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Quick Question for Young Earth Creationists

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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Hey.

Hope you all don't mind me asking an honest question in here.

I was just curious- do any of the young earth creationists in here adopted the framework interpretation of Genesis 1? That is, are there any non-six day young earth creationists around?

For that matter, are there any non-six day (and by definition, non-day-age) old earth folks who nevertheless believe that the Genesis 2 and 3 accounts are absolutely historical factual?

Just curious, since I'm pretty sure St. Augustine was a non-six day young earth creationist.
 

Chief117

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Wow, I've never heard of these possibilities. Personally, I'm a literal 6-Day YEC.

But as a point of semantics, I don't see how Day-Agers are ruled out by definition of being a non-6-day Old Earth folk. The Day Age might as well break with the term "day" because they are basically are not "6-day" creationists. Yeah...just thought this sounded a bit strange.
 
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busterdog

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Curiosity is one of the best bases for a real dialogue. So, the question is appreciated.

Here is a part of an email for a professor at Berkeley who is a creationst and friend of Lambert Dolphin.

First off, there is a true problem with the young/old universe debate. But what one needs to consider is the very nature of time itself. Time is only one of the nine dimension that make up hyperspace. Einstein's Special Theory correctly predicted timespace, or space and time being physical properties to the universe. If you think about this, time is completely relative. If space is stretched or shrunk, time thus responds. Also, depending on one's location (next to a black hole for instance), time either speeds up or slows down, so how can we know "absolute" time? Only if we are given it from outside the timespace continuum. I believe this is what God does in Exodus 20:11 (arguably the most literal section of the entire Bible). He gives us absolute time. During the original expansion (Big Bang if your a scientist, or Big Stretch if you use God's language) of the universe, the Laws that we now know where being constructed as well and thus there is no relative basis for time. To us, it looks to be around 13.7 billion years old. This is assuming time hasn't changed since the beginning. Since there is no way to be sure of this absolutely, we assume it to be the case and thus arrive at 13.7 BY. God sets up an absolute clock for us in the rotation of the earth around the sun and if we use His clock, then the universe is a few thousand years. Two different clocks, relative and absolute, two different time frames, relative and absolute.
Similar thoughts have been offered by Gerald Schroeder.

http://www.geraldschroeder.com/

While I respect these men, I just think the argument forces too much on the text of Gen. 1-2. The question becomes, from what perspective was Gen. 1-2 spoken? It seems to me that it appears to be spoken from that portion of the creation itself where the whole rest of the book is set.
 
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keyarch

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I was just curious- do any of the young earth creationists in here adopted the framework interpretation of Genesis 1? That is, are there any non-six day young earth creationists around? For that matter, are there any non-six day (and by definition, non-day-age) old earth folks who nevertheless believe that the Genesis 2 and 3 accounts are absolutely historical factual?
Answers.com said:
"Creationism" =
Belief in the literal interpretation of the account of the creation of the universe and of all living things related in the Bible.
So by definition, the literal interpretation of "days" is 24 hour days as understood by the author and demonstrated by the sentence structure.
However, not everyone who holds to a literal six 24 hour day creation week would be called a "Young Earth Creationist". In other words, there are models that interpret Gen. 1:1-2 as the creation of the universe and primitive earth some unknown time before the first "day" which starts with "light" (on the surface that was previously dark) in Gen. 1:3. This model has been defined as "Young Biological Creation" and "Two-Stage Creation". (Not to be confused with the Gap Theory).
 
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FallingWaters

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Hey.

Hope you all don't mind me asking an honest question in here.

I was just curious- do any of the young earth creationists in here adopted the framework interpretation of Genesis 1? That is, are there any non-six day young earth creationists around?

For that matter, are there any non-six day (and by definition, non-day-age) old earth folks who nevertheless believe that the Genesis 2 and 3 accounts are absolutely historical factual?

Just curious, since I'm pretty sure St. Augustine was a non-six day young earth creationist.
Wouldn't it be rather difficult for the earth to be only 6,000 years old AND not made in 6 days?
 
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FallingWaters

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Hey.

Hope you all don't mind me asking an honest question in here.

I was just curious- do any of the young earth creationists in here adopted the framework interpretation of Genesis 1? That is, are there any non-six day young earth creationists around?

For that matter, are there any non-six day (and by definition, non-day-age) old earth folks who nevertheless believe that the Genesis 2 and 3 accounts are absolutely historical factual?

Just curious, since I'm pretty sure St. Augustine was a non-six day young earth creationist.
How long did Augustine think it took?
 
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busterdog

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How long did Augustine think it took?

Augustine spiritualized many things and this as well, if memory serves. This post-Constantine. The Church had by this time forgotten IMHO the importance of a literal nation of Israel. The millenium was Kingdom Now concept. Lots of stuff started getting mixed up when Roman offialdom coopted aspects of Christianity, arguably for its own purposes. Augustine apparently thought that Rome was the City of God. Well, I could think of a better candidate.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Wouldn't it be rather difficult for the earth to be only 6,000 years old AND not made in 6 days?

How long did Augustine think it took?

As I recall (and don't hold me to this, but I'll try and get ya'll a quote sometime soon), Augustine believed that the earth was indeed greated less than 10,000 years ago, but that the six-days themselves were not literal. So basically, God brought everything into existence pretty much all at once.
 
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FallingWaters

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As I recall (and don't hold me to this, but I'll try and get ya'll a quote sometime soon), Augustine believed that the earth was indeed greated less than 10,000 years ago, but that the six-days themselves were not literal. So basically, God brought everything into existence pretty much all at once.
Ah.
Thanks.
That's interesting.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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me said:
As I recall (and don't hold me to this, but I'll try and get ya'll a quote sometime soon), Augustine believed that the earth was indeed greated less than 10,000 years ago, but that the six-days themselves were not literal.

Found it (De Genesi ad Litteram, or, The Literal Meaning of Genesis):

Thus, in all the days of creation there is one day, and it is not to be taken in the sense of our day, which we reckon by the course of the sun; but it must have another meaning, applicable to the three days mentioned before the creation of the heavenly bodies... That day in the acount of creation, or those days that are numbered according to its recurrence, are beyond the experience and knowledge of us mortal earthbound men.

Anselm and Peter Lombard followed Augustine in this interpretation. Needless to say, they were not prompted in their exegesis by concerns for harmonizing the creation account with astrophysical cosmology.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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busterdog said:
Augustine spiritualized many things and this as well, if memory serves. This post-Constantine. The Church had by this time forgotten IMHO the importance of a literal nation of Israel. The millenium was Kingdom Now concept. Lots of stuff started getting mixed up when Roman offialdom coopted aspects of Christianity, arguably for its own purposes. Augustine apparently thought that Rome was the City of God. Well, I could think of a better candidate.

This is all incorrect. Augustine did not think Rome was the City of God, he thought Rome was representative of the City of Man/the World. Have you even read De Civitate Dei?

And you could think of a better candidate for world peace in the fourth century than the Roman Empire? How much do you know about ancient history, really? Can you name any alternative empires from the fourth century?
 
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vossler

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This is all incorrect. Augustine did not think Rome was the City of God, he thought Rome was representative of the City of Man/the World. Have you even read De Civitate Dei?

And you could think of a better candidate for world peace in the fourth century than the Roman Empire? How much do you know about ancient history, really? Can you name any alternative empires from the fourth century?
What's the purpose of this post? I mean truly can't we keep the rhetoric out in the OT. A simple question becomes a platform for a challenge, which then becomes a not so nice exchange. :sigh:

What is it with TEs, can't you guys help yourselves or what?
 
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Melethiel

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What's the purpose of this post? I mean truly can't we keep the rhetoric out in the OT. A simple question becomes a platform for a challenge, which then becomes a not so nice exchange. :sigh:

What is it with TEs, can't you guys help yourselves or what?
It's more of a Lutheran thing. Lutherans love to argue. :p
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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*Sigh*

Sorry, sorry.

I just hate seeing gross historical inaccuracies, is all.

And Mel's right. It is a Lutheran thing.

But note: Constantine didn't make Christianity the official empire of the realm. He merely legalized it and supported the church's social service functions. Christianity's 'official' status came fifty years later during the reign of Theodosius, after the disastorous reign of Julian the Apostate (sorry, that one just really bugs me, too).
 
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mark kennedy

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Hey.

Hope you all don't mind me asking an honest question in here.

I was just curious- do any of the young earth creationists in here adopted the framework interpretation of Genesis 1? That is, are there any non-six day young earth creationists around?

For that matter, are there any non-six day (and by definition, non-day-age) old earth folks who nevertheless believe that the Genesis 2 and 3 accounts are absolutely historical factual?

Just curious, since I'm pretty sure St. Augustine was a non-six day young earth creationist.

As far as I can tell, the length of the days described in Genesis were never a real issue for him. It is the normal Hebrew word for a day and on occasion used in a broader sense.

He was very clear about Adam and Eve being specially created and the question of them evolving from apes would never have occured to him.

`except inasmuch as this person [his descendant] receives his nature from his first parent, for which reason it is called the `sin of nature'' Since, ``the soul is the form and nature of the body, in respect of its essence and not in respect of its powers...the soul is the subject of original sin chiefly in respect to essence'' (Ibid. IaIIae.83.2; New Advent).​

He is spliting a theological hair there, it's not an easy one to deal with. Something physical is passed on from original sin but what that is in biological terms is something the Scriptures don't say anything about.

``whoever maintains that human nature at any period required not the second Adam for its physician, because it was not corrupted in the first Adam, is convicted as an enemy to the grace of God'' (On the Grace of Christ and on Original Sin II.34; Fathers of the Church)​

That one is crystal clear on the only theological issue, you can't reject Adam as the first created man and embrace St. Augustine's theology. Notice this is a discussion of the Fathers of the Church so here he is appealing to tradition. Elsewhere he appeals to the testimony of Scripture and he is very dogmatic about what it means to be an enemy of the grace of God.

Chapter 21.—That There Was Created at First But One Individual, and that the Human Race Was Created in Him.

Now that we have solved, as well as we could, this very difficult question about the eternal God creating new things, without any novelty of will, it is easy to see how much better it is that God was pleased to produce the human race from the one individual whom He created, than if He had originated it in several men. For as to the other animals, He created some solitary, and naturally seeking lonely places,—as the eagles, kites, lions, wolves, and such like; others gregarious, which herd together, and prefer to live in company,—as pigeons, starlings, stags, and little fallow deer, and the like: but neither class did He cause to be propagated from individuals, but called into being several at once. Man, on the other hand, whose nature was to be a mean between the angelic and bestial, He created in such sort, that if he remained in subjection to His Creator as his rightful Lord, and piously kept His commandments, he should pass into the company of the angels, and obtain, without the intervention of death, a blessed and endless immortality; but if he offended the Lord his God by a proud and disobedient use of his free will, he should become subject to death, and live as the beasts do,—the slave of appetite, and doomed to eternal punishment after death. And therefore God created only one single man, not, certainly, that he might be a solitary, bereft of all society, but that by this means the unity of society and the bond of concord might be more effectually commended to him, men being bound together not only by similarity of nature, but by family affection. And indeed He did not even create the woman that was to be given him as his wife, as he created the man, but created her out of the man, that the whole human race might derive from one man.​

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120112.htm

St. Augustine like all theologians spends a lot of time on Genesis, clearly it's a foundational text. He even says that Eve was not created in the same sense since she was taken out of Adam which clearly indicates a literal interprutation.

In fact, if what I'm getting about St. Augustine is correct he took it so literal that he considered the creation to be instantaneous. One thing is for sure, he was no old earth cosmologist and his concern about the length of days was theological. He spends a considerable amount of time on the seventh day but considered the first six to be a logical framework rather then a passage of physical time. Of course as a theologian he had bigger issues to deal with, I doubt seriously the actual length of days was of any great interest to him.
 
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mark kennedy

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What's the purpose of this post? I mean truly can't we keep the rhetoric out in the OT. A simple question becomes a platform for a challenge, which then becomes a not so nice exchange. :sigh:

What is it with TEs, can't you guys help yourselves or what?

It's a shame, you could get more Creationists to stick around if they didn't have someone hounding them all the time. It gets on my last nerve, I'm wondering if TEs should be allowed to post in here at all.

That might seem a bit harsh but I'm not seeing a lot of genuine fellowship coming out of it. It would be different if one of them had come on here to talk about the Gospel, Salvation, the ressurection or the soon return of Christ. I don't remember having ever seen one in here.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Markus6

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Vossler said:
What is it with TEs, can't you guys help yourselves or what?
There is nothing "with TEs" some of us can help ourselves, some of us can't. If you start suggesting that all TEs are alike and do the same things then you become wrong.
Mark Kennedy said:
That might seem a bit harsh but I'm not seeing a lot of genuine fellowship coming out of it. It would be different if one of them had come on here to talk about the Gospel, Salvation, the ressurection or the soon return of Christ

"Fellowship posts" are a slightly odd concept. Most of the TEs who read here post because they don't agree with something one of you guys has said. Which is no suprise considering we have different positions, but we need to learn that this is not the place to address what you say. I understand this may make you feel quite harrassed, when we invade the one place you're meant to be able to get a breather from us so on behalf of my origins theology position (or at least the ones that agree with me) we're very sorry.

Please don't think that because we don't post about "
Gospel, Salvation, the ressurection" we aren't concerned with them. We are but this isn't the place to discuss them, this place is for you guys to discuss your beliefs on the origins of the world and for us to post fellowship posts like this:


I love you guys :hug: , in a totally non-gay, brother/sister-in-christ kinda way :thumbsup: .
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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mark kennedy said:
As far as I can tell, the length of the days described in Genesis were never a real issue for him. It is the normal Hebrew word for a day and on occasion used in a broader sense.

It think yom means day, too. I agree. Theistic evolutionists aren't day-age creationists, you know.

mark kennedy said:
He was very clear about Adam and Eve being specially created and the question of them evolving from apes would never have occured to him.

`except inasmuch as this person [his descendant] receives his nature from his first parent, for which reason it is called the `sin of nature'' Since, ``the soul is the form and nature of the body, in respect of its essence and not in respect of its powers...the soul is the subject of original sin chiefly in respect to essence'' (Ibid. IaIIae.83.2; New Advent).​
He is spliting a theological hair there, it's not an easy one to deal with. Something physical is passed on from original sin but what that is in biological terms is something the Scriptures don't say anything about.

``whoever maintains that human nature at any period required not the second Adam for its physician, because it was not corrupted in the first Adam, is convicted as an enemy to the grace of God'' (On the Grace of Christ and on Original Sin II.34; Fathers of the Church)​
That one is crystal clear on the only theological issue, you can't reject Adam as the first created man and embrace St. Augustine's theology. Notice this is a discussion of the Fathers of the Church so here he is appealing to tradition. Elsewhere he appeals to the testimony of Scripture and he is very dogmatic about what it means to be an enemy of the grace of God.

Chapter 21.—That There Was Created at First But One Individual, and that the Human Race Was Created in Him.​


Now that we have solved, as well as we could, this very difficult question about the eternal God creating new things, without any novelty of will, it is easy to see how much better it is that God was pleased to produce the human race from the one individual whom He created, than if He had originated it in several men. For as to the other animals, He created some solitary, and naturally seeking lonely places,—as the eagles, kites, lions, wolves, and such like; others gregarious, which herd together, and prefer to live in company,—as pigeons, starlings, stags, and little fallow deer, and the like: but neither class did He cause to be propagated from individuals, but called into being several at once. Man, on the other hand, whose nature was to be a mean between the angelic and bestial, He created in such sort, that if he remained in subjection to His Creator as his rightful Lord, and piously kept His commandments, he should pass into the company of the angels, and obtain, without the intervention of death, a blessed and endless immortality; but if he offended the Lord his God by a proud and disobedient use of his free will, he should become subject to death, and live as the beasts do,—the slave of appetite, and doomed to eternal punishment after death. And therefore God created only one single man, not, certainly, that he might be a solitary, bereft of all society, but that by this means the unity of society and the bond of concord might be more effectually commended to him, men being bound together not only by similarity of nature, but by family affection. And indeed He did not even create the woman that was to be given him as his wife, as he created the man, but created her out of the man, that the whole human race might derive from one man.​
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120112.htm

St. Augustine like all theologians spends a lot of time on Genesis, clearly it's a foundational text. He even says that Eve was not created in the same sense since she was taken out of Adam which clearly indicates a literal interprutation.

In fact, if what I'm getting about St. Augustine is correct he took it so literal that he considered the creation to be instantaneous. One thing is for sure, he was no old earth cosmologist and his concern about the length of days was theological. He spends a considerable amount of time on the seventh day but considered the first six to be a logical framework rather then a passage of physical time. Of course as a theologian he had bigger issues to deal with, I doubt seriously the actual length of days was of any great interest to him.

Ok. That's all I said- Augustine was a young earth creationist, but non-six day. He also believed in the special creation of Adam and Eve.

I'm not debating any of this. I don't want to debate. I just came in here to ask a question about non-six day young earth creationism, and give an example (Augustine).

mark kennedy said:
That might seem a bit harsh but I'm not seeing a lot of genuine fellowship coming out of it. It would be different if one of them had come on here to talk about the Gospel, Salvation, the ressurection or the soon return of Christ. I don't remember having ever seen one in here.

I talk about the gospel of Jesus Christ in the appropriate forums. If you would like to calmly discuss our shared thoughts on the varieties of soteriology, I'd love to.

It's just that this happens to be origins theology, and I was curious about something pertaining to origins theology- namely, if any of my YEC brothers and sisters in Christ believed in a non-six day YEC, like St. Augustine.

And then I flew off the handle when I saw several gross historical inaccuracies regarding the writings of St. Augustine and the Christianization of the Roman Empire. Again, my apologies- I have no excuse for acting so harshly, and my only explanation from reacting at all was that I didn't mean to debate, but only to correct a gross historical error.
 
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