Rapture

[Harlan Norris]

Nearly every teaching that I hear or read says the rapture will occour before the tribulation. I can't find any concrete scripture to back this claim. I can find scripture to the contrary. Revelation,6:9-11. Also revelation 7:9-14. Any thoughts?

 

[jbarcher]

Well, a general thought, but not terribly specific.

I think there's a very powerful a priori case against futurism in the time orientation of the ancients, which was present-oriented. This is reflected in Jesus' saying not to worry about tomorrow, as today has enough troubles of its own.

 

[johnd]

Nearly every teaching that I hear or read says the rapture will occour before the tribulation. I can't find any concrete scripture to back this claim. I can find scripture to the contrary. Revelation,6:9-11. Also revelation 7:9-14. Any thoughts?

Isaiah 26:19 But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. 20 Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.

Revelation 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

What is generally misunderstood about the 70th Week of Daniel is that it is not one seven year tribulation but two three and a half yeat tribulations. The first is the believer's tribulation spoken of in the verses you mentioned and several others (including Revelation 12:17 and Revelation 13:5-10 and the mark of the beast without which no man can buy or sell is itself a tracking device to weed out the one people who refuse to take it: Christians). This is while the antichrist is setting up his kingdom. Then comes the rapture of the Church which will be so far underground in that time that their sudden disappearance will scarce be even noticed.

Then the beast reneges on his covanant and the Great Tribulation begins until Christ returns.

 

[Harlan Norris]

This seems more likely. However, There are still going to be those that come to Christ, afterward. They will see the plagues. Locusts, ect. Who are these? How were they converted?

 

[johnd]

This seems more likely. However, There are still going to be those that come to Christ, afterward. They will see the plagues. Locusts, ect. Who are these? How were they converted?

This is not the traditional mid trib rapture eschatology. It also presumes the tribulation is 7 years and that the Church is raptured out in the middle of the Great Tribulation. What I spoke of does not.

In answer to your question, what biblical evidence do you have to support the claim that some will be saved after ward? I am open to texts I may well have over looked. But from what I gather from the texts of the Bible I have studied, that the very Spirit of God is removed (2 Thessalonians 2:7) from the witnessing of Christ to the world (John 16:13, 1 John 2:20). Without which we would not have the calling / leading to faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9). And Revelation says that even though the plagues are leveled against humanity they still curse God (Revelation 16:9,11,&21). Not much of an indication of repentance or faith unto eternal life in Christ.

Some say the Jews cornered in Armageddon will cry out to Jesus. Unless I missed something in the Bible, it appears that will not happen. Jesus will come when they are nearly annihilated in Armageddon and will defend them. Then they will see him whom they have pierced and believe (Zechariah 12:10).

Ezekiel 36:22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone.

God said there would be a remnant in Israel. His word is his bond.

And so all Israel (those who survived to that point) will be saved (Romans 11:26).

Similar prophecies are found in Genesis when Joseph revealed himself to his brothers and in John 4 when the towns folk believed not for what they heard from the woman but from what they saw with their own eyes.

Regards,

 

[Harlan Norris]

Rev.16:2 And the first went and poured his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and greivous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them that worshipped his image. To me this indicates that there are men at this time that are not afflicted, that do not worship the image, or have the mark. Also Rev.9:4, And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men that have not the seal of God in their foreheads. This clearly states that some will not be followers of the beast.

 

[holdon]

Nearly every teaching that I hear or read says the rapture will occour before the tribulation. I can't find any concrete scripture to back this claim. I can find scripture to the contrary. Revelation,6:9-11. Also revelation 7:9-14. Any thoughts?

I honestly don't see why the verses in Revelation that you cited, would deny a rapture before the tribulation. What are your reasons?
The fact that there are still believers found on earth after the rapture, like those verses in Revelation, does not mean that rapture couldn't have happened. These are simply new believers.
We see the raptured believers in heaven, represented by the 24 elders as of Rev 4.

 

[Harlan Norris]

I suppose you are right. Never the less, it seems likely to me, that we will have to endure it all. Natureally, I'd rather not. Let me put it this way. When I ride my bike, and come to a hill. I mentally prepare for the extra effort the climb will take. I focus on the goal. I don't do a lot of looking around. If that hill turned out to be 7 times longer than I thought, I might not make it. I think most people are that way. I'm prepareing for a very long hill. If it's shorter, I should manage it nicely.

 

[holdon]

I suppose you are right. Never the less, it seems likely to me, that we will have to endure it all. Natureally, I'd rather not. Let me put it this way. When I ride my bike, and come to a hill. I mentally prepare for the extra effort the climb will take. I focus on the goal. I don't do a lot of looking around. If that hill turned out to be 7 times longer than I thought, I might not make it. I think most people are that way. I'm prepareing for a very long hill. If it's shorter, I should manage it nicely.

Yes be of good courage: "In the world ye have tribulation; but be of good courage: I have overcome the world." And all who want to live a godly life will have persecution.
But none of that is the Great Tribulation such as there has never been and never will be again.

 

[dcyates]

Well, a general thought, but not terribly specific.

I think there's a very powerful a priori case against futurism in the time orientation of the ancients, which was present-oriented. This is reflected in Jesus' saying not to worry about tomorrow, as today has enough troubles of its own.

It's too bad your insight here appears to have been largely ignored, jbarcher, because I think you posit a very important point regarding this exceedingly misunderstood subject. This is predominantly due to a failure to take into proper account the socio-cultural and historical context in which the NT is written, just as you've pointed out. Another consequent misconception has to do with our latter-day preoccupation with our ostensible eternity spent in heaven, when the emphasis of Scripture is rather on the restoration of Israel--here on earth--and the renewal of creation. (Why else would there be a general bodily resurrection and the re-creation of earth?) This is seen, not only in Jesus' instruction that we are to pray God's will be done here on earth just as it is already accomplished in heaven, but also in Rev. 21, where we are told of the New Jerusalem descending from heaven to earth. In other words, in the end God will literally establish heaven on earth.
In all probability, the whole concept of 'the rapture', or of being taken up or away, in the NT has to do more with something along the lines of believers being taken away by Roman soldiers than with Christians being taken up into the wild blue yonder for a chat with Christ.

 

[Harlan Norris]

dcyates, I haven't ignored his post. I'm well aware that the affairs of the world are the will of God. It's the issue of the Rapture that I'm concerned with. I have a similar view to yours, in that, instead of rapture, we'll be hauled away by Roman soldiers. That is how the church will disappear. Endure till the end.

 

[holdon]

In all probability, the whole concept of 'the rapture', or of being taken up or away, in the NT has to do more with something along the lines of believers being taken away by Roman soldiers than with Christians being taken up into the wild blue yonder for a chat with Christ.

Amazing what you think the rapture is. Nothing to do with Roman soldiers. Paul wrote to the Thessalonians about the rapture:
1 Thess 4:16 for the Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel's voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 4:17 then *we*, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall be always with the Lord. 4:18 So encourage one another with these words.) Note: the "shall be caught up" is the wording for rapture.

 

[Harlan Norris]

I cerainly hope you are right. No one knows when Christ will return. We are instructed to be watching, at all times. At the last trump. That indicates that six other trumpets have already blown. The seventh and last trump will blow just before the last battle, when Jesus treads the winepress, and time ends. We will be spared this only. The Christians who are taken in the rapture that occours at that time, will have gone through the tribulation. All the other apostles were martyred. John excepted. Jesus also. They are our examples. It seems likely that when the church disappears it will be due to civil disobedience. Lets say that the president decrees that we must for reasons of national security, have a chip implanted, for i.d. Many, and I pray that I will be among them, will refuse. At some point there will have to be something done about us. Something a lot like what was done with the Jews in Germany. No one will stand in the way. They will not wish to share our fate. Same as the last time. Others may make it into hiding, and be safe. These along with the captives not yet executed, will go in the rapture, at the last trump. Thats how it looks to me.

 

[holdon]

I cerainly hope you are right. No one knows when Christ will return. We are instructed to be watching, at all times. At the last trump. That indicates that six other trumpets have already blown. The seventh and last trump will blow just before the last battle, when Jesus treads the winepress, and time ends. We will be spared this only.

The last trump of 1 Cor 15 is not the seventh trump of Revelation. The last trump in 1 Cor 15 is a military term for marching orders. The seventh trump is never called the "last trump". A trump is simply a means of announcement.

The Christians who are taken in the rapture that occours at that time, will have gone through the tribulation. All the other apostles were martyred. John excepted. Jesus also. They are our examples.

Yes, persecution and tribulation is the part of the Christian in this world. But you said: "the" tribulation. That is a different thing, called "the great tribulation" such as there never was and never will be after that: Quite a unique event, also called the hour of trial.

It seems likely that when the church disappears it will be due to civil disobedience.

?? Where did you get that? When the Church disappears it will be because He calls her home before the hour of trial starts.

Lets say that the president decrees that we must for reasons of national security, have a chip implanted, for i.d. Many, and I pray that I will be among them, will refuse. At some point there will have to be something done about us. Something a lot like what was done with the Jews in Germany. No one will stand in the way. They will not wish to share our fate. Same as the last time. Others may make it into hiding, and be safe. These along with the captives not yet executed, will go in the rapture, at the last trump. Thats how it looks to me.

The Lord Himself with and assembling shout (military term) will come and get us. We will meet the Lord in the air and so will be forever with the Lord. Encourage one another with these words.
Not with words that we have to go through the great tribulation.

 

[Harlan Norris]

If called upon to have a chip placed in your hand, what will you do? Will you say, this can't be the mark, because i'm still here? God knows how we love our lives, and the things we have. There will be a moment of decision. In that moment we will either choose God or the world. Those who choose the world will be among friends. No one on the outside of the fence will openly question their decision. Those on the inside though, have followed their faith.

 

[holdon]

If called upon to have a chip placed in your hand, what will you do? Will you say, this can't be the mark, because i'm still here? God knows how we love our lives, and the things we have. There will be a moment of decision. In that moment we will either choose God or the world. Those who choose the world will be among friends. No one on the outside of the fence will openly question their decision. Those on the inside though, have followed their faith.

It is not a moment to come. The decision to obey God in everything comes to us everyday. This has nothing to do with pre-trib rapture or not.
All Christians agree that we will have tribulation in this world.

The question is whether we will be raptured before the Great and unequalled Tribulation:
"for then shall there be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be;"I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

[Andrea77]

Nearly every teaching that I hear or read says the rapture will occour before the tribulation. I can't find any concrete scripture to back this claim. I can find scripture to the contrary. Revelation,6:9-11. Also revelation 7:9-14. Any thoughts?

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. (Rev 3:10)

After Rev. 4:1, we read no more of the church. God said to John, come up here, which symbolizes the rapture and the end of the Church age, which means Christians are not going through the tribulation. That verse reads:

After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." (Rev 4:1)


Notice that Jesus will come when we do not expect him, Mat. 24:44. If He was coming at some time other than pre-trib, we would know when He was coming. Hence, the rapture can happen at any moment and must be pre-trib.


In Luke 21:36, Jesus taught:

Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.

This looks to me as if we can escape the horrible things that are to happen in the tribulation.


The church will be taken away before the Antichrist is revealed:

For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. (2 Thess. 2:7,8)

 

[Bornagain15]

Nearly every teaching that I hear or read says the rapture will occour before the tribulation. I can't find any concrete scripture to back this claim. I can find scripture to the contrary. Revelation,6:9-11. Also revelation 7:9-14. Any thoughts?

One thing is that the church is not mentioned from Revelation 4 onward.

The martyrs in Rev.6:9-11 and the believers in Rev.7:9-14 are tribulation saints, people who accepted Christ AFTER the Rapture.

 

[Harlan Norris]

Matt;24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of olives, the deciples came to him privatly, saying, tell us , when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy comming, and of the end of the world?24:4, And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 24:5, For many shall come in my name, and saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 24:6, And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that you be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.24:7, For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilances, and earthquakes, in diverse places. 24:8,All these are the beginning of sorrows. 24:9 Then SHALL THEY DELIVER YOU UP TO BE AFFLICTED, AND SHALL KILL YOU: AND YOU SHALL BE HATED OF ALL NATIONS FOR MY NAMES SAKE.24:10, And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 24:11,And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 24:12, And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.24:13, BUT HE THAT SHALL ENDURE UNTIL THE END, THE SAME SHALL BE SAVED....words of Jesus. My heartfelt advice is do not miss the seriousness of a chip implant. If this comes around, DO NOT TAKE IT. These devices are a phisical reality, right now! There are already people that have them! Even if your pastor says it's alright. Don't take it!

 

[SH89]

My heartfelt advice is do not miss the seriousness of a chip implant. If this comes around, DO NOT TAKE IT. These devices are a phisical reality, right now! There are already people that have them! Even if your pastor says it's alright. Don't take it!

I dont have to worry. I have these verses:
Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.luke 21:36



and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. (1 thess 1:10)


Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.(revelation 3:10)

Throughout the tribulation, saints are being killed on a massive scale. Revelation 3:10 would be meaningless if the rapture was after the beginning
of the tribulation.