Rabbis...

I will see what I can find out.

Click to expand...

If you do, you should move it over to Messianic Way.
Last time one of the lists showing "rabbis" who had become
Christians was put up here, and we responded, all of our
posts were deleted.

Not very sporting, LOL.

I've known two Rabbis who became Messianic/Christian. Neither of them continued to call themselves "Rabbis". Otherwise, of the dozens and dozens and dozens of "Messianic Rabbis" not one of them that I ever encountered was an actual Rabbi. It was a title they loosely tossed around. I wish Messianics understood how offensive that can be to the very community they wish to convert to their Messianic ideas.

I guess the same can be said of the Messianics who wear a Tallit.

IT is a title... for a position in which they are called to fulfill... who are we to declare that they are not called...

I find more offense with the term Reverend.. like we are suppose to revere them for their position with God. ...eeeck

simchat_torah said:

You won't find one of these. I looked for years, they were all liars. Sad but true.

Click to expand...

Shalom Alecheim

Well, I never met a Rabbi who was not a liar, and at first I might have been upset since it was in Judaism as well as Messianic, but I recalled the Scripture:

ALL Men are liars and the truth is not in them.

I took this to mean that we all better finf women Rabbi's and join reform..........

But to be real.

There are NO perfect rabbis, and even in New York in the 70's there was the noted sting of some Orthodox soliciting prostitutes, which coincidentally not long after that Swaggart got busted so there IS equal play.

Reality is there are good rabbis, and good intentions as well as worthwhile people to learn in part from.

I do not Call Y'shua a Rabbi, not is he mine. But as the Son of G-d and Lord, I do follow Him implicitly.

ALL the others, sooner or later, I either wind up counseling them "off the record" and in places we don't discuss or I find them getting less "righteous and more like

Simchat_Torah and Eben Abram. Liars, as the scripture says.

As well as you.

Eben Abram


I would say women are excluded, but, well, I have been married before.......

And let every man be found a liar and God be found true.

simchat_torah said:

Let me clarify Visionary...
Sure, you might have a pastor who received doctrination from a seminary who has Jewish ancestory. But you will not find a Jewish Rabbi who received simcha from a Yeshivah in the Messianic circles. Rabbi does NOT mean someone who is/was Jewish and now follows MJ'ism. Rabbi is someone who was certified with a simcha at a Yeshivah.

So while you point to a number of Christians who discovered Jewish ancestory and now are pastors... this is NOT what I'm referring to. I'm referring to Rabbis, which by definition must be someone who received their simcha from a Yeshivah. Any other use of the word Rabbi is just deceptive. One who is a pastor and travels around and calls themselves a Rabbi is only fooling the audience. Just like McCain can't go around the country and call himself president elect, he did not recieve proper certification to use that title.

In all my years in MJ'ism, I never once found a "Rabbi" who taught in Messianic circles. Sure, many used the title, but it was not honest.

As hard, and long, and wide as Remy Sheppard searches, they will most likely never find a Messianic Rabbi. They will certainly find those deceptively using the title, but they probably won't ever find an actual legit Rabbi who espouses Messianic beliefs.

Click to expand...

Well, I agree on Simchat_Torahs talking points on almost every example but one, Look up Scott Brown, former or maybe still with Chosen People, It would be intersting to try to negate him as a Rabbi.

ALL the others? well, maybe one or two who do not want to be known, so they are negated since if they are still where they are, I am sure they don't count since they are not overt.

But Simchat_Torah has point as to HIS PREFERENCE to rabbis, In actuality, he would also negate Reform pretty much which IS the largest SECT in Judaism.

OH WELL, Viva la Reforma.....LOL

PS. Guess who is the largest Messianic Groups now.....lol....they aren't MJAA....but if you speak spanish, better check out latest group to get a corss over bug from Catholicism to Messianic.

ANd I thought Messianic Movement couldn't get any messier, and bingo, or AIIIEEE che wah wah, los gringos hay nada porgue los hobres del senor es mejor in latinos que dicen hay Messianic.

Whose next? the Arab league of Messianic Beleivers? ROFL.

AND I THOUGHT JUDAISM was having an identity crisis with the Large Homosexual community in Israel wanting to be a part of Orthodox and ONE Orthodox rabbi taking a stand for them to not practice (yet) but to come in and daven....with the Rabbis knowledge that they are.....homosexual.....

It is getting interesting..........


Eben Abram

ChavaK said:

If you do, you should move it over to Messianic Way.
Last time one of the lists showing "rabbis" who had become
Christians was put up here, and we responded, all of our
posts were deleted.

Not very sporting, LOL.

Click to expand...

Shalom Alecheim.

If you do as the poster above suggests, please email me a copy of the post if it gets deleted.

mrnetbizness@gmail.com

I really doubt here, under the Moderators on this Forum and Administrators, in Messianic Judaism and The Messianic Way will delete unless there is an obvious infraction and have seen how a certain liberality by some might be mistaken by others, BUT

I go to town over censorship that is not IN KEEPing with the Rules of the Board and have taken years to argue when I see injustice.

I won on AOL once, lost twice in TheologyForum.com, and came to terms with them after a long discussion, lol, then they closed the board.
Got booted from most of Trimms sites, but who hasn't. Hmmm

I would like to see the posts, because, if deleted, I do support Authority evn if I don't agree, but I appeal if it is done arbitrarily which I hear others say happens, but I have not seen though I have been contacted on removing posts which I agreed should be removed of mine.

So yes, post the list and if Jews act like papparzzi and make a field day of false accusations, I would say, let the Moderators in.

But is there ios genuine dialogue and exchange, I see no reason deleting should occur within the guidlines of the Board.

Eben Abram

simchat_torah said:

I've known two Rabbis who became Messianic/Christian. Neither of them continued to call themselves "Rabbis". Otherwise, of the dozens and dozens and dozens of "Messianic Rabbis" not one of them that I ever encountered was an actual Rabbi. It was a title they loosely tossed around. I wish Messianics understood how offensive that can be to the very community they wish to convert to their Messianic ideas.

I guess the same can be said of the Messianics who wear a Tallit.

Click to expand...

Bitterness?

I guess the same can be said of the Messianics who wear a Tallit.

Care to explain that one?

If i was wearing your personal tallis, that I agree, but if you are upset someone wears a tallis, you are loosing perspective and I suppose non-jews can't wear levis because they were made by Levi Strauss.

Sorry you are so young, but we even wore the flag at a rally in the Olympics which by all that is said of HOW TO HOLD A FLAG was a trasgression, but Gretzky? Or whoever, was proud to bear the flag on the ice.

Eben

The taleth or talet (Sephardic Hebrew) tallit (Hebrew: טַלִּית&#8206, also tallis (Ashkenazic Hebrew and Yiddish) is a Jewish prayer shawl worn while reciting morning prayers (Shacharit) as well as in the synagogue on Sabbath and holidays. The tallit has special twined and knotted fringes known as tzitzit attached to its four corners. It is sometimes referred to as arba kanfot (lit. "four corners") although the term is more common for a tallit katan, an undergarment with tzitzit. According to the biblical commandment, a blue thread known as tekhelet is supposed to be included in the tzitzit. Various methods of knotting the fringes have evolved.

Link

Ruach HaKodesh period. But we all want to belong and hang with others who have a yearning to find truth, but at the same time we all want what we want to find, not what Ruach HaKodesh wants for us to find. That is the dilema. For when we look to another man, we have failed because most men(women too) are seeking and haven't found. Have you tested the Spirits? Has Ruach HaKodesh spoke to you? Doesn't an evil generation want proof of this? Has those in Christianity want you to just believe and it will happen or a Jew want you to do things according to Torah, well actually according to Talmud(man's own understanding of what Torah is) and also you must be blood related to even have a start in their form of belief.
So what is left? Only one, Ruach HaKodesh.
I don't claim I have heard or was taught for I to am just a man who fell way short of the glory of Our Father and even after thinking I know alot of what is, I come way short of that filling of Ruach HaKodesh. I am a mere speck of dust that has been blowing in the wind of doctrines till I got plastered up on the side of some rock waiting for a flood to wash me to the place I must be.
What else can I say, but blabber what I think I know, when in fact I know nothing at all from all the studies and learning I have done over the years, even while with my mind clouded over by pot. Finally that is over, but I am left with a constant barrage of pain in my head as I see the Blasphmous crap this world has come to, especially in the circles that should know the truth but hold on to the lies.
Some say love covers a multitude of sins. Well, is the love you have in you a blind love, following blindly those who taught you that? I'm sorry for I haven't had the pleasure of meeting but a very few who would step out of their realm to rub their spirit against my so tainted spirit to show me this love. And many of those I feel are taught those lies I sense from those who have been taught those lies beforehand, generation after generation, liars begetting liars. Who has all truth? Ruach HaKodesh and only through that which is provided by The Almighty El can one find solace which me being a hypocrite according to my learning, I can't share in till I change. On one side says you are accepted as you are, a lie. On the other side you are to become a stiff-necker person who could careless what others not of your blood care about. So which side do I choose, for I do not choose all those other beliefs out there that have more lies in them then the two I mentioned above. But who am I but a speck of dust blowing in the wind waiting and looking for that truth that is but a narrow path to land upon...

Bitterness?

Click to expand...

Nope. Not at all.

I guess the same can be said of the Messianics who wear a Tallit.

Care to explain that one?

Click to expand...

Wearing a Tallit is significant in that it represents the completion of Bar/Bat Mitzvah. However, in Messianic circles nearly everyone wears one. Moreover, I've hardly met a Messianic who even knows what the knots in the tzitzit represent. I've seen dozens of Messianics who wear tzitzit on their belt loops no less! How is that even a "corner of the garment"???

I could go on and on, but you get the picture. In general, this random people group (messianics in this case) are abusing an ancient tradition they barely understand... of course that will be seen as offensive to the Jewish people. It is sad how little Messianics consider "the Jew" they attempt to emulate.

Shalom alecheim

hmm,

I would agree with you if I had seen that extreme, I haven't but I am in a different part of the country, and likely different circles.

People, any people, should KNOW what they do and why.

In regards to abuses like you mention, well, me personally, I educate on the spot immediately.

Yes, it drives people crazy as well as my wife but I do have interesting ahhhhh converations with people.

Eben

Eben Abram said:

Bitterness?

I guess the same can be said of the Messianics who wear a Tallit.

Care to explain that one?

If i was wearing your personal tallis, that I agree, but if you are upset someone wears a tallis, you are loosing perspective and I suppose non-jews can't wear levis because they were made by Levi Strauss.

Sorry you are so young, but we even wore the flag at a rally in the Olympics which by all that is said of HOW TO HOLD A FLAG was a trasgression, but Gretzky? Or whoever, was proud to bear the flag on the ice.

Eben

Click to expand...

Gretzky is a Canadian.

simchat_torah said:

Nope. Not at all.

Wearing a Tallit is significant in that it represents the completion of Bar/Bat Mitzvah. However, in Messianic circles nearly everyone wears one. Moreover, I've hardly met a Messianic who even knows what the knots in the tzitzit represent. I've seen dozens of Messianics who wear tzitzit on their belt loops no less! How is that even a "corner of the garment"???

I could go on and on, but you get the picture. In general, this random people group (messianics in this case) are abusing an ancient tradition they barely understand... of course that will be seen as offensive to the Jewish people. It is sad how little Messianics consider "the Jew" they attempt to emulate.

Click to expand...

Love your generalizations.
Yes darlin' "Messianics" do know what the knots mean. We also know about tekhelet. You must not know very many Jewish believers.
In Israel I've seen quite a few who wear tzitzit but their lifestyle betrays that they even know why Jews wear tzitzit in the first place.

visionary said:

Gretzky is a Canadian.

Click to expand...

I knew when i wrote it I had the wrong guy but rather than listen to someone think I am in DENIAL, I WAS WRONG.

LOL

I Used the WRONG PERSON, but you got the idea.....

LOL MY apologies to all canadians, but Wayne is on his own since he left Canada.

Eben

anisavta said:

Love your generalizations.
Yes darlin' "Messianics" do know what the knots mean. We also know about tekhelet. You must not know very many Jewish believers.
In Israel I've seen quite a few who wear tzitzit but their lifestyle betrays that they even know why Jews wear tzitzit in the first place.

Click to expand...

Anisvata, though young at the time, Simchat_torah was a well known person on the boards in the early messianic movement.

He took alot of flak for and defended the faith of Jews who were messianics, but he also saw the first wave of False Jews and Christian Wannabe's that in a few short months exploded the Messianic Movement into the Mess it is still reeling from.

At the time there were roughly 10 Congs and in one month, 1000 more claimed to be Rabbis and Messianic.

The Seventh Day Adventist amoung others, literally took down thier shingle and more than anyone could chronicle accurately almost destroyed the movement.

I saw the heresies come in and many remain as well as those Jews who got disgusted and left everything behind to find their own answer in G-d. When Simchat_Torah left He had dealt with a lot of personal and faith issues and now is joined to a community in Conversion as he said, though he is in fact a Jew.

His Choice and the choices of the community he ascribes to. I support him in his decision and respect his scholarship back then, as well as now. I may not agree always in the ways and means he presents material, but we all seek to understand and respond as best we know how.

The Journey Simchat is on, is not my own, but I see in his post accuracy and he states errors on both sides when it is called for, as do I.

I was confronted recently on an issue where this topic came up and to them I advised NOT TO "adorn" themselves in quasi Jewish arraignment.

Others in different settings I mention as the Lord leads. In the posts above, I see his point, and I see yours, He may have seen alot of negative and that could be as G-d wanted him to see it so he can get to where he is today.

Eben Abram

I remember how he was before the "holy" laughter experience... and now.

Eben Abram said:

Eben Abram

Click to expand...

Times were different, back in the day...

johnd said:

Times were different, back in the day...

​

Click to expand...

Yeah they were:

Love your generalizations.

Click to expand...

So I take it you want to tell me that the majority of Messianics you know who wear a Tallit have had a Bar or Bat Mitzvah?

Surely I must have exaggerated, eh?

Or... you made an empty accusation.


I'd put my money on the latter dear.

I'm not going to get into a shouting match with you concerning who I know and what they do.
I can't speak for the many who call themselves Messianics any more than you can speak for the many who call themselves non Messianics. What I do know is that those who I know and associate with both Jews and Gentiles know very well the significance of tallitot and of tzitzit.
The Jews who attend my shul and wear tallitot have indeed bat/bar mitzvah-ed. Of the Gentiles they have either been bar/bat Avraham or consider themselves grafted into the commonwealth of Israel (sorry if you don't agree but ... oh well).
Do they have your approval? Don't know and probably not. Do they have HaShem's approval? Yes sir they have.
Yes I have seen the tzitzit on the belt loop and I cringe.
Maybe it's time instead of rolling our eyes and declaring war on the Messianic believers who truly want to do it right but don't know how to sit down one on one and explain in love why we do what we do and what HaShem expects.
I'm dang tired of everyone shooting the wounded instead of healing them.