Rapture? Tribulation? or not?

[FaithAlone]

I grew up in the Church of Christ but am now a non-denominational Christian. I attend a Baptist church at the moment but would not consider myself strictly Baptist even though I don't disagree with the important aspects of their doctrine. Even though I grew up CoC I never really understood what their view on the end times and Revelation was. I would love to hear it because I am not really sure what I believe. Anyone CoC or not who wants to give their opinion based on scripture can and I would appreciate it. Thanks.

 

[Providence Chapel]

The rapture theory comes from these verses:

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

we know that it will be before the tribulation because in the tribulation God shall pour out his wrath on an unrepentant world. But the church has the promise of God:

1 Thessalonians 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[Bible2]

"After that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

-- Mark 13:24-27

"We beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming"

-- 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8

"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."

-- Revelation 13:10

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."

-- Revelation 14:12-13

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy."

-- 1 Peter 4:12-13

 

[SoulFly51]

Here is my summary of the end times.

There will be a war. God wins. The End.

 

[StevenL]

Here's some of my thoughts on the matter, if it really matters:

There will be no "7 year tribulation period."
There will be no "rapture" 7 years before Yeshua comes to earth.
There will be no "temple of God" built in Jerusalem.
No one will be "saved" after the catching away of the holy people.
No man called the "antichrist" will make a 7 year agreement with the Jews for peace.
A "beast" will not offer a pig or any other sacrifice in a newly built "temple of God."

In other words, I believe the current "left behind", pre-trib rapture doctrine is an unscriptural fable. I'm sure it's made lot's of nice money for its perpetrators though, so I guess it's ok. If something is popular and well accepted among church people, it has to be all right, doesn't it?

 

[Dr. E W Bullinger]

Here's some of my thoughts on the matter, if it really matters:

There will be no "7 year tribulation period."
There will be no "rapture" 7 years before Yeshua comes to earth.
There will be no "temple of God" built in Jerusalem.
No one will be "saved" after the catching away of the holy people.
No man called the "antichrist" will make a 7 year agreement with the Jews for peace.
A "beast" will not offer a pig or any other sacrifice in a newly built "temple of God."

In other words, I believe the current "left behind", pre-trib rapture doctrine is an unscriptural fable. I'm sure it's made lot's of nice money for its perpetrators though, so I guess it's ok. If something is popular and well accepted among church people, it has to be all right, doesn't it?

Well I disagree

 

[muffler dragon]

I'm agnostic when it comes to eschatology.

 

[FaithAlone]

That's fine for you guys to say that about Revelation, but where do you get your ideas from? I've heard a little bit about people thinking much of Revelation has already happened but I don't really understand it. From the couple of times that I've read it it does seem like things still to come. I just would like some back up for your ideas.

 

[JVD]

I have been brought up to believe in the 7 year tribulation and pre-trib rapture. I went to Bible College that taught that. I have been in churches ever since that believe that. I have looked at the scriptures esp in 1 Thes and Rev. and they do seem to teach something like that.

However, it is really not all that cut and dried. You have to piece little pieces together from all over the Bible to come up the the organized theory presented by Jack Van Impe and the Left Behind series. If something doesn't quite seem to fit you need to change the interpretation a little to fit the piece into the whole theory. In my opinion the system is like a house of cards that could fall down with one little puff from God.

Remember how the Jews had such a system of the coming Messiah that they did not recognize him when he actually came? He didn't fit their organization of scripture.

So I have become a pan-millenialist. I'm going to wait and see how it all pans out.

I do think it is important to study and try to understand those scriptures.

 

[ILTDude]

I believe there will be a rapture, but it will be totally different than what is depicted int he Left Behind series and different than most people anticipate it to be.

 

[9-iron]

I believe the current "left behind", pre-trib rapture doctrine is an unscriptural fable.

Way to easy to point to fallacies the 'left behind' series has. Not going to start a 25 page thread to defend my position, but let's say I don't believe in the rapture the way is has been portrayed commercially.



MD,

that is pretty funny!!!!

 

[muffler dragon]

MD,

that is pretty funny!!!!

Glad you enjoyed it.

 

[Highland Watchman]

I have been brought up to believe in the 7 year tribulation and pre-trib rapture. I went to Bible College that taught that. I have been in churches ever since that believe that. I have looked at the scriptures esp in 1 Thes and Rev. and they do seem to teach something like that.

However, it is really not all that cut and dried. You have to piece little pieces together from all over the Bible to come up the the organized theory presented by Jack Van Impe and the Left Behind series. If something doesn't quite seem to fit you need to change the interpretation a little to fit the piece into the whole theory. In my opinion the system is like a house of cards that could fall down with one little puff from God.

Remember how the Jews had such a system of the coming Messiah that they did not recognize him when he actually came? He didn't fit their organization of scripture.

So I have become a pan-millenialist. I'm going to wait and see how it all pans out.

I do think it is important to study and try to understand those scriptures.

Good on ya. I'd fall into the category of Pan-Millenialist myself. The way I see it, it will pan out how God decides it will pan out, not how we humans plan it to happen.

I find myself at a loss with seeing the separation of the "rapture" and the return of Christ, personally. Especially when looking at Scripture. Just too many holes in the arguments of so many "prophecy experts" and "prophecy gurus" out there, like Hal Lindsay, Jack van Impe, Grant R. Jeffries, and Tim LaHaye. They have some entertaining ideas, definitely. And if God does happen to act in the way that they claim He will act, then so be it. If not... well, let's just not put all of our hope and faith in the escape hatch plan, but put it where it truly belongs... in living for Christ every day of our lives, so then when the end does happen, we will be on the winning side, and we will not be turned away and told "I never knew you."...

As for Revelation, I could be wrong in this, but I would assume that it is really addressing much more than simply a rather twisted timeline of the end times. We could say that certain aspects are to be taken literally in this timeline, but who are we to be the ones to decide what is literal and what is allegorical? I know of zoos the world over who would love to get their hands on the two beasts of Revelation... What if, on the other hand, there were so much more to this book than that? Otherwise, what would be the point of God choosing it to close off the canon? Just some thoughts...

 

[WashedClean]

The rapture theory comes from these verses:

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

we know that it will be before the tribulation because in the tribulation God shall pour out his wrath on an unrepentant world. But the church has the promise of God:

1 Thessalonians 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

I'm with you on the first verse(s), but I always interpreted 1 Thessalonians 5 as God's generic wrath, not the wrath He will exhibit at the end of the world as we know it. I certainly could be wrong though!

 

[Telrunya]

I lean towards the pre wrath rapture veiw myself.

 

[Suffolk Sean]

Well I disagree

I would say so with that handle.....

 

[brother daniel]

What does Jesus say about his coming again, when the dead in Christ rise first and then, we who happen to be living when that happens are changed in the twinkle of an eye.? It is after a time of great tribulation. Beleave him. There is nothing to debate about.
We have entered into such a time of tribulation and it will only get worse until he comes.

 

[Suffolk Sean]

What does Jesus say about his coming again, when the dead in Christ rise first and then, we who happen to be living when that happens are changed in the twinkle of an eye.? It is after a time of great tribulation. Beleave him. There is nothing to debate about.
We have entered into such a time of tribulation and it will only get worse until he comes.

Jesus never said that, Paul did. And it never says anything about a tribulation at that point.

 

[Sketcher]

1 Thessalonians 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

That just means we won't go to hell.

I lean towards a post-trib or mid-trib rapture. When I read Revelation, it talks about the beast persecuting the church, THEN God pouring out His wrath on sinners, THEN Christ returning.

 

[brother daniel]

You are correct and I am glad to be reminded . However I should have said The Holy Ghost said, because in the Scripture, which is a sure word of prophesy, we find that all scripture is writen by insperation of the Holy Ghost and is profitable for doctrine, reprof and instruction that the man of God may be made perfect lacking in nothing.
And as I understand it, the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Jesus Christ. So I am not far off when I say Jesus said it. After all he is the Word of God.
And in case you havent noticed many more people are suffering and dying in cruel ways each year than any time we know of in world history.
The wise thing for you and I to do is, sell what we have , give to the poor and follow Jesus. Tribulation has come and it wont go away until Jesus returns in person as he fortold.