Quick Question

I KNOW that it isn't meant as a derogative term MOST of the time. However, it originally WAS and then there is the point of the 22 Eastern Rites ALONG with the One Latin (or Roman) Rite and then there's the point of it NOT being the name... I wish RC or RCC DIDN'T bother me, but if I'm honest with myself, it does since it is SO inaccurate. I'm sorry.

I thank the several folks who have taken the time to express concern that use of "Roman Catholic" to describe the Church might be offensive to those of us of the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches, who are Catholics - but not Roman. To be honest with you, most of us wouldn't find the usage offensive/exclusionary simply because most non-Catholics, in using it, are intending to refer to the only Catholics of whom they are aware - those of the West. If we get involved in a discussion in which it is used, our tendency is merely to point out that there are Catholics who aren't Roman.

A few other comments:

The original usage by the Anglicans was not so much derogatory as it was distinguishing - as someone pointed out, they intended to make the point between those who adhered to Rome, versus themselves. It has become associated in folks' minds with the term "Romish", which was never intended to be anything other than derogatory, but there really was no connection between the two words, other than their common root - "Rom".

It really isn't a derisive term any longer, because no one would understand it as expressing a sneer. Those who deride Catholics for any of the usual reasons just use "Catholic" with a sneer in their voice - adding "Roman" doesn't add any particular measure of disrespect or derisiveness (with the exception of one Old Catholic Church, which has a peculiarly anti-Roman cast to its literature, unique among its genre, as most Old Catholics are fully respectful of the Church of Rome, despite their disagreements with it).

That it is used by so-called "independent" Catholics, Old Catholics, Polish National Catholics, etc, to distinguish the Church headquartered in Rome from themselves should generally be looked at positively by Catholics, as it better assures that folks will not be confused between the two.

The argument that no one should be allowed to decide what Catholics are called - other than Catholics - fails as an argument because Catholics are not united or of a common mind as to what to call themselves*. There are individual Vatican documents that use the phrase "Roman Catholic" and you would be amazed to discover how many Catholic canonical jurisdictions in America (and possibly elsewhere) are legally incorporated as the "Roman Catholic Archbishop of ______, a corporation sole". Since none of us is empowered to speak for the Church and I don't see Rome issuing any press releases decrying the usage, I'd suggest that the passage into common usage of the term as a descriptor of Western or Latin Catholics united with Rome should be accepted for what it is - to use common parlance "it is what it is". (The makers of Kleenex have long since given up the battle over the generic usage of their product name to describe all facial tissues - they decided that the ongoing public usage of the product name was free advertising.)

*Nor do we obey the rule in speaking of others. The preference of Mormons, for example, is to be called Latter-Day Saints. We (and others), however, have a decided tendency to label them as "Mormons". So, if we wish to hang our hats on that argument, "What's good for the goose ..."

Finally, THERE ARE NOT 22 RITES IN THE CATHOLIC EAST AND ORIENT -
THERE ARE 6 RITES AND 22 CHURCHES IN THE CATHOLIC EAST AND ORIENT -

PLEASE READ BEGINNING WITH POST #28 IN THE THREAD Switching Rites ON THIS FORUM TO UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RITES AND CHURCHES.

Sorry for shouting, I could post the same explanation again, but it gets tiresome and repetitious and wastes bandwidth to do so.

Many years,

Neil

Steph said:

some people find it offensive, some don't. simple as that

Click to expand...

True, but to answer the question...No, it is not the "proper" name of the Catholic Church.

I've seen some parishes call themselves "Roman Catholic" lately. I'm hoping this refers more to the Roman Church itself and isn't referring to the greater Catholic Church as "Roman".

Irish Melkite said:

There are individual Vatican documents that use the phrase "Roman Catholic" and you would be amazed to discover how many Catholic canonical jurisdictions in America (and possibly elsewhere) are legally incorporated as the "Roman Catholic Archbishop of ______, a corporation sole".

Click to expand...

Maybe that's another reason the term doesn't bother me, I am in the "Roman Catholic Diocese of Portland". I also find the addresses and phone numbers of other Catholic Churches in my area in the Yellow Pages under the heading of "Roman Catholic Churches". Never thought I was anything but Roman Catholic.

SorensScapegoat said:

Dear Greg,

And pray, to what do the Protestants refer to when they recite the Niceed Creed? "... We believe in one holy Catholic and Apolostolic Church" ?

Just curious.

--S

Click to expand...

Good question!

I know the Anglicans generally see themselves as Catholic, in spite of the way we see them (formally), but as for any of the others...

I believe that officially the C and A are not capitalized in the Creed and that's how they get by - by emphasizing the "universal" rather than the "governed by Rome" aspect of "catholic".

Greg

Irish Melkite said:

Finally, THERE ARE NOT 22 RITES IN THE CATHOLIC EAST AND ORIENT -
THERE ARE 6 RITES AND 22 CHURCHES IN THE CATHOLIC EAST AND ORIENT -

Click to expand...

Six???

I knew there were 22 Churches but thought there were 14 rites? I could have sworn that's what the Byzantine websites say...

Greg

King of the Nations said:

Six???

I knew there were 22 Churches but thought there were 14 rites? I could have sworn that's what the Byzantine websites say...

Click to expand...

Greg,

There are 14 Byzantine Catholic Churches, Eastern Catholic Churches that are of the Byzantine Rite. If you know of a Byzantine website that states there are 14 Rites, please point it out to me, so that it's webmaster and I can have a serious discussion of the difference between Rite and Church.

Many years,

Neil

Irish Melkite said:

There are individual Vatican documents that use the phrase "Roman Catholic" and you would be amazed to discover how many Catholic canonical jurisdictions in America (and possibly elsewhere) are legally incorporated as the "Roman Catholic Archbishop of ______, a corporation sole".

Click to expand...

This is indeed a great irony -- a Church which holds itself as "catholic" (universal) and yet which substantiates by its very name ("Roman") that it is sectarian.

As to the issue of corporation soles, not only have the archbishops incorporated their offices as corporation soles, but so have many bishops (see http://hushmoney.org/corporate-sole_facts.htm )

The discrepancy between our Theology and the legal names of various Catholic legal entities is superficial. It derives from the prudential injunction: "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's...."