Questions on the Sabbath...

freeindeed2 · Jan 2, 2008

I found these questions by Christians about the SDA version of Sabbath keeping that I would like to see answered here, if you're willing.

I've numbered them and you can just answer the questions with the same corresponding number.

1. Where is the word "Sabbath" first mentioned in the Bible? What does it say?

2. Where is the word "Sabbath" last mentioned in the Bible? What does it say?

3. When did the fourth commandment go into effect?

4. If the Holy Spirit writes the Ten Commandments on people's hearts in the New Covenant, as Adventism teaches, then why do numerous Christians fail to have the fourth commandment written on their hearts?

5. Will Sabbath be observed in heaven?

6. What will be used in heaven to determine when to observe the Sabbath?

7. Is Sabbath observed in heaven now?

8. Do the angel's observe Sabbath?

9. Was Sabbath observed in heaven before the earth was created?

10. What are the Biblical rules for keeping the Sabbath?

11. Does God keep the Sabbath at the same time as His faithful?

12. What were the rules for keeping it at creation?

13. If I came to your church next Saturday, to persuade others that all you need is Jesus, would I be keeping the Sabbath?

14. What is the church discipline in your church for breaking the Sabbath?

15. Do you believe that when the sun sets on Friday evening and you begin keeping Sabbath, that God and the angels begin also to keep the same time, and thus the heavenly hosts and you folks on earth keep the same identical time together?

16. What does the Sabbath point forward to?

17. Must I keep the Sabbath in order to be saved?

18. Does the Bible allow Christians to worship God on any day other than the 7th day?

JonMiller · Jan 2, 2008

A lot of your statements don't make sense. Like you are saying "What is the sound of the Mona Lisa?" (I know that you can make it make sense in non-standard systems, I am just giving an example in standard systems of thought)

1. Where is the word "Sabbath" first mentioned in the Bible? What does it say?

I don't know. I expect it was first mentioned in Exodus, and was about the 10 commandments.

2. Where is the word "Sabbath" last mentioned in the Bible? What does it say?

I don't know. I suspect that it was in relation to the Christians doing something after Christ's ressurection.

3. When did the fourth commandment go into effect?

I don't understand what you mean by 'go into effect'.

4. If the Holy Spirit writes the Ten Commandments on people's hearts in the New Covenant, as Adventism teaches, then why do numerous Christians fail to have the fourth commandment written on their hearts?

People do the wrong thing all the time, sometimes not even knowing what the right thing is. So this is not a reasonable question. I think that (some) don't udnerstand what 'written on their hearts' means. Additionally, there are a number of people who beleive in sunday keeping as much as SDAs beleive in Sabbath keeping (even so far as making it a burden similarly to the old school jews like some SDAs do).

5. Will Sabbath be observed in heaven?

I don't know. I suspect that every day will be Sabbath as we practice it here.

6. What will be used in heaven to determine when to observe the Sabbath?

What would be used on Mars to determine when Sabbath is? How about in a different solar system? I think that there is a strong possibility if Christ doesn't return (or we don't destroy ourselves) in another 500 years that we won't exist only in this solar system anymore.

7. Is Sabbath observed in heaven now?

I don't know.

8. Do the angel's observe Sabbath?

I don't know.

9. Was Sabbath observed in heaven before the earth was created?

I don't know. We are lacking intenral documents or communications from other intelligences. (this is a reason why a lot of your questions are not answerable)

10. What are the Biblical rules for keeping the Sabbath?

Keep it Holy. Don't work.

11. Does God keep the Sabbath at the same time as His faithful?

I don't understand this "God keep the Sabbath".

12. What were the rules for keeping it at creation?

I don't know (and once more, I don't see how we would know).

13. If I came to your church next Saturday, to persuade others that all you need is Jesus, would I be keeping the Sabbath?

That depends, would you be telling them to act against their conscience?

14. What is the church discipline in your church for breaking the Sabbath?

I don't know of any. I have talked to the elders about the fact I go to the gym/etc (Argued really). I haven't faced any censorship. I have told other elders that I drink and watch porn (And am trying to quit watching porn), no censorship there either. That was all on my part just wanting to engage in discussion with people with more experience (conversations were started by me).

15. Do you believe that when the sun sets on Friday evening and you begin keeping Sabbath, that God and the angels begin also to keep the same time, and thus the heavenly hosts and you folks on earth keep the same identical time together?

Once more, these statements don't make sense.

16. What does the Sabbath point forward to?

Huh?

17. Must I keep the Sabbath in order to be saved?

No.

18. Does the Bible allow Christians to worship God on any day other than the 7th day?

Yeah. I don't see anywhere where we are punished for worshiping God.

JM

freeindeed2 · Jan 2, 2008

JonMiller said:
A lot of your statements don't make sense. Like you are saying "What is the sound of the Mona Lisa?" (I know that you can make it make sense in non-standard systems, I am just giving an example in standard systems of thought)

They're not my statements. And maybe the misunderstanding comes from the different use of terminology between SDA's and Christianity...

1. Where is the word "Sabbath" first mentioned in the Bible? What does it say?

I don't know. I expect it was first mentioned in Exodus, and was about the 10 commandments.

2. Where is the word "Sabbath" last mentioned in the Bible? What does it say?

I don't know. I suspect that it was in relation to the Christians doing something after Christ's ressurection.

3. When did the fourth commandment go into effect?

I don't understand what you mean by 'go into effect'.

When was it 'enacted', 'commanded'? When did it 'go into effect'?

4. If the Holy Spirit writes the Ten Commandments on people's hearts in the New Covenant, as Adventism teaches, then why do numerous Christians fail to have the fourth commandment written on their hearts?

People do the wrong thing all the time, sometimes not even knowing what the right thing is. So this is not a reasonable question. I think that (some) don't udnerstand what 'written on their hearts' means. Additionally, there are a number of people who beleive in sunday keeping as much as SDAs beleive in Sabbath keeping (even so far as making it a burden similarly to the old school jews like some SDAs do).

Those are few and far between. Why doesn't the Holy Spirit convict the larger body of Christ of the Jewish Sabbath?

5. Will Sabbath be observed in heaven?

I don't know. I suspect that every day will be Sabbath as we practice it here.

Really? That's an interesting statement. Most SDA's wouldn't make a statement like that.

6. What will be used in heaven to determine when to observe the Sabbath?

What would be used on Mars to determine when Sabbath is? How about in a different solar system? I think that there is a strong possibility if Christ doesn't return (or we don't destroy ourselves) in another 500 years that we won't exist only in this solar system anymore.

Still if the Sabbath created for mankind on the basis of the Earth's rotation around the sun, is 'eternal', then the entire universe must operate on the Earth's rotation around its closest star, thus making the Earth the true center of the Universe (or the Sun the center!!!).

7. Is Sabbath observed in heaven now?

I don't know.

Is it as eternal as God?

8. Do the angel's observe Sabbath?

I don't know.

Is it as eternal as God?

9. Was Sabbath observed in heaven before the earth was created?

I don't know. We are lacking intenral documents or communications from other intelligences. (this is a reason why a lot of your questions are not answerable)

SDAism claims it is as eternal as God himself (the eternal, character and will of God, LAW!!!).

10. What are the Biblical rules for keeping the Sabbath?

Keep it Holy. Don't work.

What does the Bible say?

11. Does God keep the Sabbath at the same time as His faithful?

I don't understand this "God keep the Sabbath".

SDAism makes the claim that the covenant made with Israel (10 commandments) are the very character and will of God (ETERNAL!). Does God keep the Sabbath (even though it was MADE for man)?

12. What were the rules for keeping it at creation?

I don't know (and once more, I don't see how we would know).

If it's eternal, as SDAism claims, what were the rules for keeping it at creation?

At least you're admitting it's NOT found in Scripture!

13. If I came to your church next Saturday, to persuade others that all you need is Jesus, would I be keeping the Sabbath?

That depends, would you be telling them to act against their conscience?

That wasn't the question. Would I be keeping the Sabbath by teaching others that ALL THEY NEED is Jesus?

14. What is the church discipline in your church for breaking the Sabbath?

I don't know of any. I have talked to the elders about the fact I go to the gym/etc (Argued really). I haven't faced any censorship. I have told other elders that I drink and watch porn (And am trying to quit watching porn), no censorship there either. That was all on my part just wanting to engage in discussion with people with more experience (conversations were started by me).

The Bible's disciplinary measure is DEATH! Just ask the guy who was picking up sticks!

15. Do you believe that when the sun sets on Friday evening and you begin keeping Sabbath, that God and the angels begin also to keep the same time, and thus the heavenly hosts and you folks on earth keep the same identical time together?

Once more, these statements don't make sense.

I believe this has more to do with the Earth's rotation, the International Date Line, and whether God operates on our imaginary division of time. While SDA's are 'doing' their best to keep the Sabbath in one hemisphere, it is a completely DIFFERENT DAY in the other.

16. What does the Sabbath point forward to?

Huh?

Did the 'Sabbath rest' point forward to anything (anyone) else?

17. Must I keep the Sabbath in order to be saved?

No.

What about at the end of time after the world-wide Sunday laws are passed? Is worshiping God on Sunday NOT the Mark of the Beast? SDAism says it is.

18. Does the Bible allow Christians to worship God on any day other than the 7th day?

Yeah. I don't see anywhere where we are punished for worshiping God.

The 'final test of loyalty to God' is the Sabbath (according to SDAism). It is the 'separating wall' between the lost and the saved. It is the Seal of God (according to SDAism). By that standard we should NEVER worship God together on the first day of the week (didn't he create ALL days? where did the pagans come in?).

Thanks for answering!

In Christ alone...

JonMiller · Jan 3, 2008

I think that you see that I differ from SDAism about the Sabbath on many points. I similarly have an issue with abstract thinking with them.

JM

freeindeed2 · Jan 3, 2008

JonMiller said:
I think that you see that I differ from SDAism about the Sabbath on many points. I similarly have an issue with abstract thinking with them.

JM

I think you're right (check your rep!). While 'abstract' can be good, it isn't necessarily 'right' (or wrong!). It's abstract. But I don't think the covenant God made with Israel (including its sign - the Sabbath) vs. the new covenant (through Christ and NOT LIKE the old covenant) is 'abstract'.

I appreciate our discussion and hope you'll continue to post here.

In Christ alone...

NightEternal · Jan 3, 2008

Okay Free, just because I like you I'm gonna take the time and have a crack at your questions!

1. Where is the word "Sabbath" first mentioned in the Bible? What does it say?

Exodus 16:23

And he said, This is what the Lord has said, Tomorrow is a day of rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord: what has to be cooked may be cooked; and what is over, put on one side to be kept till the morning.

2. Where is the word "Sabbath" last mentioned in the Bible? What does it say?

Colossians 2:16

For this reason let no man be your judge in any question of food or drink or feast days or new moons or Sabbaths:

3. When did the fourth commandment go into effect?

The Sabbath was in effect unofficially before the commandments were given:

Exodus 16:23

And he said, This is what the Lord has said, Tomorrow is a day of rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord: what has to be cooked may be cooked; and what is over, put on one side to be kept till the morning.

But, officially, it went into effect and was commanded in commandment form here:

Exodus 20:10

But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; on that day you are to do no work, you or your son or your daughter, your man-servant or your woman-servant, your cattle or the man from a strange country who is living among you:

4. If the Holy Spirit writes the Ten Commandments on people's hearts in the New Covenant, as Adventism teaches, then why do numerous Christians fail to have the fourth commandment written on their hearts?

I assume it's because they do not feel the Sabbath is a part of the new covenant.

5. Will Sabbath be observed in heaven?

I don't believe so. I know the text speaking about observing one New Moon to another in Heaven is used to bolster this claim, but I think that is not a correct interpretation of the passage.

6. What will be used in heaven to determine when to observe the Sabbath?

It does pose a problem, doesn't it? Especially since there will be no night and hence no 24 hour periods in Heaven!

God will be the Light in Heaven. There will be no sun and no way to mark days, weeks, months or years.

7. Is Sabbath observed in heaven now?

I don't believe so.

8. Do the angel's observe Sabbath?

I don't believe so.

9. Was Sabbath observed in heaven before the earth was created?

I don't believe so.

10. What are the Biblical rules for keeping the Sabbath?

Exodus 20:10

But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; on that day you are to do no work, you or your son or your daughter, your man-servant or your woman-servant, your cattle or the man from a strange country who is living among you:

11. Does God keep the Sabbath at the same time as His faithful?

He is God. He does not need to rest. It is human beings who need the physical and spiritual benefits of the Sabbath.

12. What were the rules for keeping it at creation?

I don't believe it was instituted at creation so it was not being kept. God rested to symbolize the completed and finished work of His creation and foreshadowed the Rest which was to come in the form of Christ as well as the finished work of His atonement.

13. If I came to your church next Saturday, to persuade others that all you need is Jesus, would I be keeping the Sabbath?

No human being can 'keep' the Sabbath perfectly in letter and in spirit. Only Jesus, our Sabbath Rest, was able to do this. If we as New Testament Christians attempt to observe the Sabbath right down to the letter (as the Jews did) the way it was meant to be properly kept, we would also be obligated to keep all 613 (or whatever the number is) laws as well. ALL of them, to the letter.

The law only brings us condemnation and death. It is the ministration in stone which kills acording to Paul, which is why Christ met the demands of the law in verity and in all its fullness on our behalf. He did it so we would not have to. It's about HIM not us.

So, no, you would not be 'keeping' anything. You would be evangelizing.

14. What is the church discipline in your church for breaking the Sabbath?

According to the SDA Church Manual, a member can face church discipline and even disfellowshipping for breaking the Sabbath. Any church officer found in violation of the Sabbath is to be removed from thier position immediately and placed under church censure.

But according to the Bible, it should be the death penalty by stoning.

15. Do you believe that when the sun sets on Friday evening and you begin keeping Sabbath, that God and the angels begin also to keep the same time, and thus the heavenly hosts and you folks on earth keep the same identical time together?

No, I don't believe that. The Sabbath is for our benefit, not spiritual beings who do not feel stress and are not in need of spiritual and physical regeneration. Furthermore, unless there are 24 hour periods and a way to discern dates and time in Heaven, I don't see how that is possible.

16. What does the Sabbath point forward to?

It points forward to our True Sabbath Rest, Jesus Christ. It's all, totally, 100% completely about Him! We find rest in Him from our works and attempts to earn our salvation.

'Come unto Me you who are heavy laden with your religiosity and with trying to earn your way into Heaven and I will give you rest.'

It's about Him and what He has already done, not about us and what we 'suppose' or 'think' we can do.

We cannot add to the work of justification, we cannot 'help' Him in the plan of salvation. He has sealed, justified, sanctified and will glorify us on the day He returns to claim His own.

We are SAVED hallelujah! No one can take us out of His hand!

17. Must I keep the Sabbath in order to be saved?

No. But TSDA's will say yes (mark of the beast, seal of God, etc.) I believe the seal of God is the Holy Spirit whereby we are sealed unto the day of redemption.

18. Does the Bible allow Christians to worship God on any day other than the 7th day?

Certainly.

capnator · Jan 3, 2008

Questions on the Sabbath...

I found these questions by Christians about the SDA version of Sabbath keeping that I would like to see answered here, if you're willing.

I've numbered them and you can just answer the questions with the same corresponding number.

1. Where is the word "Sabbath" first mentioned in the Bible? What does it say?

Ex 16:23

2. Where is the word "Sabbath" last mentioned in the Bible? What does it say?

Col 2:16

3. When did the fourth commandment go into effect?

The same time as the rest of them.

4. If the Holy Spirit writes the Ten Commandments on people's hearts in the New Covenant, as Adventism teaches, then why do numerous Christians fail to have the fourth commandment written on their hearts?

Do they have the rest?

5. Will Sabbath be observed in heaven?

Yes - Is 66:23,

6. What will be used in heaven to determine when to observe the Sabbath?

The seventh day

7. Is Sabbath observed in heaven now?

Not sure although, We have evidence of God keeping the sabbath, but none of him not keeping it.

8. Do the angel's observe Sabbath?

Not sure - The sabbath was made for man. If you say the sabbath was Created for all created beings then The sabbath was made for man still rings true. If you say the sabbath was created for all beings then it is true for God, man and angels.

9. Was Sabbath observed in heaven before the earth was created?

I don't know - God resting on the 7th day indicates the first day it was kept on this world but that doesnt prove it was the first instance of the sabbath being kept.

10. What are the Biblical rules for keeping the Sabbath?

According to the commandment

11. Does God keep the Sabbath at the same time as His faithful?

The sabbath was made for man true... BUT does that exclude it having been made for other beings? In the past God has shown us that he has, can we prove that he doesnt? We have evidence that he has though, at creation and in Jesus Christ.

12. What were the rules for keeping it at creation?

The day was set aside as blessed and holy.

13. If I came to your church next Saturday, to persuade others that all you need is Jesus, would I be keeping the Sabbath?

I have heard many sermons saying what we need is Jesus, in church, and yes on sabbath Now if someone was coming to do that with a devisive spirit then no they wouldn't would they.

14. What is the church discipline in your church for breaking the Sabbath?

I can't say that it is policed.

15. Do you believe that when the sun sets on Friday evening and you begin keeping Sabbath, that God and the angels begin also to keep the same time, and thus the heavenly hosts and you folks on earth keep the same identical time together?

Not sure.

16. What does the Sabbath point forward to?

I don't know about point forward to, but it points to a need for us to Remember our creator.

17. Must I keep the Sabbath in order to be saved?

If you become aware that God requires it of us.

18. Does the Bible allow Christians to worship God on any day other than the 7th day?

Of course we are free to worship God anytime and any place. That in no way takes any obligation away from us to remember the sabbath.

19. If the Ten Commandments were nailed to the cross then how come 9 of them survived that ordeal

JonMiller · Jan 3, 2008

freeindeed2 said:
I think you're right (check your rep!). While 'abstract' can be good, it isn't necessarily 'right' (or wrong!). It's abstract. But I don't think the covenant God made with Israel (including its sign - the Sabbath) vs. the new covenant (through Christ and NOT LIKE the old covenant) is 'abstract'.

I appreciate our discussion and hope you'll continue to post here.

In Christ alone...

The Sabbath being only the sign of the old covenant is one solution to the question. It isn't the only solution. Is it the best solution?

I don't think that you (or many Trads) accept the possiblility that many interpretations can make sense of scripture and that the discussion is about what fits best rather then that some are made up or lies.

I think that by looking at concepts and ideas (abstract things) that the best interpretation can be found.

JM

freeindeed2 · Jan 3, 2008

JonMiller said:
The Sabbath being only the sign of the old covenant is one solution to the question. It isn't the only solution. Is it the best solution?

I don't think that you (or many Trads) accept the possiblility that many interpretations can make sense of scripture and that the discussion is about what fits best rather then that some are made up or lies.

I think that by looking at concepts and ideas (abstract things) that the best interpretation can be found.

JM

Bottom line. The Sabbath was the sign of the old covenant and was listed in the covenant God made with Israel. Either the Sabbath is binding on the Christian church - despite no command or mention of it being so in the instructions given to the early church - or it's not binding. No matter how 'abstract' one wants to get with interpreting Scripture, it doesn't change what it was or what it is (or isn't).

JonMiller · Jan 3, 2008

freeindeed2 said:
Bottom line. The Sabbath was the sign of the old covenant and was listed in the covenant God made with Israel. Either the Sabbath is binding on the Christian church - despite no command or mention of it being so in the instructions given to the early church - or it's not binding. No matter how 'abstract' one wants to get with interpreting Scripture, it doesn't change what it was or what it is (or isn't).

Were the 10 commandments part of a covenant with Israel? We would both say yes. BTW, it certainly appears to me as if there are more than one covanant with Israel.

Now, when Christ is asked about the commandments, what does He say?

And what direction is given to Christians?

Additionally, what is the meaning of "law"? What is the meaning of "sin"?

Now, I agree, it might be reasonable to say that the Sabbath was only a sign of the covenant between God and the jews in the desert. The wording and references doesn't lead me to think that this is the case though.

JM

freeindeed2 · Jan 3, 2008

JonMiller said:
Were the 10 commandments part of a covenant with Israel? We would both say yes.

Yes, they were the very heart of the covenant. They were carried around in the ark of the covenant. The Bible clearly tells us that the covenant God made with Israel was the 10 commandments.

BTW, it certainly appears to me as if there are more than one covanant with Israel.

Are you making reference to the new covenant made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah?

Or are you saying there were more covenants made than these (old and new) with Israel? There's also the Abrahamic covenant, the Noaaic Covenant, the Adamic Covenant, the Davidic Covenant.

Now, when Christ is asked about the commandments, what does He say?

Who asked him? Were they under the old covenant themselves? Ultimately, after demonstrating that they didn't keep them, he said sell all you have and come follow me.

And what direction is given to Christians?

To cast off the bondwoman and her son, that the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life, that we are no longer under the schoolmaster/tutor, that Christ has satisfied the requirements of the law for us, that we must die to the law and be joined to another - Christ himself, that the law is a ministry of death and condemnation written in letters engraved on stone, that there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.

Additionally, what is the meaning of "law"?

The law incorporated at its heart the 10 commandments, as well as the other 603 commands, as well as all the writings of Moses, the prophets, and the Psalms.

What is the meaning of "sin"?

Whatever is not of faith is sin. Lawlessness is sin.

Now, I agree, it might be reasonable to say that the Sabbath was only a sign of the covenant between God and the jews in the desert.

It was also a command in the heart of the covenant made with Israel.

The wording and references doesn't lead me to think that this is the case though.

What else was it?

thecountrydoc · Jan 3, 2008

VACATIONS OVER!!! IT'S TIME to GO BACK TO SCHOOL!!!

It seems that the time has come for a complete and through study of the Sabbath, the Ten Commandments, and all related topics and subjects.

If this idea makes sense to you then I would like your input as to how best to conduct this study.

I should also say that Jon's comments about "abstract thinking" is somthing that is all too often overlooked. Our Creator gave us a brain with which to think and use logic. Without the mind there could be NO communication with our Creator God. When studying the Scriptures logic must be used or there will be little understanding.

I awaite you response.

Respectfully,
Doc

JonMiller · Jan 3, 2008

freeindeed2 said:
Y

To cast off the bondwoman and her son, that the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life, that we are no longer under the schoolmaster/tutor, that Christ has satisfied the requirements of the law for us, that we must die to the law and be joined to another - Christ himself, that the law is a ministry of death and condemnation written in letters engraved on stone, that there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.

Could you tell me what things mean rather then repeating words? Or perhaps the issue is one of language (between us)?

The law incorporated at its heart the 10 commandments, as well as the other 603 commands, as well as all the writings of Moses, the prophets, and the Psalms.

That is what I would talk about when talking about law with people? With learned men? Your definition is too limited.

Whatever is not of faith is sin. Lawlessness is sin.

Do angels have faith?

It was also a command in the heart of the covenant made with Israel.

Was "Thou shall not kill" also at the heart of the covenant with Israel?

What else was it?

Part of loving God?

Jon Miller

freeindeed2 · Jan 3, 2008

JonMiller said:
Could you tell me what things mean rather then repeating words? Or perhaps the issue is one of language (between us)?

Would you like to go through each chapter(s) that those come from in Scripture?

As far as 'repeating words' goes, I don't have any original thoughts. I trust the Bible and will continue to repeat it often. Are you not wanting to hear the Bible?

That is what I would talk about when talking about law with people? With learned men?

Absolutely! Go ask a rabbi what the law is. I have.

Your definition is too limited.

What do you say the law is? How is my answer limited? It includes the whole bulk of the OT and, as I've been told by my Jewish friends, is how the Jews would describe the law. I'll be interested in your description. I've offered mine.

Do angels have faith?

Sure.

Was "Thou shall not kill" also at the heart of the covenant with Israel?

It absolutely was. ALL of them were. Why?

Part of loving God?

Then Israel must not have loved God, for they perpetually broke the covenant, the Sabbath included, to the point where God told them to stop keeping it.

13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
I cannot bear your evil assemblies. Is. 1

But God never commanded them to 'stop' obeying a moral command.

RioLion · Jan 3, 2008

*9. Was Sabbath observed in heaven before the earth was created? *

Really stupid question!

There is really nothing in scripture that anyone has ever found that would establish the keeping of a sabbath prior to creation of the earth. Did God create heaven in 6 days & rest on the 7th?

You need a sun to determine days and does heaven have a sun and days?

The question is totally ludricrous and something promoted by those who have turned the Sabbath into some kind of idol much like the Pharisees of Christ's day.

freeindeed2 · Jan 3, 2008

RioLion said:
*9. Was Sabbath observed in heaven before the earth was created? *

There is really nothing in scripture that I can find that would establish the keeping of a sabbath. Frankly, you need a sun to determine days and does heaven have a sun and days? The question is totally ludricrous and something promoted by those who have turned the Sabbath into some kind of idol much like the Pharisees of Christ's day.

You are correct that there is nothing in Scripture. The question is not ludicrous in light of the fact that some sabbatarian groups claim that the Sabbath is as eternal as God himself (and then go on to say that it was MADE for man).

In Christ alone...

JonMiller · Jan 3, 2008

I would begin when thinking about law using something like this:

law

(lô) Pronunciation Key
n.

A rule of conduct or procedure established by custom, agreement, or authority.
1. The body of rules and principles governing the affairs of a community and enforced by a political authority; a legal system: international law.
2. The condition of social order and justice created by adherence to such a system: a breakdown of law and civilized behavior.
3. The system of judicial administration giving effect to the laws of a community: All citizens are equal before the law.
4. Legal action or proceedings; litigation: submit a dispute to law.
5. An impromptu or extralegal system of justice substituted for established judicial procedure: frontier law.
6. An agency or agent responsible for enforcing the law. Often used with the: "The law . . . stormed out of the woods as the vessel was being relieved of her cargo" (Sid Moody).
7. Informal A police officer. Often used with the.
8. The science and study of law; jurisprudence.
9. Knowledge of law.
10. The profession of an attorney.
11. The body of principles or precepts held to express the divine will, especially as revealed in the Bible.
12. The first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures.
13. A rule or custom generally established in a particular domain: the unwritten laws of good sportsmanship.
14. A way of life: the law of the jungle.
15. A statement describing a relationship observed to be invariable between or among phenomena for all cases in which the specified conditions are met: the law of gravity.
16. A generalization based on consistent experience or results: the law of supply and demand.
A set of rules or principles dealing with a specific area of a legal system: tax law; criminal law.
A piece of enacted legislation.
1. The system of judicial administration giving effect to the laws of a community: All citizens are equal before the law.
2. Legal action or proceedings; litigation: submit a dispute to law.
3. An impromptu or extralegal system of justice substituted for established judicial procedure: frontier law.
4. An agency or agent responsible for enforcing the law. Often used with the: "The law . . . stormed out of the woods as the vessel was being relieved of her cargo" (Sid Moody).
5. Informal A police officer. Often used with the.
6. The science and study of law; jurisprudence.
7. Knowledge of law.
8. The profession of an attorney.
9. The body of principles or precepts held to express the divine will, especially as revealed in the Bible.
10. The first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures.
11. A rule or custom generally established in a particular domain: the unwritten laws of good sportsmanship.
12. A way of life: the law of the jungle.
13. A statement describing a relationship observed to be invariable between or among phenomena for all cases in which the specified conditions are met: the law of gravity.
14. A generalization based on consistent experience or results: the law of supply and demand.
1. An agency or agent responsible for enforcing the law. Often used with the: "The law . . . stormed out of the woods as the vessel was being relieved of her cargo" (Sid Moody).
2. Informal A police officer. Often used with the.
3. The science and study of law; jurisprudence.
4. Knowledge of law.
5. The profession of an attorney.
6. The body of principles or precepts held to express the divine will, especially as revealed in the Bible.
7. The first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures.
8. A rule or custom generally established in a particular domain: the unwritten laws of good sportsmanship.
9. A way of life: the law of the jungle.
10. A statement describing a relationship observed to be invariable between or among phenomena for all cases in which the specified conditions are met: the law of gravity.
11. A generalization based on consistent experience or results: the law of supply and demand.
1. The science and study of law; jurisprudence.
2. Knowledge of law.
3. The profession of an attorney.
4. The body of principles or precepts held to express the divine will, especially as revealed in the Bible.
5. The first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures.
6. A rule or custom generally established in a particular domain: the unwritten laws of good sportsmanship.
7. A way of life: the law of the jungle.
8. A statement describing a relationship observed to be invariable between or among phenomena for all cases in which the specified conditions are met: the law of gravity.
9. A generalization based on consistent experience or results: the law of supply and demand.
Something, such as an order or a dictum, having absolute or unquestioned authority: The commander's word was law.
Law
1. The body of principles or precepts held to express the divine will, especially as revealed in the Bible.
2. The first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures.
3. A rule or custom generally established in a particular domain: the unwritten laws of good sportsmanship.
4. A way of life: the law of the jungle.
5. A statement describing a relationship observed to be invariable between or among phenomena for all cases in which the specified conditions are met: the law of gravity.
6. A generalization based on consistent experience or results: the law of supply and demand.
A code of principles based on morality, conscience, or nature.
1. A rule or custom generally established in a particular domain: the unwritten laws of good sportsmanship.
2. A way of life: the law of the jungle.
3. A statement describing a relationship observed to be invariable between or among phenomena for all cases in which the specified conditions are met: the law of gravity.
4. A generalization based on consistent experience or results: the law of supply and demand.
1. A statement describing a relationship observed to be invariable between or among phenomena for all cases in which the specified conditions are met: the law of gravity.
2. A generalization based on consistent experience or results: the law of supply and demand.
Mathematics A general principle or rule that is assumed or that has been proven to hold between expressions.
A principle of organization, procedure, or technique: the laws of grammar; the laws of visual perspective.

If we don't talk about what law is we end up with narrow definitions then are true or even what the authors of the Bible intended. You certainly don't think that they knew nothing else than what was written in the scriptures, do you?

Nothing that we have seen of humankind in recorded history exists in a vacuum. Contained within this definition are abstractions of statements (including those found within the Bible). Next it should be simple to come up with what abstractions are useful in discussing the law in the Bible.

We have minds... they are able to comprehend and think at a much higher level than written word.

JM

freeindeed2 · Jan 3, 2008

JonMiller said:
I would begin when thinking about law using something like this:

law

(lô) Pronunciation Key
n.

A rule of conduct or procedure established by custom, agreement, or authority.

The body of rules and principles governing the affairs of a community and enforced by a political authority; a legal system: international law.

The condition of social order and justice created by adherence to such a system: a breakdown of law and civilized behavior.

The system of judicial administration giving effect to the laws of a community: All citizens are equal before the law.

Legal action or proceedings; litigation: submit a dispute to law.

An impromptu or extralegal system of justice substituted for established judicial procedure: frontier law.

An agency or agent responsible for enforcing the law. Often used with the: "The law . . . stormed out of the woods as the vessel was being relieved of her cargo" (Sid Moody).

Informal A police officer. Often used with the.

The science and study of law; jurisprudence.

Knowledge of law.

The profession of an attorney.

The body of principles or precepts held to express the divine will, especially as revealed in the Bible.

The first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures.

A rule or custom generally established in a particular domain: the unwritten laws of good sportsmanship.

A way of life: the law of the jungle.

A statement describing a relationship observed to be invariable between or among phenomena for all cases in which the specified conditions are met: the law of gravity.

A generalization based on consistent experience or results: the law of supply and demand.

A set of rules or principles dealing with a specific area of a legal system: tax law; criminal law.

A piece of enacted legislation.

The system of judicial administration giving effect to the laws of a community: All citizens are equal before the law.

Legal action or proceedings; litigation: submit a dispute to law.

An impromptu or extralegal system of justice substituted for established judicial procedure: frontier law.

An agency or agent responsible for enforcing the law. Often used with the: "The law . . . stormed out of the woods as the vessel was being relieved of her cargo" (Sid Moody).

Informal A police officer. Often used with the.

The science and study of law; jurisprudence.

Knowledge of law.

The profession of an attorney.

The body of principles or precepts held to express the divine will, especially as revealed in the Bible.

The first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures.

A rule or custom generally established in a particular domain: the unwritten laws of good sportsmanship.

A way of life: the law of the jungle.

A statement describing a relationship observed to be invariable between or among phenomena for all cases in which the specified conditions are met: the law of gravity.

A generalization based on consistent experience or results: the law of supply and demand.

An agency or agent responsible for enforcing the law. Often used with the: "The law . . . stormed out of the woods as the vessel was being relieved of her cargo" (Sid Moody).

Informal A police officer. Often used with the.

The science and study of law; jurisprudence.

Knowledge of law.

The profession of an attorney.

The body of principles or precepts held to express the divine will, especially as revealed in the Bible.

The first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures.

A rule or custom generally established in a particular domain: the unwritten laws of good sportsmanship.

A way of life: the law of the jungle.

A statement describing a relationship observed to be invariable between or among phenomena for all cases in which the specified conditions are met: the law of gravity.

A generalization based on consistent experience or results: the law of supply and demand.

The science and study of law; jurisprudence.

Knowledge of law.

The profession of an attorney.

The body of principles or precepts held to express the divine will, especially as revealed in the Bible.

The first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures.

A rule or custom generally established in a particular domain: the unwritten laws of good sportsmanship.

A way of life: the law of the jungle.

A statement describing a relationship observed to be invariable between or among phenomena for all cases in which the specified conditions are met: the law of gravity.

A generalization based on consistent experience or results: the law of supply and demand.

Something, such as an order or a dictum, having absolute or unquestioned authority: The commander's word was law.

Law

The body of principles or precepts held to express the divine will, especially as revealed in the Bible.

The first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures.

A rule or custom generally established in a particular domain: the unwritten laws of good sportsmanship.

A way of life: the law of the jungle.

A statement describing a relationship observed to be invariable between or among phenomena for all cases in which the specified conditions are met: the law of gravity.

A generalization based on consistent experience or results: the law of supply and demand.

A code of principles based on morality, conscience, or nature.

A rule or custom generally established in a particular domain: the unwritten laws of good sportsmanship.

A way of life: the law of the jungle.

A statement describing a relationship observed to be invariable between or among phenomena for all cases in which the specified conditions are met: the law of gravity.

A generalization based on consistent experience or results: the law of supply and demand.

A statement describing a relationship observed to be invariable between or among phenomena for all cases in which the specified conditions are met: the law of gravity.

A generalization based on consistent experience or results: the law of supply and demand.

Mathematics A general principle or rule that is assumed or that has been proven to hold between expressions.

A principle of organization, procedure, or technique: the laws of grammar; the laws of visual perspective.

If we don't talk about what law is we end up with narrow definitions then are true or even what the authors of the Bible intended. You certainly don't think that they knew nothing else than what was written in the scriptures, do you?

Nothing that we have seen of humankind in recorded history exists in a vacuum.

JM

So the Jews turned to a dictionary in our time to define God's law? I could have pulled Webster's definition and posted it. You don't think Jewish Rabbi's defined it very well for me? Maybe I should refer them to an English dictionary to define what is spiritual to them.

RC_NewProtestants · Jan 3, 2008

thecountrydoc said:
VACATIONS OVER!!! IT'S TIME to GO BACK TO SCHOOL!!!

It seems that the time has come for a complete and through study of the Sabbath, the Ten Commandments, and all related topics and subjects.

If this idea makes sense to you then I would like your input as to how best to conduct this study.

I should also say that Jon's comments about "abstract thinking" is somthing that is all too often overlooked. Our Creator gave us a brain with which to think and use logic. Without the mind there could be NO communication with our Creator God. When studying the Scriptures logic must be used or there will be little understanding.

I awaite you response.

Respectfully,
Doc

I suggested earlier that you start a thread based on a refutation of this article. I think that would be a good place to start:

As for Doc's intended response it might be nice if he read the following article and responded to it: Sabbath Refutations

JonMiller · Jan 3, 2008

freeindeed2 said:
W
Sure.

Explain?

It absolutely was. ALL of them were. Why?

Isn't it included with the commands that Christ said in the new testament? Given not as part of a covenant, but rather as a direction?

Then Israel must not have loved God

I think that was a central issue/problem of Israel.

You are too stuck on covenants and a specific law to understand what law means. Therefore you are left in the nonsensical position of saying that Christ didn't really mean it when He directed people to follow the law. Or that Paul didn't really mean it when he commended the law and directed people to follow it. Or that other authors of the new testament didn't tell people to follow the law.

JM

Questions on the Sabbath...

In Christ We Are FREE!

Senior Veteran

In Christ We Are FREE!

Senior Veteran

In Christ We Are FREE!

Evangelical SDA

Senior Member

Senior Veteran

In Christ We Are FREE!

Senior Veteran

In Christ We Are FREE!

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

In Christ We Are FREE!

RioLion

Guest

In Christ We Are FREE!

Senior Veteran

In Christ We Are FREE!

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency