questions

Marjorie · Mar 10, 2005

jkotinek is right on the mark (soooo not a fan of this 'take away the rep button' trend! haha)-- the reason God gives in Deuteronomy for the ban on images of Him is that no one has ever seen Him; He is not material. But Christ became man, and became material, so displaying HIM (and those in Him) is different-- matter has become spirit-bearing by the judgment of God, matter is now able to convey the glory of God, as Christ is "the icon of the invisible God" (Col. 1:15.)

In IC XC,
Marjorie

Eusebios · Mar 10, 2005

Hello Blackhawk and welcome to TAW! Your polite asking of questions and reception of answers in such a wise and humble manner is refreshing. Another wonderful example of a thread that displays the true spirit of CF.
In Xp,
Eusebios.

Xpycoctomos · Mar 10, 2005

Marjorie said:
jkotinek is right on the mark (soooo not a fan of this 'take away the rep button' trend! haha)-- the reason God gives in Deuteronomy for the ban on images of Him is that no one has ever seen Him; He is not material. But Christ became man, and became material, so displaying HIM (and those in Him) is different-- matter has become spirit-bearing by the judgment of God, matter is now able to convey the glory of God, as Christ is "the icon of the invisible God" (Col. 1:15.)

In IC XC,
Marjorie

That's reallly interesting. It's also interesting to note that a few chapters later (after God instructs them never to make graven images) He gives them instructions on how to build the Ark of the Covenant and orders them to include images of angels and some animals... so I think also that the commandment about graven images must be understood in it's context (building idols like golden galves). So, it seems to me that this is a commandment against idol worshipping... not just plain "making graven images.

John

Philip · Mar 10, 2005

Xpycoctomos said:
so I think also that the commandment about graven images must be understood in it's context (building idols like golden galves). So, it seems to me that this is a commandment against idol worshipping... not just plain "making graven images.

If memory serves, the LXX uses the Greek word for 'idol'. Thus, the translators recognized that the commandment was against idols, not images.

countrymouse33ad · Mar 10, 2005

It's also interesting to note that a few chapters later (after God instructs them never to make graven images) He gives them instructions on how to build the Ark of the Covenant and orders them to include images of angels and some animals...

I think it's also interesting to note the phrasing of the commandment against idols: [emphasis mine]

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. [Douay-Rheims]

I believe the NKJV wording is "for yourself" or "for yourselves." Perhaps this is an injunction against individuals taking authority into their own hands where mode of worship is concerned. They were also not to offer sacrifices anywhere else but at the Tablernacle, and later, in Jerusalem at the Temple. Suppose you or I took it upon ourselves to write our own icons to venerate at home, or started praying in front of our nativity sets. That might be akin to breaking this commandment.

prodromos · Mar 11, 2005

Blackhawk said:
Does this mean that even if mankind did not sin that Jesus would of become incarnate? Note though I am not making God's plan contingent on man. I am just making a hypothetical here.

Because of sin, death entered the world so it became a necessary part of the incarnation for Christ to die, and by doing so defeat death. If Adam and Eve had been obedient to God, there would be no necessity for death to be defeated, so the incarnation would not have recquired Christ's death and resurrection as well.

John

Blackhawk · Mar 11, 2005

prodromos said:
Because of sin, death entered the world so it became a necessary part of the incarnation for Christ to die, and by doing so defeat death. If Adam and Eve had been obedient to God, there would be no necessity for death to be defeated, so the incarnation would not have recquired Christ's death and resurrection as well.

John

I do not have time to respond to all of the replies. (But I will) On this point though is it that the incarnation would of occurred or would not of occurred? What is the Orthodox thought on the subject. I have always heard exactly as you have stated John however Ireaneus and others seem to state that the incarnation would of served a purpose even if A & E would not of sinned. That A & E were babies and had to grow in their relationship to God even before they sinned. That God was and is a shepherd and we always have to grow. That our lack of maturity, at least in a sense, is not predicated on our disobedience.

So what is the official Orthodox belief on this subject?

Philip · Mar 11, 2005

Blackhawk said:
I do not have time to respond to all of the replies. (But I will) On this point though is it that the incarnation would of occurred or would not of occurred? What is the Orthodox thought on the subject. I have always heard exactly as you have stated John however Ireaneus and others seem to state that the incarnation would of served a purpose even if A & E would not of sinned.

There is no 'official' belief on the matter, but I think the general consensus is that the Incarnation would have occured.

That A & E were babies and had to grow in their relationship to God even before they sinned. That God was and is a shepherd and we always have to grow. That our lack of maturity, at least in a sense, is not predicated on our disobedience.

I think this is correct. Man was not created in perfect communion with God, but on the path to it. Our lack of maturity allowed (but did not force) the Fall to occur.

Today, we sin because we are mortal. I think in the West, this is seen the other way around -- we are mortal because we sin.

Mary of Bethany · Mar 11, 2005

Blackhawk said:
I will have to look for an Orthodox church in the Ft Worth area. Is there anything I should know before attending? Any special dress code or something else that would make it so I do not interuprt worship and also get the most from it myself as I worship God.

This makes a lot of sense to me. I think it demonstrates a side of salvation that is often not thought of in the circles that I participate in.

Hi, Blackhawk! I'm a native of Fort Worth, now living in the Dallas area. There are 2 parishes on the SW side of Fort Worth, and one close to downtown (I think). There are also some parishes in the mid-cities area that I can tell you about if those would be closer for you. Surprisingly, I don't think there's a parish in the Arlington area. But I'd be glad to help you find one if you want.

Mary

Marjorie · Mar 11, 2005

Blackhawk said:
I do not have time to respond to all of the replies. (But I will) On this point though is it that the incarnation would of occurred or would not of occurred? What is the Orthodox thought on the subject. I have always heard exactly as you have stated John however Ireaneus and others seem to state that the incarnation would of served a purpose even if A & E would not of sinned. That A & E were babies and had to grow in their relationship to God even before they sinned. That God was and is a shepherd and we always have to grow. That our lack of maturity, at least in a sense, is not predicated on our disobedience.

So what is the official Orthodox belief on this subject?

There is no official Orthodox belief on the subject... that's the answer for a lot of things. The first answer is that there really is no 'might have been' when it comes to a God who exists outside of time. But, yes, many people have said that if it were somehow possible for there to be no Fall, there would still be an Incarnation. But this is impossible for us to imagine, as impossible as it is for two-dimensional creatures to imagine a cube or a blind person to understand the color red. It's just outside of our understanding-- another form of existence. But the Incarnation was God's plan from the foundation of the earth.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

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