Quran!

ravenwolf · Jul 30, 2004

What does Bible mean????
And did Christians use the word Bible before the Bible was compiled????
And what did the word Bible mean before it was used in reference to the Christian holy book???
Blessings
~ravenwolf

new_manII · Jul 31, 2004

hello Art,

According to "A Dictionary of Islam" the word Qur'an is derived from the Arabic "Qara" which occurs at the beginning of Surih 95 which is said to have been the first Surih revealed to Prophet Muhammad and has the same meaning as the Hebrew word "kara" "to read" or "recite"... - p. 483

So can I use the word Quran, to refer to other books that're being recited ? or we cannot use it to refer to any books but the "Holy Book of Muslims"?

so the word Qur'an refers to the recitations or Revelations received by the Holy Prophet.

good. You've said that its origin is the verb to read. but you say that the word Quran refers to the Revelations received by the Holy Prophet!!!
so Arabs didn't use it before the Revelations received by the Holy Prophet ? or they used it??
....
my question is very simple.
we got two answers here
1- that the word Quran is from the verb "to read" in arabic. and it means "Reading"
2- that the word Quran means the words of Allah to Muhmnd....

and both answers cannot go together.
for, if it means "Reading", then it can refer to any book not only the "Muslim Holy Book" [so this violates the second answer].

And if it means "The words of Allah to Muhmnd", then Arab didn't know what does the word mean when they heard it for the first time. for, before Quran, there was no such a thing with that name. [so this violates the first answer]

so, which one you choose? the first or the second?
Thanks

What does Bible mean????

it's a greek word means "Book", search www.google.com and you can get a more-detailed answer...

And did Christians use the word Bible before the Bible was compiled????
And what did the word Bible mean before it was used in reference to the Christian holy book???

+Yes Christians and Jews and Greek and others used the word Bible for it's a normal greek word means "book" ...
+The word "Bible" does not exist in the Bible. and the word bible has the same meaning as the word "Book"... In Arabic for example, we call it "Al-Ketab Al Moqadas" i.e. "the Holy Book"

The word Quran does exist in the Quran. so what does it mean?
so, should I wait for a clear answer for my question?
Thanks
nmII

Arthra · Jul 31, 2004

New man:

I think you've got yourself twisted up in "knot" here.

It's not complicated at all.... The word Qur'an means the Recitations from Divine Revelation received through Prophet Muhammad.

The process of Revelation through Prophet Muhammad called for Him to recite what was given to Him. So He recited it! He obeyed God and the Words came....

Later, they were written down by scribes and recited verbally by His Companions and this formed the Qur'an we have today!

The word "Qara" by itself is just an Arabic word... to convey what occurred.

Holy Scriptures like the Bible and the Qur'an are inspired by God and accepted by us as coming from Divine Revelation... they rank on a Higher Plain than the mere inspiration of a poet.

- Art

new_manII · Aug 1, 2004

The word Qur'an means the Recitations from Divine Revelation received through Prophet Muhammad.

Great! before the Divine Revelation received through Prophet Muhammad was there any Quran? was the word *Quran* known to Arabs?
[Yes it was - No it was not ]

Thanks

Arthra · Aug 1, 2004

I think the word "Qara'a" was known to the Arabs before the "Qur'an" was revealed through Prophet Muhammad, and is virtually the same word as used in the Bible in Jonah 3:2 for proclamation (qara') and preaching (q@riy'ah)! So it is an ancient semitic word.

"Qara'a" means:

"to read,

"read a written thing,

"recite with or without having script,

"proclaim,

"convey,

"call,

"rehearse,

"transmit,

"deliver (a message)"

The meaning of "Qur'an":

"Book which is meant to be read, conveyed, delivered, recited, procalimed, delivered, rehearsed, transmitted, collected and which comprises all spiritual truth."

- p. 448 The Dictionary of the Holy Qur'an by Abdul Raman Omar

We Baha'is regarded the Qur'an as an "authentic repository of the Word of God".

- Art

new_manII · Aug 1, 2004

Hello Art
I know that the verd Qara'a [to read] is knows to Arabs...
my question is about the word "Quran"
you said "The meaning of "Qur'an":
"Book which is meant to be read, conveyed, delivered, recited, procalimed, delivered, rehearsed, transmitted, collected and which comprises all spiritual truth."

- p. 448 The Dictionary of the Holy Qur'an by Abdul Raman Omar
We Baha'is regarded the Qur'an as an "authentic repository of the Word of God"."

so before Allah give that Book which is meant to be read, conveyed, delivered, recited, procalimed, delivered, rehearsed, transmitted, collected and which comprises all spiritual truth , was there any Quran? was the word *Quran* known to Arabs?
[Yes it was - No it was not ]
I am asking about the word "Quran"

thanks

IronEagle · Aug 1, 2004

For your question you can go to a proper muslim forum. Here is a good one: http://www.understanding-islam.org/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=6

new_manII · Aug 2, 2004

hello IE
is it that hard to give the meaning of the *arabic* word Quran?

nmII

Arthra · Aug 2, 2004

new_manII wrote:

"...so before Allah give that "Book which is meant to be read, conveyed, delivered, recited, procalimed, delivered, rehearsed, transmitted, collected and which comprises all spiritual truth", was there any Quran? was the word *Quran* known to Arabs?
[Yes it was - No it was not ]
I am asking about the word "Quran"

My reply:

Personally, I haven't heard of the word "Al-Qur'an" used by the Arabs before it was revealed through Prophet Muhammad. The word it derives from "Qara" as I pointed out was an ancient semitic word in use and even found in the Bible.

Divine Guidance and Revelation was from very ancient times and progressively revealed.

- Art

new_manII · Aug 2, 2004

Hello Art

Personally, I haven't heard of the word "Al-Qur'an" used by the Arabs before it was revealed through Prophet Muhammad.

Thanks very much for this statment...

now, let's look at the Quran... and where did the word mentioned to *guess* its meaning

Surah 15
1 Alif-lam-ra tilka ayatu alkitabi wa-quran-in mubeenin
Surah 75 16. La tuharrik bihi lisanaka litaAAjala bihi
17. Inna AAalayna jamAAahu wa-qur-an-ahu

so what do you think its meaning?
nmII

Arthra · Aug 2, 2004

new_manII said:
Hello Art
Thanks very much for this statment...

now, let's look at the Quran... and where did the word mentioned to *guess* its meaning

Surah 15
1 Alif-lam-ra tilka ayatu alkitabi wa-quran-in mubeenin
Surah 75 16. La tuharrik bihi lisanaka litaAAjala bihi
17. Inna AAalayna jamAAahu wa-qur-an-ahu

so what do you think its meaning?
nmII

Hellow Newman...

Are you asking for the interpretation in English of the verses you cited?

I also don't understand your sentence:

"..where did the word mentioned to *guess* its meaning"

Your translitation of the verses appears correct though...

- Art

new_manII · Aug 2, 2004

hello Art,
sorry for my poor english ...
I ment ""..where did the word mentioned to *guess* its meaning"" is that, 1- the word *quran* was mentioned in the Holy Book of Muslims.
2- Arabs didn't use that word before. so they didn't know what it means.
so, what we should do to guess its meaning is that, to look at it in its context, and see if we can get a meaning for it.
so i wrote two verses having the word "quran" ...

and now I am asking, if you are going to translate these verses, what will you write?

"Your translitation of the verses appears correct though"
I copied them from "The Noble Quran" website...

waiting for your responce...
be well
nmII

Arthra · Aug 2, 2004

new_manII said:
hello Art,
sorry for my poor english ...
I ment ""..where did the word mentioned to *guess* its meaning"" is that, 1- the word *quran* was mentioned in the Holy Book of Muslims.
2- Arabs didn't use that word before. so they didn't know what it means.
so, what we should do to guess its meaning is that, to look at it in its context, and see if we can get a meaning for it.
so i wrote two verses having the word "quran" ...

and now I am asking, if you are going to translate these verses, what will you write?

"Your translitation of the verses appears correct though"
I copied them from "The Noble Quran" website...

waiting for your responce...
be well
nmII

Sorry Newman...

I don't know enough Arabic to translate myself, that is, I don't have enough expertise. I'm not a scholar in that area.

It's not entirely true though that the word was entirely unknown as we know the root word from which Qur'an derives was Qara...and that you will find the same word in Hebrew as well.

All I meant earlier was that from my limited experience I had not seen the word "Qur'an" referring to any previous text before the revelation of Prophet Muhammad.

When translating a Holy Book like the Qur'an, I think we should use the best scholarship available as well as the most spiritually inspired insight available as it is the Word of God.

I also think any attempt to translate the Word of God from the revealed original language to another language can be very difficult and not done "off the cuff" or simply from our own limited experience and knowledge.

- Art

new_manII · Aug 2, 2004

ok Art,
you beleive in Quran. Do you read it? or you just *beleive it* ?
if you read the Quran, please, open your translated copy [as you don't know arabic], and go to Surah 15, verse 1 and read it...
then go to Surah 75, verse 16,17 and read them...
what do you understand?

Surah 15
1 Alif-lam-ra tilka ayatu alkitabi wa-quran-in mubeenin
Alef lam Ra' -> [no one understand what does that mean.]
Tilka -> those are
ayat-u -> verses of
alkitab-i -> The Book
wa -> and
quran-in -> [reading - interpretation]
mubeen -> plain and clear

Surah 75
16. La tuharrik bihi lisanaka litaAAjala bihi
17. Inna AAalayna jamAAahu wa-qur-an-ahu

Inna -> it's
AAalayna -> on us [Allah]
jamAAa-hu -> (to) collect it
wa -> and
quran-ahu -> [read - interpret] it
?

when i read these verses, i understand that the word Quran means interpretaion or explaination...
in the first verse, it makes perfect meaning and the second one too...
-> these are the verses of the book [the Bible] and a plain&clear explaination...
-> it's on us to collect it and explain it...
and in Aramic, the verb "Qarawa" means to explain and interpret. [not sure of the exact pronounciation]

so what do you think about that? can you accept that the word Quran meaning explaination ?
love,
nmII

Arthra · Aug 2, 2004

new_manII said:
ok Art,
you beleive in Quran. Do you read it? or you just *beleive it* ?
if you read the Quran, please, open your translated copy [as you don't know arabic], and go to Surah 15, verse 1 and read it...
then go to Surah 75, verse 16,17 and read them...
what do you understand?

Surah 15
1 Alif-lam-ra tilka ayatu alkitabi wa-quran-in mubeenin
Alef lam Ra' -> [no one understand what does that mean.]
Tilka -> those are
ayat-u -> verses of
alkitab-i -> The Book
wa -> and
quran-in -> [reading - interpretation]
mubeen -> plain and clear

Surah 75
16. La tuharrik bihi lisanaka litaAAjala bihi
17. Inna AAalayna jamAAahu wa-qur-an-ahu

Inna -> it's
AAalayna -> on us [Allah]
jamAAa-hu -> (to) collect it
wa -> and
quran-ahu -> [read - interpret] it
?

when i read these verses, i understand that the word Quran means interpretaion or explaination...
in the first verse, it makes perfect meaning and the second one too...
-> these are the verses of the book [the Bible] and a plain&clear explaination...
-> it's on us to collect it and explain it...
and in Aramic, the verb "Qarawa" means to explain and interpret. [not sure of the exact pronounciation]

so what do you think about that? can you accept that the word Quran meaning explaination ?
love,
nmII

In my A. Yusuf Ai translation verse 17, Surih 75 has the following:

"It is for Us to collect it and recite it.." So here "qur'aanah" is translated "recite";

and in verse 18:

"But when We have recited it, followed thou its recital"

So "qara'-naahu" is translated "recited" and "qur-'aanah" is translated "recital".

So the word seems to me to be closer to the English word "recital"

I also use a more modern translation by M.A.S. Abdel Haleem which goes like this:

"(17) We shall make sure of its safe collection and recitation.

(18) When We have recited it, repeat the recitation and We shall make it clear."

So it seems that "recitation" is closer according to the Qur'an translations available to me to the word "Qara".

If you'll note in Haleem's translation it says

"When We have recited it, repeat the recitation and We shall make it clear."

This is the same pattern of Revelation Prophet Muhammad received from Mount Hira to the last Surih.

- Art

new_manII · Aug 10, 2004

Hello Art, sorry for being a bit late...

"It is for Us to collect it and recite it.." So here "qur'aanah" is translated "recite";

ok my friend...
think about this, Allah will collect the quran... ok?
how will Allah recite it????
and let's assume that "quran" meaning reciting... so what does this verse mean "those are the verses of the Book and clear recitation!!!"
does it make any sence?
Quran says that Quran explaination is some for Allah to do...
in Suran 3:7 ... None knoweth its explanation save Allah...
so it's logical to say that it's on Allah to collect it [save it] and explain it...
and in this case, the first verse will make sence too "these are the verses of the Book and plain explaination"
right?

so what do you say?

be well
nmII

mssy543 · Aug 10, 2004

Hello Newman,

"think about this, Allah will collect the quran... ok?

how will Allah recite it????"

The answer is within the ayah, if you want a more detailed answer you can go to

www.thenoblequran.com , and check the tafseer of the ayats.

It is for Us to collect it and to give you (O Muhammad SAW) the ability to recite it (the Qur'ân), (Al-Qiyamah 75:17)

And when We have recited it to you [O Muhammad SAW through Jibrael (Gabriel)], then follow you its (the Qur'ân's) recital. (Al-Qiyamah 75:18)

Then it is for Us (Allâh) to make it clear to you, (Al-Qiyamah 75:19)

Does it make any sence?

Yes it would be clear, if you would not translate it yourself and see the interpretations (tafseer) of well known interpretors like tabarai or ibn katheer

Salam

Mssy

new_manII · Aug 10, 2004

hello Mssy
thanks for your post.

Yes it would be clear, if you would not translate it yourself and see the interpretations (tafseer) of well known interpretors like tabarai or ibn katheer

So now Tabari is a well known interpretor!
but your sister in Islam Rahma said that Tabari is rejected by most muslims!!
http://christianforums.com/t728238&page=6 post#54

rahma said:
Just as a note, Tabari is NOT quran, it is commentary from the 10th century ce, and is rejected by most muslims.

and is rejected by most muslims.
and is rejected by most muslims.
and is rejected by most muslims.
and is rejected by most muslims.
so do you accept him or reject him like "most muslims" as your sister Rahma says ? or it depends on the subject?

anyway,
First:

It is for Us to collect it and to give you (O Muhammad SAW) the ability to recite it (the Qur'ân), (Al-Qiyamah 75:17)

please, translate this word for word

17. Inna AAalayna jamAAahu wa-qur-an-ahu

and let's see if it says "to give you the ability oh Muhamed to recite it" or not.

Second:

and let's assume that "quran" meaning reciting... so what does this verse mean "those are the verses of the Book and clear recitation!!!"
does it make any sence?

Quran says that Quran explaination is some for Allah to do...
in Suran 3:7 ... None knoweth its explanation save Allah...

so it's logical to say that it's on Allah to collect it [save it] and explain it...
and in this case, the first verse will make sence too "these are the verses of the Book and plain explaination"
right?

so what do you say?

PS: hope to read your answers in the *clear up...* thread...
be well
nmII

Arthra · Aug 10, 2004

new_manII wrote:

Hello Art, sorry for being a bit late...
ok my friend...

think about this, Allah will collect the quran... ok?
how will Allah recite it????

Reply:

How was the Qur'an revealed to Prophet Muhammad? That's how revealtion came.

NM:

and let's assume that "quran" meaning reciting... so what does this verse mean "those are the verses of the Book and clear recitation!!!"
does it make any sence?

Reply:

Yes, to me it makes sense...Prophet Muhammad recited what He received and others recorded it and recited it in turn...

NM:

Quran says that Quran explaination is some for Allah to do...

Reply:

This doesn't make sense to me: "Quran explaination is some for Allah to do..."
I have no idea what that means.

NM:

in Suran 3:7 ... None knoweth its explanation save Allah...
so it's logical to say that it's on Allah to collect it [save it] and explain it...
and in this case, the first verse will make sence too "these are the verses of the Book and plain explaination"
right?

so what do you say?

My Reply:

The meanings of Revealed Scripture are beyond any one explanation... and the Source of Revelation or God ...Allah is where we turn in humble prayer and submission for "explanation".

Revelation from God has been continuous from the earliest times and we Baha'is believe it is progressive.

- Art

PurelyIslam · Aug 12, 2004

NewMan said:
"those are the verses of the Book and clear recitation!!!" does it make any sence?

Yes it makes all sense....I dont see anything that is tricky to understand... "And indeed, We have made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember; then is there any that will remember?"Quran 54:40..

Newman, I truly feel merciful pity when I see how you are trying hard to find a fault in a Book free of faults..People with far more knowledge and who were masters in the Arabic language and who lived in pre-islamic arabic (the peak age of mastering that language) have said that the Quran is something that has no equal to so how can u know more??

Have you ever heard of Al Walid bin Al-Mughirah Al-Makhzumi ??

He was one of the chiefs of the Quraysh. Ibn Abbas said "Al-Walid bin Al-Mughirah entered the house of Abu Bakr bin Abi Quhafah and asked him about the Qur'an. When Abu Bakr informed him about it, he left and went to the Quraysh saying, 'What a great thing this is that Ibn Abi Kabshah is saying. I swear by Allah that it is not poetry, nor magic, nor the prattling of insanity. Verily, his speech is from the Words of Allah!' So when a group of the Quraysh heard this they gathered and said, 'By Allah, if Al-Walid converts (to Islam) all of the Quraysh will convert.' When Abu Jahl bin Hisham heard this he said, 'By Allah, I will deal with him for you.' So he went to Al-Walid's house and entered upon him. He said to Al-Walid, 'Don't you see that your people are collecting charity for you' Al-Walid replied, 'Don't I have more wealth and children than they do' Abu Jahl answered, 'They are saying that you only went to Ibn Abi Quhafah's house so that you can get some of his food.' Al-Walid then said, 'Is this what my tribe is saying Nay, by Allah, I am not seeking to be close to Ibn Abi Quhafah, nor Umar, nor Ibn Abi Kabshah. And his speech is only inherited magic of old.'

*Ibn Abi Kabshah is a title the pagans used to make fun of the blessed Propeht peace be upon him..

You see they turned away from the miraculous Quran not cuz they denied its the truth even as pagans, but because pride made them blind...

May Allah remove the blinds from our hearts and eyes till we return to Him on a status of Islam...Amen..

Purely..

Quran!

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