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Quirinius, Luke

FaithT

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Jonaitis

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The Greek word for “first” in Luke 2:2 is a form of the word protos and can be translated “before.” Thus Luke 2:2 could actually be translated, “This was the census taken before Quirinius was governor of Syria.”
Sadly, whoever wrote this article on GotQuestions mistakenly implies "prótos" is an adverb, and selectively chooses "before," one of the equivalent English translations, to read the passage in that way. The form of "prótos" used in this sentence is an adjective, describing something, that is, the census. This was the first census of Quirinius. All other translations do not read in the way GotQuestions has framed it. If you look in your concordance, you will see the same usage.

Not only that, but if we were to read the sentence in that way, what census is Luke referring to that is related to the period and geography of that time? It makes even more sense that this is referring to the census Quirinius himself issued for the Judean province in 6 AD. We should not have to play gymnastics to make a passage "work" with what we want to believe, it should defend itself.

It also does not address Luke 2:1, which implies that this particular census was empire-wide. There have only been a few of them in Roman times, and they were not in any period close to the date we set for Christ.
 
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HTacianas

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Does Luke’s claim that Jesus was born in Bethlehem at the time of Quirinius’ census match the historical record? | GotQuestions.org


We were discussing this on another sub forum and thought this one would be more appropriate. This offers an explanation for the seemingly discrepancy in Luke.

Off the bat, you should know that I don't pay much attention to gotquestions.org. They are notoriously wrong. That being said, if you read the opening of Luke you'll see he states that he had investigated matters. That of course would mean he spoke to people who were eyewitnesses to the story he was writing. So in the end, someone recounted from memory when the events occurred and reasonably believed that Quirinius was governor at the time. Luke recorded it. It is inaccurate and insignificant.
 
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Jonaitis

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It is inaccurate and insignificant.
And because of that, we should not get hung up on the inerrancy of the scientific and historical descriptions of Scripture. It is what it teaches and equips the saints that's all that matters. Its practical use is far more important than its historical or scientific accuracy.
 
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FaithT

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Off the bat, you should know that I don't pay much attention to gotquestions.org. They are notoriously wrong. That being said, if you read the opening of Luke you'll see he states that he had investigated matters. That of course would mean he spoke to people who were eyewitnesses to the story he was writing. So in the end, someone recounted from memory when the events occurred and reasonably believed that Quirinius was governor at the time. Luke recorded it. It is inaccurate and insignificant.
But since the Gospels are inspired by the Holy Spirit shouldn’t it be 100% correct?
 
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FaithT

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And because of that, we should not get hung up on the inerrancy of the scientific and historical descriptions of Scripture. It is what it teaches and equips the saints that's all that matters. Its practical use is far more important than its historical or scientific accuracy.
Do you mind my asking what denomination you belong to?
 
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Jonaitis

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Do you mind my asking what denomination you belong to?
I can't say that I belong neatly into a denomination, although I am member of a Reformed Baptist congregation. I am a cross between a confessionally Reformed Baptist and nondualist/mystic, but I do not care much about titles. I understand the Scripture partly literal, allegorical, christiological, and most importantly, mystical, as it should be read all in all.
 
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Jonaitis

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@FaithT

I posted this when I began to notice some of these discrepancies, and it troubled me at first, because I clung so tightly to divine inerrancy in everything contained in Scripture.

Apparent Chronological Problems
 
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Daniel9v9

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Here's some short commentary on the controversy:

Lutheran Study Bible
Quirinius … governor of Syria. May have held this office twice and conducted a census in each term. First, when Jesus was born, and then in AD 6–9

EHV Study Bible
Or this was the first census, taken before Quirinius was governor of Syria. There is much debate about the grammatical construction of this sentence and about the identification and date of this census. The point of Luke’s remark seems to be to distinguish this census from a more well-known census undertaken during the governorship of Quirinius in about 6 AD (Acts 5:37). There is insufficient information available to pinpoint the year of the census in Luke 2 or Quirinius’s role in it. Commentaries and chronologies should be consulted for arguments for and against the various views.

Here's some more comprehensive commentary:

Lenski's commentary
This, a first enrollment for taxing, occurred while Quirinius (this is the proper spelling) was governing in Syria.

This simple statement of Luke’s has had to bear the brunt of attack, and it did seem as if Luke might have erred. Quirinius was the governor of Syria in A.D. 6 and made an enrollment for taxation at this time, the one mentioned by Luke himself in Acts 5:37 and by Josephus in Antiquities 18, 1, 1. Luke was charged with misdating this enrollment by erroneously transferring it and the governorship of Quirinius from A.D. 6 to B.C. 8. What helped the matter were the mistaken statements of Josephus (on which see Zahn in his commentary on Luke). The word of the renegade Jewish priest Josephus, born as late as 37 or 38 A.D., was accepted in preference to the word of Paul’s faithful assistant, the inspired writer Luke, who was an active member in the church at Antioch as early as the year 40. Recently discovered inscriptions vindicate Luke.

Publius Sulpicius Quirinius was the regular governor in Syria during A.D. 6, when, after the death of Archelaus, a census for taxation was made, which treated Palestine as an ordinary Roman province and thus caused the formation of the militant Jewish party of Zealots, to whom the apostle Simon “the zealot” once belonged (Luke 6:15; Acts 1:13). This party continued until the fall of Jerusalem; the fate of its founder is recorded in Acts 5:37. But Quirinius functioned in Syria during B.C. 7 and after that date, not indeed as regular governor of the province but in a governing capacity. We do not translate ἡγεμονεύοντος “being governor,” i.e., having that ordinary office, but “governing,” i.e., acting in a governing capacity. In other words, at the time of Jesus’ birth somewhere near the year 6 B.C. Varus, who was afterward so thoroughly defeated by the Germans, was the governor of Syria and administered its regular affairs. Let us remember that Herod the Great died in the spring of 4 B.C., and that Jesus was born a year or two before his death (Matt. 2). While Varus was governor, Quirinius controlled the armies and directed the foreign policy of Syria. It was thus that he supervised the enrollment for taxation also in the kingdom of Herod. When Tertullian makes Sentius Saturnius the governor of Syria (B.C. 9–6) instead of Varus, this is a mistake since all indications point to a delay in the execution of the imperial decree in Palestine so that the work began in this part of the realm when Varus held the governorship.

The genitive absolute, “Quirinius governing in Syria,” is not so much a date as a statement regarding the control of the enrollment for taxation. Acting in a governing capacity in Syria, and having broader powers than those of the regular governor, Quirinius managed the enrollment also in Herod’s domain. Herod’s standing with the emperor was not that of a rex socius. He was not king in his own right but was dependent on the φιλία Καίσαρος, was one of the amici Cæsaris who were dependent on the amicitia of the emperor. How easily Herod might have forfeited the emperor’s favor is shown by Josephus, Antiquities 16, 9, 3, where the emperor reprimands Herod for his war with the Arabians and tells him that he formerly used him as a friend (φίλος) but will now use him as a subject (ὑπήκοος). The view that no personal representative of the emperor could supervise the taxing in Herod’s domain is an unwarranted conclusion. We do not know what delayed the matter in Palestine. Some think of a reluctance on Herod’s part, and others suppose an alacrity on Herod’s part because he desired the emperor’s favor. It is not safe to guess. Whether we omit ἡ and read: “this as the first enrollment,” or retain it: “this first enrollment,” makes little difference; but “first” means, not that other enrollments followed, but that nothing of the kind had ever been decreed in the past.
 
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FaithT

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Here's some short commentary on the controversy:

Lutheran Study Bible
Quirinius … governor of Syria. May have held this office twice and conducted a census in each term. First, when Jesus was born, and then in AD 6–9

EHV Study Bible
Or this was the first census, taken before Quirinius was governor of Syria. There is much debate about the grammatical construction of this sentence and about the identification and date of this census. The point of Luke’s remark seems to be to distinguish this census from a more well-known census undertaken during the governorship of Quirinius in about 6 AD (Acts 5:37). There is insufficient information available to pinpoint the year of the census in Luke 2 or Quirinius’s role in it. Commentaries and chronologies should be consulted for arguments for and against the various views.

Here's some more comprehensive commentary:

Lenski's commentary
This, a first enrollment for taxing, occurred while Quirinius (this is the proper spelling) was governing in Syria.

This simple statement of Luke’s has had to bear the brunt of attack, and it did seem as if Luke might have erred. Quirinius was the governor of Syria in A.D. 6 and made an enrollment for taxation at this time, the one mentioned by Luke himself in Acts 5:37 and by Josephus in Antiquities 18, 1, 1. Luke was charged with misdating this enrollment by erroneously transferring it and the governorship of Quirinius from A.D. 6 to B.C. 8. What helped the matter were the mistaken statements of Josephus (on which see Zahn in his commentary on Luke). The word of the renegade Jewish priest Josephus, born as late as 37 or 38 A.D., was accepted in preference to the word of Paul’s faithful assistant, the inspired writer Luke, who was an active member in the church at Antioch as early as the year 40. Recently discovered inscriptions vindicate Luke.

Publius Sulpicius Quirinius was the regular governor in Syria during A.D. 6, when, after the death of Archelaus, a census for taxation was made, which treated Palestine as an ordinary Roman province and thus caused the formation of the militant Jewish party of Zealots, to whom the apostle Simon “the zealot” once belonged (Luke 6:15; Acts 1:13). This party continued until the fall of Jerusalem; the fate of its founder is recorded in Acts 5:37. But Quirinius functioned in Syria during B.C. 7 and after that date, not indeed as regular governor of the province but in a governing capacity. We do not translate ἡγεμονεύοντος “being governor,” i.e., having that ordinary office, but “governing,” i.e., acting in a governing capacity. In other words, at the time of Jesus’ birth somewhere near the year 6 B.C. Varus, who was afterward so thoroughly defeated by the Germans, was the governor of Syria and administered its regular affairs. Let us remember that Herod the Great died in the spring of 4 B.C., and that Jesus was born a year or two before his death (Matt. 2). While Varus was governor, Quirinius controlled the armies and directed the foreign policy of Syria. It was thus that he supervised the enrollment for taxation also in the kingdom of Herod. When Tertullian makes Sentius Saturnius the governor of Syria (B.C. 9–6) instead of Varus, this is a mistake since all indications point to a delay in the execution of the imperial decree in Palestine so that the work began in this part of the realm when Varus held the governorship.

The genitive absolute, “Quirinius governing in Syria,” is not so much a date as a statement regarding the control of the enrollment for taxation. Acting in a governing capacity in Syria, and having broader powers than those of the regular governor, Quirinius managed the enrollment also in Herod’s domain. Herod’s standing with the emperor was not that of a rex socius. He was not king in his own right but was dependent on the φιλία Καίσαρος, was one of the amici Cæsaris who were dependent on the amicitia of the emperor. How easily Herod might have forfeited the emperor’s favor is shown by Josephus, Antiquities 16, 9, 3, where the emperor reprimands Herod for his war with the Arabians and tells him that he formerly used him as a friend (φίλος) but will now use him as a subject (ὑπήκοος). The view that no personal representative of the emperor could supervise the taxing in Herod’s domain is an unwarranted conclusion. We do not know what delayed the matter in Palestine. Some think of a reluctance on Herod’s part, and others suppose an alacrity on Herod’s part because he desired the emperor’s favor. It is not safe to guess. Whether we omit ἡ and read: “this as the first enrollment,” or retain it: “this first enrollment,” makes little difference; but “first” means, not that other enrollments followed, but that nothing of the kind had ever been decreed in the past.
Wow, thanks! That’s a lot to digest. I’ll have to reread it tomorrow, but bottom line, is the point that Luke did not make an error after all, and there’s nothing to worry about with regards to this?
 
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HTacianas

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But since the Gospels are inspired by the Holy Spirit shouldn’t it be 100% correct?

The gospels are inspired by the Holy Spirit and are 100 percent correct. But the writers of the bible were not God's "auto pen". One of the things I most admire about the Orthodox Church is its statement on the inerrancy of the bible:

It is the faith of the Orthodox Church that the Bible, as the divinely-inspired Word of God in the words of men, contains no formal errors or inner contradictions concerning the relationship between God and the world. There may be incidental inaccuracies of a non-essential character in the Bible. But the eternal spiritual and doctrinal message of God, presented in the Bible in many different ways, remains perfectly consistent, authentic, and true.

The Orthodox Faith - Volume I - Doctrine and Scripture - The Bible - Word of God
 
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FaithT

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The gospels are inspired by the Holy Spirit and are 100 percent correct. But the writers of the bible were not God's "auto pen". One of the things I most admire about the Orthodox Church is its statement on the inerrancy of the bible:

It is the faith of the Orthodox Church that the Bible, as the divinely-inspired Word of God in the words of men, contains no formal errors or inner contradictions concerning the relationship between God and the world. There may be incidental inaccuracies of a non-essential character in the Bible. But the eternal spiritual and doctrinal message of God, presented in the Bible in many different ways, remains perfectly consistent, authentic, and true.

The Orthodox Faith - Volume I - Doctrine and Scripture - The Bible - Word of God
By “auto pen” you mean God wasn’t dictating to them word for word, right?
 
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Daniel9v9

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Wow, thanks! That’s a lot to digest. I’ll have to reread it tomorrow, but bottom line, is the point that Luke did not make an error after all, and there’s nothing to worry about with regards to this?

Yeah, there's nothing to worry about. Even if it may be a challenging passage, that doesn't automatically mean that Luke is wrong, as many Higher Critics claim. It just means we don't have all the relevant data. But we can be confident that Luke did, because he was closer to the events than we are, and more importantly, he was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and we can trust God.
 
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FaithT

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Yeah, there's nothing to worry about. Even if it may be a challenging passage, that doesn't automatically mean that Luke is wrong, as many Higher Critics claim. It just means we don't have all the relevant data. But we can be confident that Luke did, because he was closer to the events than we are, and more importantly, he was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and we can trust God.
Also, I think he was known to exhaustively research things and was considered to be a very good historian. Correct?
 
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HTacianas

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By “auto pen” you mean God wasn’t dictating to them word for word, right?

That's what I mean, yes. The bible is "the word of God in the words of men". Men are by nature imperfect and subject to making mistakes.
 
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Daniel9v9

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Also, I think he was known to exhaustively research things and was considered to be a very good historian. Correct?

Yes, that's right. Luke is very sophisticated.
 
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JAL

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By “auto pen” you mean God wasn’t dictating to them word for word, right?

I agree with what @HTacianas said. Millard J. Erickson wrote the most popular Systematic Theology textbook of the last century, as far as I know. His stance, as I recall, is that the Bible is inerrant in all essential matters of doctrine.

In my view, Direct Revelation is EVERYTHING (1 Corinthians 14:1). The (revelatory) Inward Witness of the Holy Spirit instills our faith in Christ AND our confidence in the Bible. Therefore, since God never needed the Bible to be perfect, He probably loosened His grip upon the writers to allow them to freely express themselves somewhat, even at the risk of trivial errors.

If you expect the Bible to be perfect on all possible historical details, you might be setting yourself up for disappointment. Don't put that heavy burden of anxiety on yourself.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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But since the Gospels are inspired by the Holy Spirit shouldn’t it be 100% correct?

Y'know, I never could quite get into that assumption... and in fact, it's probably best to let that "definition" of the Bible (or of the Gospels) go bye-bye. There are other definitions that are more fitting and don't push us to expect too much in the wrong way or to trust in the Bible if there are badly thought out reasons for doing so. No, we want realistic, good reasons to trust the Bible (or the Gospels).

Additionally, changing your definitional expectations about the Bible overall can take some of the weight off of expecting Luke's Gospel to be some kind of Supernatural Masterpiece of Impeccable Literature. It's not and it doesn't have to be in order to be a special piece of Christian literature, even an inspired one.

Since you've voiced a concern about the trustworthiness of the Bible, you might want to invest some time in realizing that there are various definitions of Inspiration among Christians where the Bible is their concern. For your convenience, I'll briefly present in a very summarized (and revisable) way here some of those other definitions via what I've adapted from Don Thorsen and Keith H. Reeves in their book, What Christians Believe About the Bible (2012):

1) Dictation (or Mechanical) Theory - God dictated exact words for certain people to write.

2) Verbal, Plenary Theory - God inspired the words which each writer chose to use.

3) Dynamic Theory - A dynamic is involved between the Holy Spirit and the writers; the bible is God's Ideas using human abilities.

4) Concursive Theory - Like the Dynamic Theory, but maintains that the dynamic is a mystery which can't be fully explained.

5) Sacramental Theory - Generally, God uses physical things and people to signify His meanings to and through His people.

6) Partial, Limited or Degrees Theory - Some parts of the Bible may be directly influenced by God; other parts are people's attempts to represent what they have experienced or learned about God.

7) Dialectical Theory - The biblical authors write under the influence of God in and through the experience of their lives.

8) Humanized Theory - Just as it sounds: humans write what they think God is and thinks.​

And I, myself, would add

9) Existential, Critical Theory - We find the Bible in this world, such as it is from the past, with its claims of divine influence; and we have to wrestle with these claims as best as we can, and we do so now, in THIS current life and time.​

The upshot, too, is that, historically speaking, Josephus shouldn't be seen as impeccable either. Cuz he isn't. But, hey! That's the nature of ancient historical writing and we have to take the good, the bad and the ugly all in one clump. Of course, we still have to dumpster dive through issues like Quirinius and the Census in our attempts to give it all clarification, but that's assuming that it ever really can be. :rolleyes:
 
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Bob Crowley

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Does Luke’s claim that Jesus was born in Bethlehem at the time of Quirinius’ census match the historical record? | GotQuestions.org


We were discussing this on another sub forum and thought this one would be more appropriate. This offers an explanation for the seemingly discrepancy in Luke.

The other forum was "One Bread, One Body" (viz. Catholic) under Christian Communities.

I know because I contributed a couple of posts to it. As I said in that sub-forum I'd never bothered to research the topic before, but after reading some of the references there, I think there's enough circumstantial evidence to be reasonably confident Luke was correct.

Has the Catholic Church responded to the apparent implausibility of a census as described in Luke?

The Census that Brought Our Lord to Bethlehem

Does Luke Contradict Himself on When Jesus Was Born?

The Enrollment of Jesus’ Birth – Jimmy Akin

Q&A with Fr John Flader: Research vindicates Gospels

Quirinius and the Census – Was Luke Wrong?

Quirinius: An Archaeological Biography
 
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FaithT

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The other forum was "One Bread, One Body" (viz. Catholic) under Christian Communities.

I know because I contributed a couple of posts to it. As I said in that sub-forum I'd never bothered to research the topic before, but after reading some of the references there, I think there's enough circumstantial evidence to be reasonably confident Luke was correct.

Has the Catholic Church responded to the apparent implausibility of a census as described in Luke?

The Census that Brought Our Lord to Bethlehem

Does Luke Contradict Himself on When Jesus Was Born?

The Enrollment of Jesus’ Birth – Jimmy Akin

Q&A with Fr John Flader: Research vindicates Gospels

Quirinius and the Census – Was Luke Wrong?

Quirinius: An Archaeological Biography
Ok but for the sake of argument, let’s sayLuke was wrong, then what, with regards to the RCC?
 
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