Re-Evaluating Rapture Theology

zeke37 · Feb 5, 2012

interpreter said:
Just because the second coming has already come, that does not mean there is not a third coming (as hinted at in chapters 19 and 20).

wouldn't we be told that,
instead of being told directly that He comes a second time?
(not a third)

the Coming in Rev19 is the same Coming in Mat24

There are two tribulations:

no there is not...
there is general tribulation which all of us face, some more than others
but there is the "great" tribulation, also known as the hour of temptation

the tribulation experienced by the early Church (which ended in 312AD), and the great tribulation of WW II which lasted 3 1/2 years as prophesied.

lol. what about WW1 or any other war?
the scriptures say IMMIDITELY after the tribulation of those days,
that they shall see the sign of the on of man
but not only that,
they shall actually see the son of man COMING in the clouds of heaven

did that occur 4th century? no.
the 312 council was not the Coming of the Lord

interpreter · Feb 6, 2012

zeke37 said:
wouldn't we be told that,
instead of being told directly that He comes a second time?
(not a third)

the Coming in Rev19 is the same Coming in Mat24

Wrong. Matthew 24:30-31 was fufilled in the 4th century. Rev. 19 is about to occur any moment now.

no there is not...
there is general tribulation which all of us face, some more than others
but there is the "great" tribulation, also known as the hour of temptation

lol. what about WW1 or any other war?
the scriptures say IMMIDITELY after the tribulation of those days,
that they shall see the sign of the on of man
but not only that,
they shall actually see the son of man COMING in the clouds of heaven

did that occur 4th century? no.
the 312 council was not the Coming of the Lord

There are two tribulations; the tribulation of John's day and the great tribulation of WW II.
WW I Germany was the second six of the 666 trilogy (with Rome of John's day being the original head # 6, and Hitler's Third Reich being the third six).
After the tribulation of John's day, the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds as prophesied.
Actually the original Greek says every eye will see it (meaning the sign of the Son of Man in the clouds). If it was too cloudy they soon saw it on all Roman Armor, and on Roman coins, and in Church art.

zeke37 · Feb 6, 2012

interpreter said:
Wrong. Matthew 24:30-31 was fufilled in the 4th century. Rev. 19 is about to occur any moment now.

lol.
Mat24 has a gathering FROM heaven included in it.
and it's the time of the dead.
just like in 1Thes4/1Cor15/Rev11

Rev19 is His leaving heaven with those dead in Christ, to come here,
iow just prior to the trump (great/last/of God/7th)

the time of the dead/raising of the dead
did not occur in the 4th century.
the dead do not walk among us today, nor in the 4th century.
but they will at His Coming, even described in Mat24

There are two tribulations; the tribulation of John's day and the great tribulation of WW II.

no. there has always been tribulation.
and there is ONE great tribulation that is worse than any other time,
and that is the one spoken about in Mat 24,
where the gospel would be spread to all kingdoms and peoples,
and then the end would come.

again, not fulfilled in the 4th century.
not in WW1 nor WW2

WW I Germany was the second six of the 666 trilogy (with Rome of John's day being the original head # 6, and Hitler's Third Reich being the third six).

i don't buy it.
i'd rather look to the already given biblical examples
of the number 666 and 6.
i mean, we have them for us already...why not use them

After the tribulation of John's day, the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds as prophesied.

nope, because at the sign of the Son of Man,
the tribes of the earth shall see the Son of Man
actually coming in the clouds of heaven.

not just a sign...
but His actual Coming (right after He leaves heaven in Rev19)

Actually the original Greek say every eye will see it (meaning the sign of the Son of Man in the clouds). If it was too cloudy they soon saw it on all Roman Armor, and on Roman coins, and in Church art.

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

plus, the whole Christian world was not united in the 4th century.
not even the whole portion that was alive then, was united.
nor was the whole world under Rome at that time...

vinsight4u · Feb 18, 2012

vinsight4u · Feb 18, 2012

zeke37 · Feb 18, 2012

vinsight4u said:
God's people are called to leave Babylon before Babylon gets her plagues on her. The seven trumpet plagues are not Babylon's was remembered for her sins plague times.

trumpet plagues - not God's wrath plagues

vials -full of God's wrath plagues
/Babylon gets remembered for her sin.

God's wrath is the "plagues" in Rev18.
so the "plauges" in the trumpets are not God's wrath at all.
that is one reason how we, the church, are here for it all.

vinsight4u said:
Isaiah 58:1 shows that lift up thy voice as a trumpet time is it when it will be Israel that will soon get punished for her sins.

Israel is only going to be punished by choas/plagues that comes in less than full amounts.

Babylon will remembered later and get full cup (strength) punishments/plagues.

yes, that is the difference between the tribulation, and the wrath of God.
but the church exists here for both....

those faithfull of the church will be gathered to Jesus at His Coming tho and thus will not experience the wrath.
that is what is meant IMO when they are called out of Babylon in 18:4.

interpreter · Feb 19, 2012

zeke37 said:
lol.
Mat24 has a gathering FROM heaven included in it.
and it's the time of the dead.
just like in 1Thes4/1Cor15/Rev11

Rev19 is His leaving heaven with those dead in Christ, to come here,
iow just prior to the trump (great/last/of God/7th)

the time of the dead/raising of the dead
did not occur in the 4th century.
the dead do not walk among us today, nor in the 4th century.
but they will at His Coming, even described in Mat24

Mat. 24:31 was fulfilled in 325 AD when the first horseman, St. Constantine, sent his messengers with a trumpet, and gathered all the Church together, to Nicea. There was no time of the dead. The martyrs are raised later, in chapter 20, in the third coming.

no. there has always been tribulation.
and there is ONE great tribulation that is worse than any other time,
and that is the one spoken about in Mat 24,
where the gospel would be spread to all kingdoms and peoples,
and then the end would come.

again, not fulfilled in the 4th century.
not in WW1 nor WW2The great tribulation was fulfilled in WW II which lasted 3 1/2 years as prophesied. Hitler's Third Reich is the third 6 of the 666 trilogy. Anyhow, chapter 19 does not immediately follow the great tribulation. In between are the 7 last plagues which we are experiencing now.

i don't buy it.
i'd rather look to the already given biblical examples
of the number 666 and 6.
i mean, we have them for us already...why not use them

Click to expand...

Is not pagan Rome the original head # 6? Was not the Second Reich and Third Reich (the second and 3rd reign of Rome) just as evil?

nope, because at the sign of the Son of Man,
the tribes of the earth shall see the Son of Man
actually coming in the clouds of heaven.

not just a sign...
but His actual Coming (right after He leaves heaven in Rev19)

Click to expand...

There is a lot of symbolism in the Revelation. Jesus came into power through St. Constantine, the 1st horseman. The day the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds is known as the turning point of history. Ever since that day, Christian nations have been the dominant force on earth, and will be to the end. Resistance is futile.
As for the 3rd coming (ch. 19 & 20), we shall soon see if He comes in person or not.

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

plus, the whole Christian world was not united in the 4th century.
not even the whole portion that was alive then, was united.
nor was the whole world under Rome at that time...

Rev. 1:7 should be translated "every eye shall see it."
St. Constantine united the entire Christian world.

zeke37 · Feb 19, 2012

interpreter said:
Mat. 24:31 was fulfilled in 325 AD when the first horseman, St. Constantine, sent his messengers with a trumpet, and gathered all the Church together, to Nicea. There was no time of the dead. The martyrs are raised later, in chapter 20, in the third coming.

Rev. 1:7 should be translated "every eye shall see it."
St. Constantine united the entire Christian world.

ahhhhh.....no.
anyway, he did not see a Christian cross
he saw ankh

the "time of the dead" follows the 2nd Coming of Christ,
and that did not happen in the 4th century

you and the pre tribbers believe something in common...a third Coming...

a "third" coming is fiction

interpreter · Feb 19, 2012

zeke37 said:
lol, 3 comings...u sound like the pre tribers...

the bible says He comes a second time...
or
He will come again.....

not that He comes a second time, and we missed it,
and then He comes again
lol.

The day that the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds is known as the turning point of history. Ever since that day, Christian nations have been the dominant force on earth. And we will be to the end, but it requires a third coming.

zeke37 · Feb 19, 2012

ya i heard you the first time.
your still wrong in your evaluation tho.
anyway, an ankh is not a Christian cross.

interpreter · Feb 19, 2012

Choose Wisely said:
That point of view quickly falls apart when we realize that Lot left Sodom and those that remained suffered the conquences.

It was the same in the days of Lot. Of all the Sodomites, only the good residents remained after all the bad residents were taken away. And there's a lot of Sodomites today who will be taken.

zeke37 · Feb 19, 2012

the "sign" is the son of Man coming in the Clouds of heaven with great glory

not an ankh

Bible2 · Mar 2, 2012

HeavensWorship said in post #1:

God waited until Methuselah died (the last God fearing man) before the flood came.

That's right.

But some people who mistakenly connect the flood analogy in Luke 17:26-37 with the tribulation wouldn't want to look to Methuselah as an example of how it can be good to die before a time of suffering comes (Isaiah 57:1). Instead, they want to look to Enoch as their example, saying that just as Enoch was raptured before the flood, so the church will raptured before the tribulation.

But the fact is that Enoch wasn't raptured so that he wouldn't have to go through the flood (along with righteous Noah in the ark), for Enoch (Noah's great grandfather) was translated 669 years before the flood:

Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. This is based on verses in the Bible which make it possible to work back from the year that Solomon's temple began to be built:

Historians say that Solomon's temple began to be built about 966 BC.
And 1 Kings 6:1 says that Solomon's temple began to be built 480 years after the Exodus of Israel from Egypt.
And Exodus 12:40-41 says that Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus.
And Genesis 47:9 shows that Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 years old.
And Genesis 25:26 says that Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 years old.
And Genesis 21:5 says that Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 years old.
And Genesis 11:26 shows that Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 years old.
And Genesis 11:24 says that Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 years old.
And Genesis 11:22 says that Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 years old.
And Genesis 11:20 says that Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 years old.
And Genesis 11:18 says that Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 years old.
And Genesis 11:16 says that Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 years old.
And Genesis 11:14 says that Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 years old.
And Genesis 11:12 says that Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 years old.
And Genesis 11:10 says that Arphaxad was born two years after the flood.

So all we have to do is add up the numbers of years above to see that Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC.

Then, to determine when Enoch was translated, we need to work further back:

If Arphaxad was born two years after the flood, then Arphaxad was born about 2456 BC.
And Genesis 11:10 says that Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 years old.
And Genesis 11:10 and Genesis 7:6 taken together show that Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 years old.
And Genesis 5:28-29 says that Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 years old.
And Genesis 5:25 says that Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 years old.
And Genesis 5:21 says that Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 years old.

Adding up the numbers of years above, we find that Enoch was born about 3492 BC. He was translated when he was 365 years old (Genesis 5:23-24), so he was translated about 3127 BC, 669 years before the flood.

Adding those 669 years to Enoch's age of 365 years, we find that Enoch was 1,034 years old at the time of the flood, which means had he stayed on the earth he would have almost certainly died from old age before the flood came. For Methuselah (Noah's grandfather) was the longest-living person who stayed on the earth, and Methuselah died at the age of 969 (Genesis 5:27).

Methuselah died the same year as the flood. For Enoch was born about 3492 BC, and Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 years old (Genesis 5:21). So Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and he died 969 years later, which was about 2458 BC, the same year as the flood. Methuselah could have died of old age right before the flood started. God could have waited to bring the flood until after Methuselah died of old age and was buried.

Lamech (Noah's father) had already died, some 5 years before the flood. For Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 years old (Genesis 5:25). So Lamech was born about 3240 BC, and he died 777 years later (Genesis 5:31), which was about 2463 BC, 5 years before the flood.

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The ages of the individuals in Genesis (such as in Genesis 5:5-32 and Genesis 11:11-25) should be taken seriously, just as everything else in the Bible should be taken seriously (Matthew 4:4b, 2 Timothy 3:16). There's no reason not to.

Even science has found that just naturally some multi-cellular organisms don't experience senescence (See "Biological Immortality"). And it's scientifically possible for human cell cultures even currently to live much longer than the current maximum human lifespan of about 120 years (cf. Genesis 6:3); indeed, human cell cultures can be made by scientists to live indefinitely, so that they become what are called "immortal cells". This is accomplished by causing them to express the telomere-lengthening enzyme telomerase, so that the cells don't shorten their telomeres when they divide (normal cells do shorten them, causing the cells to die when their telomeres get too short). The problem with this is that it results in the cells becoming cancerous, but God would know how to prevent that, even if humans don't yet know how (cf. Luke 18:27).

---

HeavensWorship said in post #1:

Could Jesus mean when one will be "taken" and the other left, that he or she will be "taken" in death?

The Noah and Lot analogies in Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41 aren't referring to a dying off of the righteous before the tribulation (just as they aren't referring to a rapture of the righteous before the tribulation), but rather to what will happen at the second coming of Jesus, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37b,39b), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), when Jesus will bring the second-coming day of wrath/day of the Lord (Zephaniah 1:14-15, 1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10) upon the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21).

Those "taken" at the second coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken where they will be killed and birds will eat their corpses (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (e.g. John 19:16-18).

But Luke 17:27b,29b and Matthew 24:39 don't mean that all unsaved people will be killed at the second coming, because Luke 17:34-36 and Matthew 24:40-41 go on to show that some unsaved people will be left alive at that time (cf. Zechariah 14:16-19). So in Luke 17:26-30 and Matthew 24:37-39, the point of the comparison isn't that all unsaved people will be killed at the second coming, but that none of them will be expecting to be killed, but will be eating and drinking without worry right up to the day of the second coming.

Those "left" where they are at the second coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by the devil after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at the second coming, saved people will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17), the purpose of which rapture meeting is so that saved people can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky to bring his second-coming wrath upon the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

Bible2 · Mar 2, 2012

HeavensWorship said in post #1:

I mean there won't be a rapture when Jesus "sneaks" into the world to get His bride, and then another rapture when He comes yet again!

That's exactly right.

Some people who hold to the (mistaken) pre-tribulation rapture view feel that 1 Thessalonians 5:2b supports the idea of a pre-trib, secret coming of Jesus to rapture the church and begin the tribulation. But not all thieves in the night come secretly, like cat burglars. Some thieves like to rob homes via what's called a "home invasion", which is quite obvious, and which can involve the thieves not only stealing, but also killing and destroying (cf. John 10:10, 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The scriptures themselves make clear that Jesus' coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2, Matthew 24:43-44, Revelation 16:15) doesn't mean that he will come quietly or secretly: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16), "with a great sound of a trumpet" (Matthew 24:31). And "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:27, cf. Matthew 24:43-44). "Behold, I come as a thief" (Revelation 16:15); "Behold, he cometh with clouds [cf. 1 Thessalonians 4:17]; and every eye shall see him" (Revelation 1:7).

Instead, Jesus' coming as a thief in the night means that he will come even upon Christians when they aren't expecting him if they stop watching (staying awake, spiritually). Compare: "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3b). Also, some in the church will still be alive on the earth during the final stage of the tribulation, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). So his coming won't overtake them like a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:4, Matthew 24:43).

With regard to Jesus coming as a thief to the unsaved world, when it isn't expecting him (1 Thessalonians 5:3, Matthew 24:39), nothing requires that the unsaved world will be expecting Jesus' second coming after the tribulation. For during the tribulation the unsaved world could come to believe that Jesus has already returned and is already on the earth (cf. Matthew 24:24-26).

The beast which comes up out of the earth (Revelation 13:11-16) represents the man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). He could currently be a (secretly apostate) cardinal in the Roman Catholic Church, preparing himself to become the next pope. If he becomes the next pope, he could begin his tenure by making a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Are we not all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What is more important than this?"

He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "A Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the terrible reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, the next pope could come to hold high positions of power in two religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the two horns of the False Prophet lamb (Revelation 13:11).

This would be similar to how the seven horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding seven positions of power at the same time (cf. Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12).

The False Prophet's appearing figuratively "like a lamb" (Revelation 13:11) could mean that he will present himself to the world as being a Christian, for Jesus refers to Christians as being figurative "lambs" (John 21:15b, Luke 10:3). Also, Jesus warns Christians against false prophets who falsely present themselves as being "sheep" (Matthew 7:15), meaning falsely present themselves as being Christians, for Christians are figurative "sheep" (Matthew 10:16).

Or the False Prophet could even present himself to the world as being Jesus himself, for Jesus appears figuratively as a lamb in Revelation 5:6. Jesus is also referred to as a figurative lamb 27 other times in the book of Revelation. Jesus is also referred to as a figurative lamb four other times in the New Testament: in John 1:29, John 1:36, Acts 8:32, and 1 Peter 1:19.

During the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7), even though the world will worship both Lucifer/Satan (the dragon: Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast: Revelation 13:3b-4,8), this won't require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil or turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, Jesus himself isn't the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this wouldn't require that the Antichrist deny a second coming of Jesus. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of the second coming of Jesus, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God (Jesus in Islam -- Wikipedia). For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus, returned to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God, and he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). (This is one reason why it's so important to know when and how the real Jesus' second coming will happen: Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7-20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21.)

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-17, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society.

The False Prophet could miraculously call fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) are the true God (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be a counterfeit of how the true prophet Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

The person that the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who ordered people to commit genocide and kill babies (e.g. 1 Samuel 15:3), while Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)".

The truth is that Jesus confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31). Jesus died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy (Isaiah 53, cf. 1 Peter 2:24), and rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy (Psalms 16:10, cf. Acts 2:31). He died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28) which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14) which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament from its first book, Genesis (Genesis 3:15).

Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). Satan could be worshipped not as "Satan", which most everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could lie and say that it's YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind.

Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22) and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer instead (Revelation 13:4), they could say that (the non-flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer (the devil) is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

The truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18); Jesus the Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus the Christ identified himself only with the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus the Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus the Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have the knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4).

Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24), returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say that he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine Son of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians now rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as God (the Son) along with God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

Near the end of the coming tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13), and these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the armies of the world to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14). After gathering together at Armageddon, all the armies will then travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20-20:3).

So the second coming of Jesus Christ will be a total shock to the unsaved people of the world. They will have been expecting to wage war against only what they will consider to be (in their words) "that cruel Old Testament god, YHWH", and expecting to wage war against him with the help of the good Jesus (played by the False Prophet) and with the help of the true and beneficent Christ/God (played by Lucifer) and with the help of the good Son of God (played by the Antichrist) and with the help of the good angels of God (played by the fallen angels of Lucifer: Revelation 12:9b). But then instead of some evil god appearing in the sky, the world could see the glorious sign of the Cross (cf. Matthew 24:30), the symbol of the good YHWH dying for our sins (Acts 20:28b). And then the world will see the glorious appearance of the real Jesus (Matthew 24:30b, Revelation 1:7), sitting on a white horse descending from the sky (Revelation 19:11).

"Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Revelation 22:20). "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come" (Revelation 22:17).

When the unsaved people of the world realize, the moment they see the real Jesus returning, how thoroughly they have been duped (by the devil, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet), and when they see in the sky all the holy, mighty angels (Matthew 25:31, 2 Thessalonians 1:7) of the true Christ, the true Son of God, and the good YHWH, who are all the one and the same Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the unsaved people of the world could utterly mourn and wail for themselves (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus has returned in wrath to destroy most of them for their unrepentant sins (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, Revelation 19:15).

Bible2 · Mar 2, 2012

HeavensWorship said in post #1:

I mean there won't be a rapture when Jesus "sneaks" into the world to get His bride, and then another rapture when He comes yet again!

You're right. With regard to the bride, the parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his second coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Revelation 19:7 likewise shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until Revelation 19, which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18.

In the parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25:1-13), the extra oil (Matthew 25:4) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter into the marriage of the church at the second coming of Jesus (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21). So the parable of the ten virgins applies to how believers are to prepare themselves spiritually for the second coming (Matthew 25:10).

But that preparation will also be valuable during the coming tribulation (which will precede the second coming: Matthew 24:29-30), for it's only by obeying Jesus now, in these days and during the tribulation, that believers' spiritual houses will be on the rock (Matthew 7:24-25), so that during the storm of the tribulation they won't fall away (commit apostasy) (Matthew 7:26-27, 2 Thessalonians 2:3) due to their awful suffering during the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Isaiah 8:21-22, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, 1 Peter 4:12-13).

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Matthew 25:10's bridal chamber will be in the clouds of the sky at the second coming of Jesus (Revelation 19:7, 1 Thessalonians 4:17), immediately after the tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18 (Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, with regard to the marriage supper (Revelation 19:9), note that it hasn't yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't occur until after the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18. For, with regard to the church, it will be a literal feast which will occur in the earthly Jerusalem after the second coming of Jesus and the resurrection and marriage of the church at that time (Isaiah 25:6-9, 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7-20:6, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will feast on good meats and wines (Isaiah 25:6-9), the birds will feast on the corpses of the armies of the world defeated at the second coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

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HeavensWorship said in post #1:

I think if you re-read all of the rapture scriptures, and all of the scripture about end-time prophecy that you will see that the great tribulation will begin when the antichrist takes over. At that time all who are true followers of Christ will be martyred . . .

Actually, not all true followers of Christ will be martyred. For Revelation 12's "woman" fleeing into and remaining in a protected place in the wilderness for 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church on the earth who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places on the earth during the entire time of the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7).

The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church on the earth during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities, and will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Her giving birth to the "man child" and its being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness (Revelation 12:6) represents the mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4-5, TR) (like Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies into heaven: Hebrews 11:5, 2 Kings 2:11).

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Revelation 12's "woman" represents the church because she's clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). The moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents the devil under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). The crown of twelve stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the twelve apostles (Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26) who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Also, regarding Revelation 12:1, it should be emphasized that Genesis 37:9-10 isn't being referred to there, because in Revelation 12:1, the church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob (cf. Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9b,12b). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet (cf. Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have the twelve sons of Jacob placed over her (cf. Genesis 37:9-10), but the twelve apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom is over one of her twelve tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

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Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church all around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different protected wilderness places all around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16) in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully-stocked with all the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18), when he will be given power to make war against all those in the church that he can get his hands on, and to overcome them and kill them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13).

(Continued in next post)

Bible2 · Mar 2, 2012

(Continued from prior post)

Near the end of the coming tribulation, those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16:15) will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). These protective chambers could be prepared by believers now, before the tribulation begins, and believers could hide in these chambers, out in the wilderness (Revelation 12:6a), not only during the time of the vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), but also during the preceding 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6b) of the worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:5-18).

One way to prepare protective chambers would be to bury old shipping containers, which shipping and trucking companies could have stacked up in their back lots ready to sell cheap to anyone who will take them off their hands. They may even be willing to truck them out to one's site in the wilderness for a reasonable fee.

Once one has a few 50-foot shipping containers at one's wilderness site, one can rent a bulldozer for a few days and dig big trenches in which to bury the shipping containers. The trenches need to be deep enough so that once one has put the shipping containers into them one can pile six feet of dirt on top of the shipping containers. For six feet of dirt is required to stop radiation from any radioactive fallout from reaching the containers. Also, six feet of dirt will serve as great insulation so that the shipping containers will remain at a pleasant 68 degrees all year, no matter how hot or cold it gets on the surface.

Once one has lowered the shipping containers into the trenches, one can then cut a manhole in the center of the top of each container, and then cut two smaller, six-inch ventilation holes in the top of each end of each container. Then one can attach to the manhole a seven-foot-long vertical pipe with the same diameter as the manhole, and attach to the ventilation holes seven-foot-long vertical pipes with the same diameter as the ventilation holes. Then one can use the bulldozer to carefully bury the containers, without breaking off the vertical pipes.

One will then need to secure the top of each manhole pipe with some sort of thick metal or thick PVC-like (perhaps screw-on) cover that can be locked from both the outside (when one is away from the container) and from the inside (when one is inside the container). To keep any radioactive dust or ash from entering very far into the ventilation pipes, one can place a cylindrical air filter near the top of each one. And to keep rain, insects, and small animals from entering into the ventilation pipes and affecting the filters, one can place a screen and side-vented cap over the top of each ventilation pipe. Another thing to worry about is floodwater pouring into the ventilation pipes. So one's wilderness site shouldn't be in a floodplain, but on high-enough ground where it won't be flooded.

Once the containers are buried, one can place a long, extendable ladder down the manhole pipe of each container. And one can go down inside each container and place a small battery-powered fan inside one of its ventilation holes, to be turned on whenever fresh air is needed in the container. One's containers will then be all set to start stocking with food, water, and all other needed supplies whenever one wants to do that.

Because one of the reasons to go underground is to be hidden out of sight of hostile people during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, one will want to restore the surface of the ground above the buried containers so that it, as much as possible, appears like it did before one began digging. The tops of the manhole and ventilation pipes of each container will need to be camouflaged with brush, so that any hostile people passing by won't notice them. Also, in case some hostile people with dogs happen to pass by while one is hiding inside a container, one will need to place some long-dead (non-smelling) carcass of a small animal near enough to each ventilation pipe so that if the dogs pick up the scent of one and one's family and pets emanating from a ventilation pipe, the hostile people with the dogs will think that their dogs are just interested in the carcass of the animal, and won't start rummaging through the brush and discover the ventilation pipe.

Besides camouflaging one's underground hideout so that no hostile people will even notice it during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, before the tribulation even starts and one is still thinking about where in the wilderness to place one's hideout, one will need to be very circumspect about who one tells about one's plans. One will want to tell only those people who are 100% committed to joining one in hiding in one's containers during the Antichrist's worldwide reign. For if one gets any other people involved in knowing before the Antichrist's worldwide reign exactly where one's hideout is located, during the Antichrist's worldwide reign those same people could be captured by the Antichrist's police or soldiers and under torture tell them the location of one's hideout. Or those same people, even if they aren't captured, could start to get very hungry during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, and so could decide to go out to one's hideout and demand to be fed with one's supplies, even though one didn't store up enough for them because before the tribulation they'd said that they definitely weren't going to join one in one's hideout.

Another thing to remember is that even before the Antichrist's worldwide reign, even when communicating with those who are 100% committed to joining one in one's hideout during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, one must never refer to the location of one's hideout over the internet or over a cell phone or landline phone, or even in one's car or home, as all of these could be currently tapped and recorded by intelligence and law enforcement agencies, and their surveillance records could later be searched by the Antichrist's police or soldiers to determine the location of one's hideout. For the same reason, one must not have any device with a GPS chip (such as a cell phone, tablet computer, laptop computer, OnStar, LoJack, Garmin, TomTom, etc.) with one when one is out at one's wilderness location, as the GPS chip(s) could be secretly pinged remotely in order to determine the location of one's hideout. One will also need to have one's car, shoes, thick clothing, and all supplies intended for one's hideout electronically swept for any GPS chips covertly placed in them by intelligence or law enforcement agencies.

(More generally, during the tribulation, as now, whenever one wants to keep one's cell phone with one but at the same time avoid having one's movements tracked through it, place it in a small box, like a cigar box, and wrap the box completely with foil, so that no cell phone signals can reach the cell phone. To make sure there are no tiny gaps or tears in the foil through which signals can enter, once the cell phone is in the foil-wrapped box, call it from another phone and see if it rings. If it does, hang up, and wrap the box with a second layer of foil and call again. If the cell phone doesn't ring, that means no signals can reach it, and so one's movements can't be tracked through it.)

And when one makes one's final trip out to one's hideout, when one will begin hiding there during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, one will need to abandon one's car many miles from one's hideout and walk the rest of the way, as otherwise one's car will easily catch the attention of any passing hostile people or any patrolling drone aircraft. And even if one abandons one's car many miles away from one's hideout, one will still want to camouflage the car in order to avoid it being seen and starting a general search of the area.

Some think that everyone in the cities will try to go out into the wilderness during the tribulation. But that may not be the case, because almost all people in the cities don't have hunting/fishing and other wilderness survival skills, and almost all people in the cities won't know of any well-stocked hideouts in the wilderness, and so they won't think that there's any food out in the wilderness, or that they will be able to construct any decent shelter out there. They will think of the wilderness as only barren rocks and trees and mountains, and so they will stay in the cities where they have some chance of finding food and shelter. And if the cities come under martial law, they could become the safest places to be, as the military could bring order to them and supply them with emergency food and water. And the cities have plenty of shelter.

But martial law will cut both ways in that once the Antichrist takes over everything (Revelation 13:7), the cities could become huge military prisons, where people will have to receive the mark of the beast on their right hand or forehead if they want to be able to buy any food (Revelation 13:16-17). And everyone will have to worship Lucifer (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-10) and an image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) if they don't want to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4). Believers must be willing to be beheaded, for if they go ahead and take the mark and worship Lucifer and the Antichrist and his image, they will ultimately lose their salvation and suffer eternal punishment in fire and brimstone (Revelation 14:9-14).

We shouldn't assume that we will necessarily be able to stand up well under the hunger (and possibly torture) and beheading which will be imposed upon those of us who will be trapped within the cities during the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 20:4). Many of us could eventually give in and take the mark of the Antichrist's name or name-number (which mark we will need in order to be allowed to buy food: Revelation 13:17) when our hunger and the hunger of our crying little ones reaches a certain point (Isaiah 8:21-22); and we could give in and worship Lucifer (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4,8) and his image when we're confronted with us and our little ones being tortured and beheaded if we don't do those things (Revelation 13:15b, Revelation 20:4). It will be much, much better for us to avoid these horrors by fleeing into prepared places in the wilderness right before the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign of terror begins (Revelation 12:6, Matthew 24:15-16).

Bible2 · Mar 2, 2012

HeavensWorship said in post #1:

Isaiah 57 says that the LORD will take away the righteous from the evil to come. How? the scripture is clear in Isaiah 57.. death

Some in the church will escape all of the tribulation (Luke 21:36) by dying before it starts (cf. Isaiah 57:1). But others in the church will escape all of the tribulation (Luke 21:36) by being physically protected on the earth during it (e.g. Revelation 12:14-16, cf. Psalms 91).

All obedient believers will be spiritually protected during the tribulation, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). And some in the church will also be physically protected during some or all of that time, while others in the church won't be physically protected during that time.

The 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:4), along with some others in the church, will be physically protected so that they will survive the first stage (Revelation 6) of the coming tribulation, while many others in the church won't be physically protected, so that they will die during that first stage, and their souls will enter into heaven (Revelation 7:9,14).

After the first stage is over, the 144,000 part of the church will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection (Revelation 9:4) before the seventh seal of the tribulation is unsealed (Revelation 8:1). Out of the seventh seal will come the seven trumpets of the tribulation (Revelation 8:1-2). The events of the first six trumpets up to Revelation 9:19 will be the second stage of the tribulation. The seal that the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of the Holy Spirit himself which they and all other believers receive: Ephesians 1:13b) will physically protect them during this second stage (Revelation 9:4). Everyone else in the church still alive on the earth at that time won't necessarily be physically protected, but at least some will be.

This physical protection of some in the church but not others in the church during the coming tribulation will be similar to how the first-century local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) was physically protected during one specific first-century tribulation (Revelation 3:10) while the first-century local church congregation in the city of Smyrna in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) wasn't physically protected during that one specific first-century tribulation (Revelation 2:10).

After the second stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 is over, the 144,000 male virgins part of the church (like Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies into heaven: Hebrews 11:5, 2 Kings 2:11) will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 12:5; Revelation 14:4-5, TR), right before the third stage of the tribulation, the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), begins (Revelation 12:5-6, Revelation 13:5-8). This 3.5-year time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11-14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:9-13).

The 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:1,4) will remain up in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, TR) during the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-10) while two other parts of the church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents all those in the church who will flee into wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14), and the remnant of the woman's seed (Revelation 12:17) who will be all those in the church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected, but will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

After the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist is declared legally over at the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the seven plagues of the seven vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly temple opening of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5-16:1). These seven vials will be the fourth and final stage (Revelation 16) of the tribulation.

Because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials of God's wrath will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth during that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7).

So some in the church will survive the entire future tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18 while remaining on the earth. They are those who will be alive on the earth at the second coming of Jesus to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (cf. Psalms 91) throughout the entire tribulation, without having to have been part of the 144,000.

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HeavensWorship said in post #7:

Also note that it says in Revelation 13 that he (Antichrist) causes ALL to receive the mark.

The original Greek word (pas, G3956) translated as "all" in Revelation 13:16 doesn't have to mean absolutely all, but can mean "all manner of" (Acts 10:12). Revelation 13:16 means that all manner of people, "both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond", will receive the mark. Revelation 13:16 doesn't mean that absolutely all people will receive the mark, because there will be Christians on the earth who won't receive the mark, but will either flee into God-protected wilderness places (Revelation 12:6,14-16) or remain in the cities and be martyred (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4). Also, there will be some unsaved elect Jews who will refuse to receive the mark, and so they will be able to be saved by Jesus when they see him in person at his second coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14). Anyone who receives the mark can never be saved (Revelation 14:9-11).

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HeavensWorship said in post #24:

. . . the Antichrist will be Islamic.

The Antichrist could have grown up as a Druze Arab, in Lebanon, in the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4). So he could at first present himself to the world as being of the (quasi-Islamic) Druze religion, which is waiting for the second coming of a God-man named "Hakim".

The Antichrist's last name could be "Hakim", and he could first present himself to the Druze people as the fulfillment of the second coming of the God-man "Hakim". In this way, he could get the Druze to support him without question during an initial rise to power among the Arabs. The Druze could be the numerically "small people" of Daniel 11:23. The Antichrist could make them his completely-devoted bodyguard, and buy them many key positions of power within a United Arab States (which the Antichrist could become the leader of) and employ them as loyal spies at all levels of his United Arab government and military.

The Druze religion is very secretive. What it teaches to its higher-level initiates isn't even taught to its lower-level initiates. What it could teach to its higher-level initiates could basically be Gnosticism mixed in with the Hakim God-man idea. The Antichrist himself, while outwardly a Druze, could inwardly be a Gnostic Luciferian; he could be a highest-level initiate of a worldwide secret society which ultimately teaches Gnostic Luciferianism, but keeps this a secret even from its own members who haven't been initiated into its highest level.

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The Antichrist won't support Islam (in its past and current form) during his (literal) 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), insofar as Islam has always affirmed, and currently still affirms, that Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:157, Koran 4:171), whereas the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Islam has always affirmed, and currently still affirms, that Christ is in the flesh, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3). And Islam has always affirmed, and currently still affirms, that the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Islam has always affirmed, and currently still affirms, that no man can be God, whereas the Antichrist will say that he's God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Islam has always forbidden, and currently still forbids, the worship of any images (Koran 21:52, Koran 6:74), whereas the Antichrist will have an image made of himself to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15). And Islam has always rejected, and currently still rejects, Satan/Lucifer as being evil, whereas the Antichrist will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, cf. Revelation 12:9). So the religion of the Antichrist during his 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Islam in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

Nonetheless, before Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) gives the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-7), the Antichrist, and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be a future, apostate pope), could at first pretend to wholly support Islam in its current form (as well as Christianity), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.

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HeavensWorship said in post #24:

The Antichrist will come. The world will know him as the Islamic Mahdi.

During the Antichrist's rise to power -- i.e. before he declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4) and begins his 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18) -- if he greatly increases the military and political power of the Arab world, which is mostly Muslim, some Muslims could declare him to be the Mahdi. They could do this even though he won't fulfill many of the specific Muslim prophecies regarding the Mahdi. For it needs to be remembered that the Muslim prophecies regarding the Mahdi aren't scriptural, and so nothing requires that they will all be fulfilled. Also, the Antichrist could reject the (solely-human) title of the "Mahdi" in his own mind as being far beneath what he sees as his divinity. And before he declares himself to be God, if he rejects the title of "Mahdi" publicly, he could pretend to do this for humble reasons, saying something like: "Oh, no, I am not the great Mahdi, but a humble peacemaker who wants the best for all Arabs and for all mankind, no matter what religion they may presently follow", etc.

Also, the first person Muslims will declare to be the Mahdi may not even be the Antichrist, for before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45), an Iraqi Baathist General could lead an all-out war against Israel which will result in the defeat and occupation of Israel (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"). This Iraqi Baathist General could then be hailed by the Muslims worldwide as the Mahdi. But he will subsequently suffer a defeat (perhaps in Algeria) and he will disappear from the scene (Daniel 11:18-19), so that the Muslims could say that they were mistaken in thinking that he was the Mahdi.

Similarly, years later, when the Antichrist claims to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:4) and starts forcing the world to worship him (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and Lucifer (the dragon) (Revelation 13:4) and an image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), if some Muslims had said that he was the Mahdi, some of them could say that they were mistaken. Also, these actions by the Antichrist will result in a fatwa (an Islamic death sentence) being issued against him, which fatwa Islamic terrorists could then try to carry out by waging all-out jihad against him. For they hold most strongly to Islam's tenets that no man can be God, that Lucifer/Satan is evil, and that no image can be worshipped. But the terrorist part of Islam (just as even the moderate part of Islam; and just as even public Christianity) will eventually be wiped out during the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign, when everyone (not in hiding) will be forced to either convert to the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism or be killed (Revelation 13:4-18).

Also, even though Jews today don't go around killing people for religious reasons, by the time the Antichrist declares himself to be God, some ultra-Orthodox Jews, led by a miracle-working false Messiah, might also feel inspired to try to kill the Antichrist for utter blasphemy, especially when he will commit it in their own temple (2 Thessalonians 2:4), and will utterly defile their temple (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

Bible2 · Mar 2, 2012

franky67 said in post #37:

Blessed Hope we're looking for is not the anti-christ.

That's right.

The blessed hope (Titus 2:13) is the hope of eternal life: "In hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2), "that blessed hope" (Titus 2:13), "the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7), by which is meant the hope of obtaining an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at the second coming of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7-20:6). Also, Jesus himself is our hope (1 Timothy 1:1b), for he himself is eternal life (John 14:6), and only by believing in him can we have eternal life (John 3:36).

No Christians are looking for the Antichrist instead of Jesus, even though those Christians who (rightly) hold to the post-tribulation rapture view know that the Antichrist must come first (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4; cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13). For a Christian (whether male or female) who holds to the post-trib view is like a pregnant woman nearing the end of her term: she isn't looking for her birthing pains instead of the birth of her child, but she knows that birthing pains must come first (John 16:21-22, Isaiah 26:17-19, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23).

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franky67 said in post #37:

So comfort one another with these words, 1 Thess. 4:18

Note that the comfort in 1 Thessalonians 4:18 is the comfort that the dead in Christ aren't lost, but their souls will come back from heaven with Jesus at his second coming and their bodies will be resurrected at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, cf. 1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:4-6).

Similarly, the comfort in 1 Thessalonians 5:11 applies to those in Christ no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10-11).

Christians going through any tribulation are comforted by God, even while they're going through that tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:3-7, 1 Peter 4:12-13). So Christians will be comforted by God even as they go through the future tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4), waiting for the second coming of Jesus and the rapture, which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

Job should be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). Just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chapters 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10). And during the coming tribulation, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians in every nation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 20:4).

By the power of Satan working against him (Job 1:12), Job first suffered the loss of his wealth and his servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14-15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But Job remained patient through all his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).

Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was completed, giving him twice as much wealth as he had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3), and giving him the same number of children as he had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great grandchildren and great great grandchildren (Job 42:16b).

While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought that his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against Job, because Job was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the coming tribulation, the suffering of Christians won't be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:17, cf. Revelation 2:10).

God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job to prove that Job didn't love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all his wealth, family and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the coming tribulation: they will need to continue to love God even when God allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) to make war against Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7-10, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4).

Christians must so love God and so trust God that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus Christ himself in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43).

Christians must in no way love their mortal lives on this earth to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians must not love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their family members from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians must not love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24, 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus requires that Christians forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8, 2 Corinthians 5:15, 1 Corinthians 15:3).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

Bible2 · Mar 2, 2012

newcreature777 said in post #61:

Revelation 3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee (from, Greek, ek- out of) The (hour, Greek, hora- season) of (temptation, Greek, peirasmos- adversity or tribulation) which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The seven epistles to seven churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to seven literal first-century local church congregations in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b), just as Paul wrote epistles to seven different literal first-century local church congregations in seven places in the Roman Empire: Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colosse, and Thessalonica.

Revelation 3:10 meant that the literal first-century local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) would be kept safe from a persecution which would come upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman Emperor Domitian. For John saw his Revelation vision near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and according to many historians, Domitian heavily persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The literal first-century local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) had to suffer and die in that persecution over a period of ten days (Revelation 2:10).

The first-century church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (ek) that persecution, for, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (John 17:15,20). Also, the first-century church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself (or from the earth) in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, for example, a student in a classroom who has been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself (or from the classroom) in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can still be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him.

Also, the first-century persecution of Revelation 3:10 (and Revelation 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (Luke 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Revelation 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman Empire, as opposed to those Christians who had already died and gone to heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

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newcreature777 said in post #65:

Luke 12:36

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

Luke 12:36 is just a parable (note its use of "like"), and it's addressed to the same people (the church) that Luke 12:40 is addressed to. The actual wedding won't happen until Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7-21), after the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 is over.

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-trib rapture. Instead, the Bible makes clear that the rapture will be immediately after the tribulation. For Matthew 24:30-31 is referring to the same second coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which is referring to the same second coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Matthew 24:29 shows that these things won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18. That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' second coming and the resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7-20:6, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church and the Antichrist sits in a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place of a third Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' return, his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30) and then marry in the clouds the obedient portion of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, cf. Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" (Revelation 3:5), before they mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the unsaved armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the just-resurrected and married obedient portion of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9, 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient portion of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of partial preterism or full preterism or historicism or spiritualism) could leave some believers less prepared mentally to go through the coming tribulation.

The Bible gives us clear warning ahead of time about everything that we're going to have to face during the coming tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation 1:3, Revelation 22:16) of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18, so that we can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Mark 13:5-6,21-23, Luke 21:8, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that we can be better prepared mentally to endure the coming tribulation with patience and faith unto the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13), and not get so mad at God over our and our loved ones' awful physical suffering during the coming tribulation (cf. Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21) that we wrongly employ our free will to depart from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Timothy 4:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Luke 8:13, Matthew 24:9-13), to the ultimate loss of our salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Hebrews 10:38-39).

Bible2 · Mar 2, 2012

Isaiah5417amen said in post #70:

The day of the Lord- wrath occurs in the tribulation.

The day of the Lord/day of wrath (Zephaniah 1:14-15) won't begin until the second coming of Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19 (see Revelation 19:15b), immediately after the future tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18 (Matthew 24:29-30).

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Isaiah5417amen said in post #70:

The Bride Rapture in the open DOOR Revelation 4:1 Before the Tribulation..

Revelation 4:1 refers to only the apostle John, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the third heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the first century AD, just as 2 Corinthians 12:2 refers to only the apostle Paul, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the third heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the first century. Neither Revelation 4:1 nor Corinthians 12:2 is referring to the future rapture of the entire church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Revelation 4:1's "After this" simply means after John had been instructed in Revelation chapters 2-3 what to write to seven literal first-century local church congregations in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b).

No significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3, but not mentioned again until Revelation 22, just as no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Romans 16, but not mentioned in Romans chapters 1-15.

The reason the word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3 is because those chapters are referring to seven literal first-century local church congregations in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b).

The church (in the general sense) will definitely be in the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 (and Matthew 24), because believers will definitely be in the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 and Matthew 24 (e.g. Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Also, just as the mistaken pre-tribulation rapture view admits that Revelation 19 includes references to the church without using the specific word "church", so it should admit that Revelation chapters 6-18 can include references to the church without using the specific word "church".

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Isaiah5417amen said in post #70:

1 Thessalonians 5:9-11
For God hath not appointed us to wrath) but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

1 Thessalonians 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9b), and it applies to God's wrath no matter whether it's temporal or eternal (John 3:36, Revelation 14:10-11).

Note that nothing requires that the entire tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be God's wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will be alive on the earth during the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4). Most of the tribulation could be the wrath of Satan working through evil men and natural forces to bring disaster upon the earth, just like when Satan was allowed to work through evil men and natural forces to bring disaster upon righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The first five seals of the tribulation (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, because after the first four seals are over the martyrs of the fifth seal ask God when he's going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the fifth seal foretells will happen sometime after the fifth seal (Revelation 6:11b), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus unsealing the seals of the tribulation (Revelation 6) doesn't mean that the events that are unsealed will be God's wrath; it simply means that every event that's unsealed will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The sixth seal of the tribulation (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, cf. Revelation 6:12b), whereas the day of the Lord/day of wrath (Zephaniah 1:14-15) won't begin until the second coming of Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19 (see Revelation 19:15b), immediately after the tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18 (Matthew 24:29-30).

So the people quoted at the sixth seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the sixth seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. Just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their ways to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quotes in Revelation 6:17.

After the sixth seal of the tribulation will occur the seventh seal of the tribulation (Revelation 8:1). And out of the seventh seal of the tribulation will come the seven trumpets of the tribulation (Revelation 8:1-2). None of the events of the first six trumpets from Revelation 8 up to the end of Revelation 9 are referred to by John as being God's wrath. Also, it doesn't say that any of those events will be directed only at the unsaved; all those events could affect mankind in general, both the saved and the unsaved.

The events of the fifth trumpet will be the work of a swarm of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the events of the sixth trumpet will be the work of a huge army of weird horse-like beings led by four fallen angels previously bound at the river Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the six trumpets of Revelation chapters 8-9, this could simply be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy one-third of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause one-third of the angels to be cast down to the earth for good (Revelation 12:4,9).

God allows saved people to be affected by the wrath of Satan (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10), knowing that even if they're killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but even gain (Philippians 1:21,23, 2 Corinthians 5:8).

The events of the first six trumpets from Revelation 8 up to the end of Revelation 9 will all happen before the start of the 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian (Satanic) reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-18). And the events of Revelation chapters 8-9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what Satan could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then he could claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make mankind suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind. In this way, Satan could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the seven plagues of the seven vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly temple opening of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5-16:1). The seven vials of God's wrath will then be poured out upon the followers of the Antichrist as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7) during the prior 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5,7,10, Revelation 14:12-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation on the earth just for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22) and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). People in the church will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4, 2 Timothy 4:2-4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). People in the church will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15b, Revelation 20:4).

And all of this, of course, will be the wrath of Satan against the church (Revelation 12:17), not the wrath of God against the church. For the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath does come subsequently in the seven vials (Revelation 16), the final stage of the tribulation, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath none of the vials of God's wrath will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth during that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7).

Only after the seventh vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2) will Jesus Christ return and bring the second-coming day of wrath/day of the Lord (Zephaniah 1:14-15, 1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10) upon the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). And before that wrath begins, again because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30) and then marry the obedient portion of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, cf. Matthew 25:1-13) in the clouds, before the obedient portion of the church mounts white horses and comes back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he brings the second-coming wrath of God upon the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21).

After that, Jesus and the obedient portion of the just-resurrected church (including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist) will be on the earth ruling the surviving unsaved nations with a rod of iron for 1,000 years (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2). During that time, Jesus will have to employ his wrath against the surviving unsaved nations in order to bring them into forced submission to him (Zechariah 14:16-19, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2).

After the 1,000 years are over, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-9, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), but it will be defeated by God's wrath against it (Ezekiel 38:19-23, Revelation 20:9b). After the defeat of the Gog/Magog rebellion, the earth will remain in existence for at least seven more years (Ezekiel 39:9b). After those at least seven more years are over, the white throne judgment will occur, in which all the unsaved of all times will be resurrected and judged and cast into God's eternal wrath of the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:11-15, Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

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