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You seem to be suggesting Doctors and Lawyers have more opportunity than maids. Yeah they may have the opportunity to make more money, but money does not define opportunity so it all depends on how opportunity is defined which could vary from person to person. That’s why when people speak of equal opportunity, they usually mean equal opportunity under the law.Or, a more plain way of putting it.
If Group A has 10 people: 2 lawyers, 2 doctors, 2 accountants, 2 computer programmers, and 2 maids
If Group B has 10 people: 0 lawyers, 1 doctor, 1 accountant, 1 computer programmer, and 7 maids
It's disingenuous to say "See there's equality of opportunity, because the 7 maids from Group B made the same as the 2 maids from Group A"
That's a bit of a word game or "selective statistics"
Saying "a black woman who came from a 50k household does just as a well as a white woman who came from a 50k household" ignores the fact that fewer black women come from >=50k households than white women.
Or, a more plain way of putting it.
If Group A has 10 people: 2 lawyers, 2 doctors, 2 accountants, 2 computer programmers, and 2 maids
If Group B has 10 people: 0 lawyers, 1 doctor, 1 accountant, 1 computer programmer, and 7 maids
It's disingenuous to say "See there's equality of opportunity, because the 7 maids from Group B made the same as the 2 maids from Group A"
What are you going to do? Force people to choose the career opportunities that you think they should pursue?
Excuse me sir, I know you're a mechanic but here's a law degree....we need more lawyers.
You seem to be suggesting Doctors and Lawyers have more opportunity than maids. Yeah they may have the opportunity to make more money, but money does not define opportunity so it all depends on how opportunity is defined which could vary from person to person. That’s why when people speak of equal opportunity, they usually mean equal opportunity under the law.
Oh ok...
All this time I thought your concern was that "being black" was causing this imaginary discrimination against them that was impeding their success.
Apparently what you're hoping for is some kind of communist utopia where everyone makes the same money.
You realize that no economist or sociologist ever said that you should expect a barber to make the same amount as a dr, right?
Actually, what I'm suggesting is, that kids born into families that have more money, have more opportunity to pursue the vocation and academic endeavors of their choosing vs. kids who aren't so lucky.
Money does define opportunity for the next generation...which is why we see the economic mobility trends that we see in our country (where over 80% of people end up in the same economic situation as their parents).
If you have a net worth of $0-20k, and I have a net worth of $700k, statistically speaking, my kids are going to end up with a better career and income than yours in 8/10 cases.
Obviously that means that 2/10 are able to overcome that and make up for lost ground...which is why after a certain number of generations, previously oppressed groups do catch up to the median. However, there are policies and actions that can be taken to speed up that process to help facilitate the end goal of all kids being able to pursue their career of choice based on their merit as opposed to how much money their parents have.
I think you may be misreading my posts here if your takeaway is that I'm suggesting that a barber should make the same as a doctor.
What I'm saying is that if we wish to have a society where every kid truly has an equal opportunity to pursue their passion to be a doctor, that should be dictated by their effort and commitment, and not what their parents' bank account looks like.
The answer is simple, making public funds available so that any kid can go to college regardless of their parents' economic status. It's the reason why it only takes 2 generations to reach the median income in Finland for impoverished groups, and takes over twice as long here.
Of course, that gets labelled as "socialism" when it's suggested.
I do agree the financial situation of the parents has a lot to do with the ability of the children to succeed, but I also believe culture has even more to do with it than finances. As I mentioned before, how I’ve seen many upper middle class kids trying to emulate the gangsta lifestyle because the cute girls prefer thugs over nerds, but the Nigerian immigrant will come to this country with a culture of learning and hard work, ignoring the “hip-hop lifestyle, and will succeed at the level of Asians.Actually, what I'm suggesting is, that kids born into families that have more money, have more opportunity to pursue the vocation and academic endeavors of their choosing vs. kids who aren't so lucky.
Money does define opportunity for the next generation...which is why we see the economic mobility trends that we see in our country (where over 80% of people end up in the same economic situation as their parents).
If you have a net worth of $0-20k, and I have a net worth of $700k, statistically speaking, my kids are going to end up with a better career and income than yours in 8/10 cases.
Obviously that means that 2/10 are able to overcome that and make up for lost ground...which is why after a certain number of generations, previously oppressed groups do catch up to the median. However, there are policies and actions that can be taken to speed up that process to help facilitate the end goal of all kids being able to pursue their career of choice based on their merit as opposed to how much money their parents have.
I'm not looking to force anyone to do anything...however, to think that it's just random coincidence that "Group A, that's been disproportionately put in a pattern of generational poverty is just so happening to choose more low skill, low paying jobs while Group B is picking higher paid work" is quite suspect.
Why? You don't see cultural influences in career paths?
I've known a lot of Chinese, Indian, and other asians claim that their parents pushed them hard to become doctors. That would certainly explain their disproportionate representation in that particular field.
I think perhaps you might need to consider concepts you didn't want to consider before. That's really the only way to answer the data.
How do you know that isn't the case already? How are you going to measure "effort and commitment"?
It is socialism lol. If effort and commitment are what we intend to reward, then handing out my money to everyone asking seems like a mistake.
I do agree the financial situation of the parents has a lot to do with the ability of the children to succeed, but I also believe culture has even more to do with it than finances. As I mentioned before, how I’ve seen many upper middle class kids trying to emulate the gangsta lifestyle because the cute girls prefer thugs over nerds, but the Nigerian immigrant will come to this country with a culture of learning and hard work, ignoring the “hip-hop lifestyle, and will succeed at the level of Asians.
When you have a culture that treats speaking proper english, excelling in school, and acting/dressing in a professional manner as "acting white", that is a cultural problem that will keep them down. Even 5 generations later; as long as that culture is still in place, they will remain at a disadvantage and the all the government policies and actions in the world won’t change it, that is something the individual has to change.
...because college is extremely expensive, and also the gateway to higher earning jobs.
As it currently stands, a poor kid who tries really hard and excels in academics still has a lesser chance of making something of themselves than a rich kid who exerts a mediocre effort.
Treating post secondary education as a "public service" is no more socialist than how we fund our police & fire departments, libraries, military, etc...
Cultural influences are certainly a factor...but so are cultural stereotypes with regards to hiring practices.
Not all stereotypes are negative-leaning. For instances "Asians are disproportionately smart", "Indians are good with computers", etc...
Even though those particular stereotypes may lead to hiring benefits, they're stereotypes none the less.
It's not just a "one or the other" scenario...of course culture will play a role to some degree.
However, I'm skeptical of the idea that the "black people accuse each other of acting white if they try to better themselves" is accounting for the majority of the issues.
I still think public perception is playing a huge role.
For instance, you mentioned "dressing in a professional manner". Why is it that a manner of dress that's common among white people considered "professional" while a manner of dress that's popular among the black community considered "gangsta"?
Is there some tangible or logical reason why dressing like this:
...somehow exudes an aura of "professionalism" and "upstanding citizen", than dressing like this?
...it seems like it could be a scenario where it's no so much that "young black men are looked down upon because of the way they dress", and more a case of "a certain manner of dress is stigmatized because that's what young black men happen to like to wear".
From what I can tell, it's just superficial clothing preference. No different than the difference between how, for example, Irish and Jewish people dress differently. It wearing plaid and a kilt any more or less professional that wearing a black suit and yarmulke?
Not all black people, not even most black people; but in some cases it does happen.It's not just a "one or the other" scenario...of course culture will play a role to some degree.
However, I'm skeptical of the idea that the "black people accuse each other of acting white if they try to better themselves" is accounting for the majority of the issues.
Nobodys got they draws showin; nobodys got they pants down to their knees.... but both sets of young men are dressed casual; not professional.I I still think public perception is playing a huge role.
For instance, you mentioned "dressing in a professional manner". Why is it that a manner of dress that's common among white people considered "professional" while a manner of dress that's popular among the black community considered "gangsta"?
Is there some tangible or logical reason why dressing like this:
...somehow exudes an aura of "professionalism" and "upstanding citizen", than dressing like this?
Why do black men dress that way? We go back far enough...they wore the same thing white men did.
View attachment 272947
Nobodys got they draws showin; nobodys got they pants down to their knees....
I'd say that these guys look just as ridiculous
as these guys...
...yet, only one got the label of being "thugs"
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