. We weren't talking when it happened but I've known her for over 16 years. She said she already knew what I was going to say before I said it. She couldn't explain the knowing. Not verbatim. But the sense that it was really bad and I wasn't lying. Outside of the group and my aunt and daughter she's the lone person I've told everything too.

Me personally, I would like nothing more than to provide 'truth' to the rest of the civilized world; by providing my small gift of demonstrating substantial evidence. I would find it very altruistic to give back to my loved ones and society, by providing credible testimony. And ending, once and for all, the many many many wars, which are perpetuated, in the honor of their now proven false gods, which has plagued this planet for millenniums.

I don't believe burdens can be assumed. It's something innate. An issue that burns within that you feel deeply committed to. I don't feel that about this. I never have. It's a horrid thing and I wish it had never happened.

Secrecy is Satan's biggest weapon. Your pursuit of this is akin to waging war in their eyes. You'd have a lot of warfare. I'd make certain I had a strong team in place before undertaking it. If that's your intention. Good luck.

cvanwey · Jan 26, 2019

LaBèlla said:
We're all guilty of this. Being wrong isn't something I hear in Christian circles. It's always concerned me. Mistakes happen. Not knowing is the other thing. I don't usually hear "I don't know." That bothers me too.

I would agree. For a shinning example, I doubt a Christian will call 'nonsense' on your story in this thread. Only scoffers, doubters, and nonbelievers may apply; unless someone may now do it for spite to 'prove me wrong'. Christians appear to be given carte blanche to say practically anything they wish, as long as it falls under the confines of the 'Jesus umbrella'. (i.e.) 'Thank you Jesus' mentioned in public at will.

But I do not doubt your sincerity or honesty, just so you know.

But DO pardon me for probing, as you are making some RATHER BOLD CLAIMS

LaBèlla said:
When two people reside in a house you'll have a lot of alone time when the other one is gone. ;-)

With all due respect, after a year of torment, it never once occurred to you to try and get validation from many others?

LaBèlla said:
Neither came to mind. It was nearly midnight and I needed to go home or get a room at a hotel. Those were my options. You're focused on documentation and I'm saying "what the hell" in my head. Very different priorities.

Even the cops call for backup, (as they have weapons), in any and every slightest bit of danger. If you were truly frightened, why would your instincts not tell you to at least protect yourself???? If things were flying, it might be good to seek protection. This would appear innate.

LaBèlla said:
No, my daughter was home for quite a bit of it.

The times where items were moving on their own? If so, did SHE report it to anyone, or get it documented?

LaBèlla said:
You are a skeptic. That impacts your thoughts and behavior. You need proof. You want to show it to others. I was trying to survive and wanting my peace of mind most of all. My friends believed and supported me. That was enough. My mother was aware as well.

I'm sorry, but I have to ask. Are you pranking me? I doubt you are, but I do not wish to invest more time if you are, so I must ask...

If not, did any of them come over to clarify some of these physical claims, i.e. flying objects, etc...

LaBèlla said:
Secrecy is Satan's biggest weapon.

You know this because...?

cvanwey · Jan 26, 2019

John 1720 said:
Dear Sir,
That is a very good and a most excellent question. I'll preface it by stating that Christians can also be deceived, just as the rest of the world can by evil. This is true, although God has provided us with both adequate discernment and teaching for all those who trusting in His Son, the Christ. There are empirical evidences of God's people being deceived as well. They are not only in the Bible but in acts seen all the way up through our day as well. That said, there is also plenty of empirical evidences that Christ's disciples were led by the 'voice of God' or the 'prompting of the Holy Spirit'. So, I think it is important to understand how we can both have victory in following the Spirit's lead, as well as explore why we sometimes fail to discern correctly the leading of God and run amuck.

Firstly, it is a core article of faith that, as Christians, we are given the ability to discern the promptings of God. When we are 'hearing' from God's own heart, (1) or others claiming prophetic utterance, we are taught to test the spirit as to whether the source is from above or below. I would add that God does this for the unregenerate as well; otherwise no one would ever come to faith upon hearing the Gospel. However, for the sake of brevity, I will only cover the case for Christians, who are being directed to follow the Will of God.

Secondly, the gift of discernment is a bonafide disbursement of the Holy Spirit. It is given in some measure to everyone who experiences a spiritual rebirth in Christ. Our postulate is then backed up in the exegesis that Jesus taught us that in our spiritual rebirth the the abiding Spirit of God is available to all who ask.

Luke 11:13 “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

Our regenerate spiritual nature is then changed from following after the selfish desires and lusts of the flesh by the conception, or rebirth, of God's Spirit within us (this is where we get the phrase 'born again'). We are no longer conformed to the pattern of this world but renewed in our hearts and minds to be a journey that conforms to following the Will of God. That Will of God is manifestly His expression of love for all Creation and is centered in the Gospel. Submitting ourselves to the Spirit is never a passive act and it has carried many of us into working among the most despised and despondent among us, as well as sending us to every corner of the glove, so that every ethnicity may hear the Good New of Jesus Christ and experience His Salvation - to the ends of the earth!

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

1Corinthians 12:4,7-11 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. … But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

So, God's purpose and love for humanity is clear. This is how Jesus, Himself, tested spiritual truth and falsehood and exposed Satan's self serving designs when locked in spiritual warfare. Spiritual attacks can come externally or from within us; for anything that manifests thought can be either from above or below - that is simply the nature of the tree of the knoledge of good and evil.

Luke 4:1-14

Matthew 22:18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, “Why do you test Me, you hypocrites?

Mark 12:15 “Shall we pay, or shall we not pay?” But He, knowing their hypocrisy, said to them, “Why do you test Me? Bring Me a denarius that I may see it.”

Luke 20:23 But He perceived their craftiness, and said to them, “Why do you test Me?

Mark 8:31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. He spoke this word openly. Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, "Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."

So, it is clear we are also taught not to believe every spirit but test whether it be of God. Even those desiring to follow the Lord, as I have stated, can be fooled. The apostles John and James were, even after obeying Christ's initial instructions, after they returned from a Samaritan village that they had cast them out after bringing them the Gospel. They then asked Jesus:

"Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?"

Luke 9:55 But He (Jesus) turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them." [And they went to another village.

So we are taught to test all things, whether we are truly operating in the Spirit or hearing from God.

2Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.

1Thesslonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

1John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Basically then, if what we are hearing or perceiving something that may truly be from God, it will not contradict God's Will, nor His Gospel. It will not contradict Christ's teachings but be germane to His love for lost humanity and for the edification of His Church. Examples:

So, if I feel led to perform an act of kindness to those opposed to Christ, I already know that Christ did the same, both healing and preaching the Good News to even those that desired to kill Him. That ascertained, I simply pray for confirmation and direction on how to proceed.

If His love propels me to go overseas and share the Gospel with those who have never heard it then I know He will also prepare me to obey His Great Commission and enable me to do it.

If I have any thoughts that run contrary to His Word or His love, or are based in selfish motives, I know it is not from Him but from below.

If I hear someone profess that God desires this or that, even if a trustworthy person, I do this:

Matthew 7:15-21 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

That's a basic brief on discerning the voice of God.
footnote
[1] When I say hear the voice of God I mean in all aspects of the sense of perceiving Him. It could be a simple though, such as go visit so and so in the hospital, go bring food to that feeding ministry, go to the prison this weekend and give those guys My hope with the Gospel. While some have heard the audible voice of God on occasion I have not, but I have indeed been spoken to by God in many various ways and have been able to sense His communication in prayer, in dreams and thoughts seeeming out of the blue. I am always blessed to follow the Lord and see His hand working, amazingly even in me.

In Christ, John 17:20

I do thank you for responding. However, I unfortunately received nothing pertaining to HOW one distinguishes messages from God, verse, from anywhere else?

'Discernment', for all intents and purposes, simply means the ability to judge. Your response no further demonstrates the actual mechanism used to differentiate messages from a deity, verses internal brain thoughts. To use the word 'discernment', is merely re-branding, or re-labeling the same question; which does not elude to an actual answer.

Remember, the OP asks how we can 'discern' the difference between a message from an external force, vs from our own brain? You see how I even used your word descriptor to paraphrase the very same question in the OP?

zephcom · Jan 26, 2019

cvanwey said:
Was it more like coping mechanisms and applying intentional agency, or, was it an actual occurrence from beyond? If one is to be intellectually honest, and again using Occam's razor, it is much more highly likely the former.

If this was the case, then why are humans still questioning the mere existence of God? If 'absolute authority' was truly provided, you might think we would at least have this fundamental question laid to rest by now, wouldn't you? That Yahweh DOES actually exist...?

Of course it is more likely to be the former. I wasn't there so I have no way to judge. She was and was convinced of it being real and she was a normally reasonable and rational person.

Of course it would be laid to rest by now -if- it could be confirmed that God is talking to people. By definition of God we afford God absolute authority.

That is why it is so important be able to verify when it -is- God and not just a malfunction of the brain or someone who just died and found a way to access brains.

If we just give people a free pass when they say "God TOLD me to do 'whatever' everyone would be using God for an excuse. As it is, people are running around claiming God 'hates' this or that without any evidence whatsoever of any involvement of God.

Popes have ordered wars because 'God' said to. People have been burned alive because someone said that was what God wants.

And religious leaders continue to encourage people to 'listen for God' in their minds. It is used as a proof of their 'relationship' with God.

And clearly, no one is able to define how they know they hearing God and not something else.

Like I said, I let them BELIEVE they hear God but assume they are being deceived.

bèlla · Jan 26, 2019

cvanwey said:
I would agree. For a shinning example, I doubt a Christian will call 'nonsense' on your story in this thread. Only scoffers, doubters, and nonbelievers may apply; unless someone may now do it for spite to 'prove me wrong'. Christians appear to be given carte blanche to say practically anything they wish, as long as it falls under the confines of the 'Jesus umbrella'. (i.e.) 'Thank you Jesus' mentioned in public at will.

I think it's dangerous in all truth. If we don't know something it's perfectly fine to say so. Perhaps we can discover the answers together. And I don't believe everything I hear.

I recall a comment made about a Christian pastor. The remark was, "He's a fine man." I asked her how she knew it? She didn't know him personally. She wasn't a member of his church. Her only engagement was through his books and radio ministry. Bill Cosby was a fine man until we discovered otherwise.

But I do not doubt your sincerity or honesty, just so you know. But DO pardon me for probing, as you are making some RATHER BOLD CLAIMS

I understand it more than I say. I used to talk to someone with a similar mindset. His need for proof applied to every area in his life. Well beyond faith. He once questioned my love for him. And asked how I knew.

With all due respect, after a year of torment, it never once occurred to you to try and get validation from many others?

Validation is only important when you have something to prove or a need to prove yourself. I care what "some people think" but not the whole. That's out of my control. Pursuing the methods you mention would only matter if the need existed (it doesn't) or if I planned to publicize my experience and wanted to add to my credibility (I'm not).

You're attributing that to the event when it's really personality at work. I'm a Myers Briggs ENTJ-A and an Enneagram 3. What you're suggesting is outwardly driven to a degree that's incompatible with my person. I don't look to others for acceptance or approval. That's why validation is unimaginable. I experience the reverse when I speak. Why I would do something that's rarely needed?

I shared those links to help you understand who you're conversing with. I lead. I'm accustomed to being out in front. I'm not a follower or permission seeker. And I'm not a people pleaser either. Why would I look for outside opinion for a project I'm not invested in? That makes no sense.

Even the cops call for backup, in any and every slightest bit of danger. If you were truly frightened, why would your instincts not tell you to at least protect yourself???? If things were flying, it might be good to seek protection. This would appear innate.

That was the lone movement I witnessed. If things were flying I'd have never returned. I believe it was meant to scare me. But I'm not the sort of person to cave to pressure. I would attend mass a couple of times to per week. Not giving into despair was the main thing and it would have been very easy to do. I had a lot of help. Just not the sort you're referencing. But things like this require the kind I had.

There were a few candle issues. They were enclosed in glass and several cracked and one burst. And the glass turned black. That's not a good sign.

Maybe it was a shoddy batch. ;-)

The times where items were moving on their own? If so, did SHE report it to anyone, or get it documented?

She was at an event when that happened. No reports.

I'm sorry, but I have to ask. Are you pranking me? I doubt you are, but I do not wish to invest more time if you are, so I must ask...

No, I wouldn't do that.

I spoke about the issue on another thread that discusses the gift of discernment. You can read my replies.
The tingling sensation thread is interesting. I addressed the responsibilities of discussing the supernatural.
You can view my comments on the sexual sin thread. That's how I use my experiences for the betterment of others.
And likewise on the abortion thread.

If not, did any of them come over to clarify some of these physical claims, i.e. flying objects, etc...

No. I think that's common in movies. I wouldn't go into a house with that going on. Not to verify or refute the person's statements. I know better. That takes a certain kind of curiosity that I lack and adventure. I'm a risk taker but I limit that to money and related subjects.

You know this because...?

If you recall I said three of my friends were getting their butts kicked. They were the three with the greatest knowledge about what I was experiencing because of the things they'd seen or done.

Remember, I was shown some really twisted stuff. I think you can gauge from our dialogue that I'm probably not into gore. But I'll take a pretty handbag!

Oppression is internal. It means the problem is inside of you. Possession means it has taken control and you are no longer calling the shots. They were being harassed for helping me because their tools were the same ones that were part of the problem. And they also provided information that I wasn't supposed to know.

You know the comment about a house divided cannot stand. That was part of the issue. Every tool they used only meant more madness for me. And that required other steps later on to break. It's very involved so don't ask. ;-)

One friend attempted to tell me something. It was a dark practice she knew about and she was incapable of speaking. She said it felt like glass in her throat so she we spoke on messenger instead. She wanted to get it out because the images were getting worse and they were afraid of where it was leading.

All three had "something" bothering them as well. Which was related to my situation. My pal said they went into the store and a guy asked, "what the hell have you been fighting, you look awful!" He was a friend of theirs.

cvanwey · Jan 26, 2019

LaBèlla said:
I think it's dangerous in all truth. If we don't know something it's perfectly fine to say so. Perhaps we can discover the answers together. And I don't believe everything I hear.

I recall a comment made about a Christian pastor. The remark was, "He's a fine man." I asked her how she knew it? She didn't know him personally. She wasn't a member of his church. Her only engagement was through his books and radio ministry. Bill Cosby was a fine man until we discovered otherwise.

I'm a moral relativist. So you might be barking up the wrong tree here. For example... If Bill Cosby repents sincerely to Jesus Christ prior to natural death, does he go to heaven or hell? On the flip side, if an earnest philanthropist devotes their entire life to helping the poor, but rejects the notion of Christ, does he or she go to heaven or hell? The moral argument gets us nowhere, if Christianity is true.

But yeah, let's explore. My question to you is do you truly value if your beliefs are justified? Or is it, instead on some level, wishful thinking?

LaBèlla said:
I understand it more than I say. I used to talk to someone with a similar mindset. His need for proof applied to every area in his life. Well beyond faith. He once questioned my love for him. And asked how I knew.

He sounds paranoid to me. You cannot 'prove' love, hate, jealousy, or any other internal emotion per say... You can only assess their actions against what they say. Maybe your 'signals/actions' led him to such a plausible conclusion....

However, you certainly could prove self moving objects; quite easily

LaBèlla said:
Validation is only important when you have something to prove or a need to prove yourself. I care what "some people think" but not the whole. That's out of my control. Pursuing the methods you mention would only matter if the need existed (it doesn't) or if I planned to publicize my experience and wanted to add to my credibility (I'm not).

Then why have you responded several times? You already know my position. With all due respect, your actions are not matching your words

LaBèlla said:
You're attributing that to the event when it's really personality at work. I'm a Myers Briggs ENTJ-A and an Enneagram 3. What you're suggesting is outwardly driven to a degree that's incompatible with my person. I don't look to others for acceptance or approval. That's why validation is unimaginable. I experience the reverse when I speak. Why I would do something that's rarely needed?

https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/type-3

You must be aware that to make such bold claims are going to be scrutinized. However, regardless of needed or unneeded validation from others, it would seem innate to want to warn the globe that demons are real. You would do the world a great service, in many ways.

LaBèlla said:
I shared those links to help you understand who you're conversing with. I lead. I'm accustomed to being out in front. I'm not a follower or permission seeker. And I'm not a people pleaser either. Why would I look for outside opinion for a project I'm not invested in? That makes no sense.

This response makes little sense, quite frankly...

It's not about being a 'follower,' or 'people pleaser'... It's instead about spreading the message that demons are real. I find it hard to swallow that for 12 months (give/take), it never dawned on you to prove the testimony in which you are openly conveying now?

LaBèlla said:
That was the lone movement I witnessed. If things were flying I'd have never returned. I believe it was meant to scare me. But I'm not the sort of person to cave to pressure. I would attend mass a couple of times to per week. Not giving into despair was the main thing and it would have been very easy to do. I had a lot of help. Just not the sort you're referencing. But things like this require the kind I had.

Wait a minute, I'm confused now... You also stated you would repeatedly see animals, nonnative to your surroundings? Was this validated from others, or the news, or was it only you, whom saw as such as well?

LaBèlla said:
No reports.

That which can be asserted without evidence can certainly be dismissed without evidence

bèlla · Jan 26, 2019

cvanwey said:
I'm a moral relativist. So you might be barking up the wrong tree here. For example... If Bill Cosby repents sincerely to Jesus Christ prior to natural death, does he go to heaven or hell? On the flip side, if an earnest philanthropist devotes their entire life to helping the poor, but rejects the notion of Christ, does he or she go to heaven or hell? The moral argument gets us nowhere, if Christianity is true.

Yeah, this a strange pairing. LOL

But yeah, let's explore. My question to you is do you truly value if your beliefs are justified? Or is it, instead on some level, wishful thinking?

If it is justifiable to me because I'm satisfied. But when it comes to others I'm pretty indifferent. That probably isn't the most "Christian" answer but it's true. I don't expend a lot of energy trying to prove myself. But I don't expect others to do that either.

He sounds paranoid to me. You cannot 'prove' love, hate, jealousy, or any other internal emotion per say... You can only assess their actions against what they say. Maybe your 'signals/actions' led him to such a plausible conclusion....

I wouldn't date him. That may have something to do with it.

However, you certainly could prove self moving objects; quite easily

If it was a random occurrence I would have ignored it. But three random occurrences in a row deserves some fresh air!

Then why have you responded several times? You already know my position. With all due respect, your actions are not matching your words

I'm polite and said I'd answer your questions. If you want to stop conversing that's fine.

You must be aware that to make such bold claims are going to be scrutinized. However, regardless of needed or unneeded validation from others, it would seem innate to want to warn the globe that demons are real. You would do the world a great service, in many ways.

That's your altruism. This is a topic that matters to you. I don't have that burden. I don't wake up wanting to warn the world about this. It isn't about doing the world a service.

This response makes little sense, quite frankly...

It's not about being a 'follower,' or 'people pleaser'... It's instead about spreading the message that demons are real. I find it hard to swallow that for 12 months (give/take), it never dawned on you to prove the testimony in which you are openly conveying now?

I think Rand says it best:

"It only stands to reason that where there's sacrifice, there's someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there's service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master."

All that you can see is 'the greater good' in sharing my story. You aren't considering the price I'd pay by doing it because it isn't one you'd bear. You're asking me to make a sacrifice for others when you don't have to deal with the reality of what that means. I do and so does my daughter.

Wait a minute, I'm confused now... You also stated you would repeatedly see animals, nonnative to your surroundings? Was this validated from others, or the news, or was it only you, whom saw as such as well?

I don't see them anymore. They were white rabbits. I'd encounter them on my walks alone and with my daughter. I usually went out in the evening after dark.

That which can be asserted without evidence can certainly be dismissed without evidence

It can. But that doesn't bother me either. I believe it's important to allow people to draw their own conclusions. I make no exceptions for faith. And I won't beat someone over the head because they feel differently.

Glad I could help.

cvanwey · Jan 26, 2019

LaBèlla said:
If it is justifiable to me because I'm satisfied. But when it comes to others I'm pretty indifferent. That probably isn't the most "Christian" answer but it's true. I don't expend a lot of energy trying to prove myself. But I don't expect others to do that either.

You stated you were tormented for a year. I just find it very curious that it appears to be mundane enough to not want to validate your experiences in some substantial way? On the other hand, seeing some rabbits, here or there, may be explainable without resorting to anything beyond the natural. However, to see self moving objects warrants assessment/validation. Don't you think?

LaBèlla said:
If it was a random occurrence I would have ignored it. But three random occurrences in a row deserves some fresh air!

Again, seems suspicious, to say the least, that all such testimonials happen while one is usually alone I know you do not seem to care, but just saying... If the demon's purpose is to scare people, and to demonstrate existence, seems as though such acts would be performed in front of larger crowds....?

LaBèlla said:
I don't have that burden.

Actually, it would instead be (your) burden to demonstrate the truth of such a bold claim. The fact I'm now asking for justification is only logical

LaBèlla said:
I think Rand says it best:

LaBèlla said:
"It only stands to reason that where there's sacrifice, there's someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there's service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master."

All that you can see is 'the greater good' in sharing my story. You aren't considering the price I'd pay by doing it because it isn't one you'd bear. You're asking me to make a sacrifice for others when you don't have to deal with the reality of what that means. I do and so does my daughter.

Um, seeking protection and/or help, whom could also validate such claims factors nowhere in such a provided statement.

LaBèlla said:
I don't see them anymore. They were white rabbits. I'd encounter them on my walks alone and with my daughter. I usually went out in the evening after dark.

How do some rabbits in the street equal the supernatural? Just wondering? You say they were not native. Well, rabbits are not really native in any city, along with most other animals quite frankly. How were you able to conclude these rabbit sightings were by something other than natural occurrences?

However, it would be curious if you saw 25 elephants, or something quite bazaar, and others reported as such You would at least have a case for something out of the ordinary...

Furthermore, what did your daughter do about these repeated sightings? Nothing, like you?

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