Re-Thinking Hell

P1LGR1M · Aug 23, 2022

Lazarus Short said:
8. Nearly all the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes death, destruction, perishing, God’s wrath and His cursings. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4. The only exception is the banishment of the unrighteous to the Lake of Fire – but that is for their ultimate salvation, otherwise Death cannot be defeated and God cannot become All in all...as we see in I Corinthians 15.

Simply not true. Death is taught about that has nothing to do with our existence here on earth.

John 6:53
King James Version

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

This is a death that exists due to an absence of Eternal Life. Something man is not born with.

Man has physical life and man has his spirit. But he does not have Eternal Life. And no man received Eternal Life until Pentecost when Christ began baptizing men with the Holy Ghost.

So we have an entire Old Testament of people who went through life and the death that exists that is due to the absence of Eternal Life was not resolved.

Thus, like proof-texting Annihilation and Soul Sleep from the Old Testament, the proof texts offered here from the Old Testament are irrelevant. It is not until Christ teaches about Eternal Life and how it is obtained that we can draw conclusions from the whole of Scripture.

So let's look at the one Old Testament verse offered:

Romans 13:4
King James Version

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Seriously? This proves "Nearly all the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell?"

This has a temporal context and is excluded as a proof text for universal salvation. Unless one wants to think the governments of the world are used by God to handle the eternal destinies of men.

Continued...

Carl Emerson · Aug 23, 2022

wendykvw said:
Most men find women to be irrelevant in this forum. At least that has been my experience.

I strongly reject any insinuation of prejudice the fact is I respect your offerings and have looked forward to your input.

P1LGR1M · Aug 23, 2022

Lazarus Short said:
9. All people die, but none of them go to Eternal Conscious Torment – only to the grave or pit. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with “hell” (if present) properly replaced with “sheol” or “hades,” as so often noted in the marginal or center-column reference. Keep in mind that “Hades” is a concept from pagan Greek mythology, just like the name of its ruling “god.”

"Only to the grave or pit?"

Hades is an accepted equivalent for Sheol. If Paul can use a Greek translation that uses it then that is good enough for me.

So you make a dogmatic conclusion that so far hasn't accompanied a single valid Scriptural Basis.

Luke uses the the word Hades when he recounts Christ's teaching of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man was not in a grave or the pit.

He also uses it of Christ:

Acts 2:30-32
King James Version

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

It is obvious Christ didn't remain in a grave or pit while His body lay in the tomb. He went to...

1 Peter 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Scripture doesn't give the picture you are trying to draw. The spirits in prison certainly didn't have everything worked out in this life.

You are making statements that are easily seen as false.

Continued...

Carl Emerson · Aug 23, 2022

wendykvw said:
I would need to see the verse to address the context. But in general God's wrath has a purpose. We see this pattern in scripture. The pattern has been judgment followed by restoration. In Jeremiah chapter 30 for example: vs. 5-7 Jeremiah speaks of judgment, followed by salvation vs.7-11, an incurable wound beyond healing vs 12-15, and then followed by God healing vs. 16-17. Our foundation must rest on God's character and nature. His love is not an emotion, it is His literal essence. If our foundation is in Christ (who is God) who takes away the sins of the world, not based on our works but on His, the outcome is good news for all people. Those who are in Christ, as Paul states are "especially" saved, and those who are not in Christ here and now, will come to know Him.

"For it is for this we labor and strive because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers." 1 Timothy 4:10

The key question for this passage is this: Are the believers included in the same group as the "all men"? In other words, when Paul says "...especially of believers," does he mean that God will save all men including believers, or only believers? To answer this question, we only need to review the other passages where Paul used the same Greek word translated as "especially" (malista - Strong's 3122).

In Galatians 6:10, Paul used almost the exact phrasing when he wrote:

So then, while we have the opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

In this passage, is Paul teaching that we should do good only to those who believe or that we should do good to all people including those who believe? Of course, Paul is teaching that we should do good to everyone including those who believe. Nobody reading this passage would conclude Paul was teaching we are only to do good to fellow believers. This passage is particularly important because Paul uses almost the exact phrasing as in 1 Tim 4:10.

So the annihilation of thousands in a day, contaminated by sin, as we read in various parts of the OT - they are all destined for salvation ?

Receivedgrace · Aug 23, 2022

wendykvw said:
. Satan would never proclaim Jesus is Lord. In fact, Satan desires to be worshiped. I worship Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world. Who do you worship, since you assert Christ was defeated by the evil one?

I have never asserted that Jesus was defeated. That is complete falsehood.
Jesus the One you claim to worship taught eternal condemnation and warned the religious teachers of the day that they would perish in the day of judgment.

P1LGR1M · Aug 23, 2022

Lazarus Short said:
10. For the Hebrews, “sheol,” hidden, covered and unknown, was the state, condition or place of the dead. It was where the body returned to the dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it). See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Well, which is it? the state, condition, or place of the dead?

Again, you are trying to prooftext your position by leaving out all that impacts the issue. I know you are aware that Christ taught of Hades, why does this have no impact on what you are trying to say here?

When we look at Christ's teaching we see that it is not just a matter of a spirit returning to God:

Mat 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. G1067

This does not say God will kill the soul (person) and body in Hell (Gehenna), but He will destroy both soul (person) and body in Hell.

The word translated "to destroy" here is apollymi and is the same word used to translate "lost" here:

Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost G622 sheep of the house of Israel.

Israel was lost. They were in a state of destruction.

Yet they were alive physically.

If Christ taught that people will be destroyed in Hell—how is it again that this is denied?

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Aug 23, 2022

Lazarus Short said:
11. Eternal Conscious Torment depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato. It is clearly pagan.

Actually, it is a major doctrine of the Bible.

Most Bible Students have little trouble seeing it.

Here it is again:

Jude 5-7
King James Version

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jude 11-13
King James Version

11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Universalism teaches forever isn't really forever, and that judgment will be for purging.

Scripture teaches...

2 Peter 2:9
King James Version

9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

That the Day of Judgment will be punishment.

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

It teaches that they will utterly perish.

17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

And taught as unending.

Universalism denies some pretty clear teachings in Scripture.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Aug 23, 2022

Lazarus Short said:
12. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there – and thus, for most of living (and dead) humanity.

That is kind of the point: the Good News (the Gospel) counters the bad news (Man's condition).

Universalism opposes the reason for the Good News, and will convince many with itching ears there is no need to trust in Christ. Hey, just have to spend a little time in purgatory and then have the happily ever after.

Lazarus Short said:
13. Hell violates God’s Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7,16.

This really does reach into the absurd. I'd be curious as to how many universalists would agree with this.

Again, this tries to merge that which is eternal with that which is temporal. Long before God created this universe, before Adam sinned, and before the Covenant of Law was established—Satan had already rebelled and sealed his own fate.

Hell, the Lake of Fire, was already in existence before Man's existence. How then can it violate His Law?

Since the proof texts given are obviously temporal and are not even relevant to the Church, much less Eternal Judgment, let's take a look to see if the proof texts from the New Testament are relevant and support the poster's assertion:

Romans 6:7
King James Version

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Now let's put it back into its context:

Romans 6:3-7
King James Version

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Again, not relevant to the posters beliefs, nor does it support his views: it is only relevant to those who have been baptized into Christ.

It is pretty obvious those who have not been baptized into Christ have been freed from their sin.

And to make physical death the means of one being free from sins is equally absurd.

The next proof text?

Romans 6:16
King James Version

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

I guess because the word death is used in the verse it has some significance to the poster?

Certainly doesn't support the statement "Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee."

My question would be this: do you also think we can celebrate Passover and 1) keep all the first born of Egypt alive and 2) make atonement for sin?

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Aug 23, 2022

Lazarus Short said:
14. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous, due to the presence of God’s Spirit of Life in each of us. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

So the Lord blasphemed by saying...

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Not the first time the Lord was falsely charged with blasphemy.

Which brings me to my next question:

Matthew 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

What exactly do you do with this?

Does the word "not" mean something else?

Is it just hypothetical?

And I see nothing in the proof texts from Genesis and Ecclesiastes that make obsolete the teachings of Christ and Scripture. You would have to explain that.

Continued...

wendykvw · Aug 23, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
And if you think that justifies numerous interpretations you are mistaken.

The error of both Catholics and Protestants have to be presented and addressed to see why one group or the other is in error.

I'll give you something to think about: The Reformation has as one of it's biggest issues the Doctrine of Justification. Catholics say men are justified by faith and works, James makes that clear. Protestants say, "No, Paul makes it clear in Romans 4 that Abraham was justified by faith alone."

Both are right.

Both are wrong.

Why? Because neither is placing their proof texts in a proper context. Both Romans 4 and James 2 are temporal contexts, and just as Zechariah and Elizabeth were justified in a temporal context (Luke 1:5-6)—even so Paul and James speak of Temporal Justification.

If you want Justification in an eternal context, flip back one page to Romans 3.

In Modern Christendom most people who try to debate this issue say the word justification but impose a meaning of Eternal Redemption into it. So what is debated today is, Catholic: men are eternally redeemed by faith and works; Protestant: men are eternally redeemed by faith alone.

Both are wrong.

Man is only Eternally redeemed through the Offering of Christ, and man only receives Eternal Life through faith in Christ.

So when you teach men that it is not necessary to believe in Jesus Christ, His Offering of Himself, His Resurrection, and the need for Regeneration—you make void the Gospel of Jesus Christ which has been God's central message to Man since the Garden.

And while I do believe men can still be temporally justified and just might make it into the Eternal State, that is not the command we have received as Christians:

Matthew 28:18-20
King James Version

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

And it is incontrovertible that Christ taught two fates for mankind: the resurrection unto life, and the resurrection unto damnation.

There will be those who will not be found written in the Book of Life and they are cast into the Lake of Fire. There is nothing in Scripture that teaches this fate is reversed.

Our duty to the lost is to bring them the truth of their condition and the only remedy for that condition. And that remedy is Jesus Christ—alone.

God bless.

What variety of baptists are you? Southern, Reformed, or Free Will?

My view of Justification, Sanctification, and Salvation has changed very little as a universalist.

I would caution you to form your eschatological views solely on Revelation.

wendykvw · Aug 23, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
I strongly reject any insinuation of prejudice the fact is I respect your offerings and have looked forward to your input.

You are the exception. I stated most, not all. And in general, outside this form. I attended a traditional seminary in Texas, and it was difficult. Chauvinism was a problem I contended with often and has been my experience.

P1LGR1M · Aug 23, 2022

Lazarus Short said:
15. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it’s also cold as…Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but Mary K Baxter depicts Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in Eternal Conscious Torment, you must be alive, but you’re dead, and on and on… Fictional descriptions of Hell, especially as seen in the works of Dante, Milton and Baxter, are clearly fictional and un-Biblical.

It might be a good idea to read the Bible instead of books about the Bible.

Darkness is often used to contrast what is good. The mist of darkness forever doesn't require an absence of light, but an absence of good. Secondly, there will be differing degrees of punishment in Hell. For example:

Matthew 10:15
Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

The flame will be hotter for some than others.

And in fact one will be "alive" in the physical sense when they are cast into the Lake of Fire:

Revelation 20
King James Version

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The dead are not resurrected until the end of the Millennial Kingdom. They will have life similar to the life they had while physically alive, because they will be raised from the dead in bodies suited for eternal judgment.

Again, no strong argument here, either.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Aug 23, 2022

wendykvw said:
What variety of baptists are you? Southern, Reformed, or Free Will?

My view of Justification, Sanctification, and Salvation has changed very little as a universalist.

I would caution you to form your eschatological views solely on Revelation.

I'm sorry, but you giving advice on how to form views is, well—hilarious.

God bless.

wendykvw · Aug 23, 2022

Receivedgrace said:
I have never asserted that Jesus was defeated. That is complete falsehood.
Jesus the One you claim to worship taught eternal condemnation and warned the religious teachers of the day that they would perish in the day of judgment.

Your view of Eternal Damnation is a Pagan invention and is taught in Islam as well. What makes Christianity far superior to any pagan religion is the FACT, that Christ is the Savior of the world. But, according to your belief, Christ is unable to cure wickedness, making Satan the ultimate victor.

wendykvw · Aug 23, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
So the annihilation of thousands in a day, contaminated by sin, as we read in various parts of the OT - they are all destined for salvation ?

Please submit the verses you have in mind. Thank you.

wendykvw · Aug 23, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
I'm sorry, but you giving advice on how to form views is, well—hilarious.

God bless.

Ditto. And with that, I will no longer comment or reply to your comments.

BobRyan · Aug 23, 2022

wendykvw said:
Your view of Eternal Damnation is a Pagan invention and is taught in Islam as well. What makes Christianity far superior to any pagan religion is the FACT, that Christ is the Savior of the world. But, according to your belief, Christ is unable to cure wickedness, making Satan the ultimate victor.

Good point. God is not the author and sustainer of infinite rebellion.

Matt 10:28 the body and the soul - are to be destroyed in fiery hell at some point - when it comes to the case of the wicked who refuse the Gospel .

BobRyan · Aug 23, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
It might be a good idea to read the Bible instead of books about the Bible.
And in fact one will be "alive" in the physical sense when they are cast into the Lake of Fire:

Revelation 20
King James Version

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The dead are not resurrected until the end of the Millennial Kingdom. They will have life similar to the life they had while physically alive, because they will be raised from the dead in bodies suited for eternal judgment.

Again, no strong argument here, either.
Continued...

True in the case of the wicked -- which are those raised in the resurrection of judgment and condemnation in Rev 20.

wendykvw · Aug 23, 2022

Dr. Gregory Boyd is speaking on hell Part two. He is a Conditionlist ( annihilationist). I am posting his series on hell, which presents all views of hell.

BobRyan · Aug 23, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
Matthew 10:28 King James Version (KJV)

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

end of story if one is going to accept it as it reads.

P1LGR1M said:
At first glance, it seems that the Lord is speaking about destruction that is complete

The "as it reads" part.

P1LGR1M said:
and most will understand this in physical terms. The word translated destroy is apollymi, and it needs to be pointed out, first, that (in the above verse) is not the same word translated as "kill," which is apokteinō.

Indeed it is going BEYOND what man can do - rather than claiming that God can do even LESS than what man can do.

IT is not logical to say "don't fear they who can kill -- rather fear Him who can do even less"

=============================
Luke 17:29 apollumi

“ but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )

Which is why it is so instructive to see in 2 Peter 2 "destroyed by reducing them to ashes" that we see in 2 Peter 2

2 Peter 2:6
6 “and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes,

Re-Thinking Hell

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