Rcc

[ttreg]

i have a question:how did the RCC (Roman Catholic Church) begin?

 

[Philip]

There are two claims with historical support. The first is that it was founded by Christ. The second is that it changed its faith over several hundred years, culminating in Rome's separation from the rest of the Church in AD 1054. I favor the latter view.

 

[PaladinValer]

I second Philip

 

[davidoffinland]

From Finland.

I third!! It must be remembered that in the early 2nd Ct, Rome kicked all the Jewish authorites out of Jerusalem, including the Jewish Christians. The Church at this time had a Jewish leader and he was replaced by a gentile bishop. (lost the notes for this) So no Jew was to remain in Jerusalem regardless what the Rome Church says about their roots
.
Shalom, david

 

[winsome]

Well I disagree - no surprise there. But if you want to get an RC view on this you really need to ask in OBOB - I'm no expert on Church history Probably don't get many Catholics in this section. I think this is only the second time I've wandered into this forum.

However I do know enough to say that Philip's first supposition is correct and the second, whilst it may be argued by some, is just not valid history.

 

[PaladinValer]

Actually, the second view is historically valid.

And I am a historian

 

[winsome]

Actually, the second view is historically valid.

And I am a historian

A historian! And got it so wrong?

Must have been reading the wrong history books

 

[Rick Otto]

Everyone claims Christ, but you have to read the books & not judge them by how they cover themselves.

I don't buy the explanations of the papacy of Peter, and 1054 sounds about 600 years too late.

I would date the "birth" of the RCC to Constantine's claim of conversion after having had his politicaly & tacticaly expedient "dream-vision" of victory under the sign of a burning cross. The elevation of the bishop of Rome over the bishop of Jerusalem became an inevitable consequence.
His legalizing the faith put the woman in scarlet on the back of the beast, in my humble opinion.
I wouldn't condemn anyone for being Catholic, tho.

 

[Trento]

Actually, the second view is historically valid.

And I am a historian

Phillip Schaff is a respected professional church history scholar who does not accept the Papacy, He is more truthful in his History.



As for the primacy given to Rome, Philip Schaff states in History of the Christian Church, volume 2 (Eerdmans, 1910)

"Rome was the battle-field of orthodoxy and heresy, and a resort of all sects and parties. It attracted from every direction what was true and false in philosophy and religion. Ignatius rejoiced in the prospect of suffering for Christ in the centre of the world; Polycarp repaired hither to settle with Anicetus the paschal controversy; Justin Martyr presented there his defense of Christianity to the emperors, and laid down for it his life; Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Cyprian conceded to that church a position of singular pre-eminence. Rome was equally sought as a commanding position by heretics and theosophic jugglers, as Simon Magus, Valentine, Marcion, Cerdo, and a host of others. No wonder, then, that the bishops of Rome at an early date were looked upon as metropolitan pastors, and spoke and acted accordingly with an air of authority which reached far beyond their immediate diocese." (Schaff, page 157)


​

 

[PaladinValer]

Primary in what sense?

First Among Equals? Yes

Papacy? No

Sorry, but papacy isn't ancient. In fact, the ancient usage of the word "pope" in the Church was a special designation used by a head of any very important diocese or any of the Patriarchs.

 

[prodromos]

His legalizing the faith put the woman in scarlet on the back of the beast, in my humble opinion.

So you'd much rather the good ol' days where Christians were hunted down, put in jail, fed to the lions etc?

You can make it happen! There are ministry positions available in Turkey and Saudi Arabia today

 

[winsome]

Just been reading a brief account of the great schism and events that led to it in Philip Hughes A Short History of the Catholic Church.

Not very edifying for either side, especially the Ignatius & Photius saga around 861 - 869, and the final split in 1054.

These Christians how they love one another!

 

[prodromos]

These Christians how they love one another!

Ignatius & Photius were reconciled with each other.

 

[Philip]

It must be remembered that in the early 2nd Ct, Rome kicked all the Jewish authorites out of Jerusalem, including the Jewish Christians. The Church at this time had a Jewish leader and he was replaced by a gentile bishop. (lost the notes for this)

St Mark succeeded St Simeon after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 135 during the Bar Kokhba Revolt.

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

i have a question:how did the RCC (Roman Catholic Church) begin?

God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ to redeem it. The way Jesus chose to do this was to found the Church. That Church is the Catholic Church.

BTW, RCC or Roman Catholic Church is used incorrectly here. When referring to the entire Catholic Church the correct term is exactly that "The Catholic Church." There are actually 23 Churches sui iuris that, together, constitute the Catholic Church.

Here's a little tutorial:

The term Roman Catholic is actually incorrect when referring to the entire Catholic Church in communion with the See of St. Peter. The term ‘Roman’ Catholic is a relatively modern term, and one, moreover, that is confined largely to the English language. In the First Vatican Council in 1870, in fact, the term Roman Catholic was nowhere included in any of the Council's official documents about the Church herself, and the term was not included.
Similarly, nowhere in the 16 documents of the Second Vatican Council will you find the term Roman Catholic. Pope Paul VI signed all the documents of the Second Vatican Council as "I, Paul. Bishop of the Catholic Church." Simply that -- Catholic Church. There are references the Roman rite, etc., but when the adjective Roman is used, it refers to the Diocese of Rome!

Although the Diocese of Rome is central to the Catholic Church, this does not mean that the Roman rite, or, as is sometimes said, the Latin rite, is all that there is to the Catholic Church. The Roman Rite is not co-terminus with the Church as a whole; that would mean neglecting the Byzantine, Chaldean, Maronite or other Oriental rites which are all very much part of the Catholic Church with whom the Holy See of St. Peter is in Communion.
There are a number of Churches sui iuris that, together, constitute the Catholic Church –There are Western, Eastern and Oriental Churches. The term sui iuris means, literally, "of their own law", or self-governing.


Here, then, is a break-out most frequently referenced members of The Catholic Church:

• Alexandrean
  • Coptic Tradition
    • • Coptic Catholic Church
  • Ge'ez Tradition
    • • EthiopianCatholic Church
        • Includes the Eritrean Catholic Church
• Antiochene
  • East Syrian Tradition
    • • Syro-Malabarese Catholic Church
        • • Knanaya Usage
  • West Syrian Tradition
    • • Syriac Catholic Church
      • Syro-Malankarese Catholic Church
        • • Knanaya Usage (informal)
• Armenian
  • • • Armenian Catholic Church
• Byzantine
  • Byzantine-Greek Tradition
    • Greek Rescension
      • Albanian Catholic Church
      • Greek Catholic Church
    • Grieco-Arabic Rescension
      • Melkite Catholic Church
    • Grieco-Georgian Rescension
      • Georgian Catholic Church
    • Grieco-Italian Rescension
      • Italo-Grieco-Albanian Catholic Church
        • Italo-Albanian Catholic Church - Eparchy of Lungro degli Italo-Albanesi in Calabria
        • Italo-Albanian Catholic Church - Eparchy of Piana in Sicily degli Albanisi
        • Italo-Greek Catholic Church - Exarchic Abbey & Territorial Monastery of Santa Maria di Grottaferrata degli Italo-Grieco
  • Byzantine-Slav Tradition
    • Great Russian Rescension
      • Belarusan Catholic Church
      • Bulgarian Catholic Church
      • Russian Catholic Church
        • Russian Catholic Church - Apostolic Exarchate of Moscow of the Russians
          • Old Ritualist Usage
        • Russian Catholic Church - Apostolic Exarchate of Harbin of the Russians
    • Romanian Rescension
      • Romanian Catholic Church
        • All jurisdictions except Eparchy of Maramures of the Romanians
    • Ruthenian Rescension
      • Croatian Catholic Church
        • Includes the Apostolic Exarchate of Serbia & Montenegro for Faithful of the Eastern Rite
      • Hungarian Catholic Church
      • Romanian Catholic Church
        • Eparchy of Maramures of the Romanians only
      • Ruthenian Catholic Church
        • Ruthenian Catholic Church - Metropolitan Archeparchy of Pittsburgh of the Ruthenians
        • Ruthenian Catholic Church - Eparchy of Mukachevo of the Ruthenians
      • Slovakian Catholic Church
        • Includes Apostolic Exarchate of the Czech Republic for Czech Faithful of the Eastern Rites
      • Ukrainian Catholic Church
• Chaldean
  • • • Chaldean Catholic Church
        • • Arabic Usage
• Maronite
  • • • Maronite Catholic Church

• Latin (Roman)
  • • • Roman (Latin) Catholic Church
        • Archdiocese of Milan
          • Ambrosian Rite
        • Archdiocese of Braga
          • Bragan Rite
        • Archdiocese of Toledo
          • Mozarabic Rite
        • Monastic Usages*
        • United States of America
          • Anglican Use

There are literally tens of millions of these Catholics who are all in communion with the Holy See of St. Peter that are not "Roman" Catholic. So, you see that the Catholic Church is comprised of much more than the Roman Catholics.


Grace and peace

Your brother in Christ

 

[PaulAckermann]

The problem with the date of 1054 is that all the doctrines taught by the Catholic Church (papal infallity, the Eucharist, apostolic succession, purgatory, praying to the saints, veneration of Mary, justification by faith and works, etc) existed before 1054. So obviously the Catholic Church existed before 1054.

The problem with the time of Constantine is that all the doctrines taught by the Catholic Church existed before Constantine. So obviously the Catholic Church existed before Constantine.

Protestant John Henry Newman researched how far back the Catholic doctrines went. He looked in one century and saw them there. He decided to look in the previous century.They were there, too. He kept on going back, and back. He found all the Catholic doctrines in the Early Church Fathers, some of whom are direct disciples of the apostles themselves. It is highly unlikely that these disciple parted so quickly from the apostle to teach "Roman" error. Newmam then joined the Catholic Church.

I encourage all to read the Early Church Fathers. I was shocked how Catholic they all sounded. In fact, I could not find one Early Church Father that sounded at all like a Protestant. This is what converted me back to the Catholic Church, after once being a Baptist minister. You can find their writings on both Catholic and Protestant websites.

 

[freespiritchurch]

I encourage all to read the Early Church Fathers. I was shocked how Catholic they all sounded. In fact, I could not find one Early Church Father that sounded at all like a Protestant. This is what converted me back to the Catholic Church, after once being a Baptist minister. You can find their writings on both Catholic and Protestant websites.

With all due respect, I had exactly the opposite experience: after reading the Church Fathers in a Catholic seminary, I was unable to reconcile what I was reading with the idea that the churches in communion with Rome had maintained the teaching of the apostolic church. Ultimately, the study of the early fathers doesn't prove that any one church is right.

 

[prodromos]

With all due respect, I had exactly the opposite experience: after reading the Church Fathers in a Catholic seminary, I was unable to reconcile what I was reading with the idea that the churches in communion with Rome had maintained the teaching of the apostolic church.

Welcome to Orthodoxy

John

 

[prodromos]

The problem with the date of 1054 is that all the doctrines taught by the Catholic Church (papal infallity, the Eucharist, apostolic succession, purgatory, praying to the saints, veneration of Mary, justification by faith and works, etc) existed before 1054. So obviously the Catholic Church existed before 1054.

The problem with the time of Constantine is that all the doctrines taught by the Catholic Church existed before Constantine. So obviously the Catholic Church existed before Constantine.

Can you show where the church prior to Constantine taught papal infallibility and purgatory, not to mention "etc" which presumeably contains such doctrines as the immaculate conception of Mary and that submission to the Pope is necessary for salvation.

John

 

[freespiritchurch]

Welcome to Orthodoxy

John

You'll note that I'm not Orthodox either. I have great respect for Orthodoxy (and, in fact, for Catholicism). But I don't think that the Orthodox bishops are heirs to the apostles any more than Catholic (any other) ones.