Questions on homosexuality

Nietzsche · Sep 22, 2004

What ever Ananel an Volos say on this subject is what i would say, but id like to add this question.

In the future when homosexuality is excpeted completly. Do you want to look back and say "hey i hated homosexuals back then"

ladybrett1974 · Sep 22, 2004

Volos said:
As a gay man and a psychotherapist let me tell you that there is no evidence to suggest that Homosexuality is a mental illness. In 1974 the American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality form the diagnostic and statistical manual because there existed and to this day there exists no evidence that homosexuality is a mental illness.[/color]

That is ridiculous. I canNOT believe that homosexuality was diagnosed as a mental illness until 1974!!!

PUH-LEASE!

I have been going to a "diverse" congregation lately and I love it.

I have NO IDEA why people get so hung up about what other people do sexually. It's a personal issue. I'm not being snippy....I mean, I really honestly do not understand why people get so worked up about it when there are many other addressable issues (homelessness, war, poverty) to spend time and money on. (Irony note....I just got worked up about it)

Sorry, I haven't even read the "rules" about this. If I broke them, I sincerely SINCERELY apologize.

Carico · Sep 22, 2004

ladybrett1974 said:
Volos said:

As a gay man and a psychotherapist let me tell you that there is no evidence to suggest that Homosexuality is a mental illness. In 1974 the American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality form the diagnostic and statistical manual because there existed and to this day there exists no evidence that homosexuality is a mental illness.[/color]

That is ridiculous. I canNOT believe that homosexuality was diagnosed as a mental illness until 1974!!!

PUH-LEASE!

I have been going to a "diverse" congregation lately and I love it.

I have NO IDEA why people get so hung up about what other people do sexually. It's a personal issue. I'm not being snippy....I mean, I really honestly do not understand why people get so worked up about it when there are many other addressable issues (homelessness, war, poverty) to spend time and money on. (Irony note....I just got worked up about it)

Sorry, I haven't even read the "rules" about this. If I broke them, I sincerely SINCERELY apologize.

Click to expand...

The problem is, that when sex come before ANY other value, including what God or anybody else thinks about their behavior, then self-gratification becomes their supreme value. It doesn't matter how their "children" are affected by it, whether they risk disease, give their partner disease or misuse sex in the manner in which it was created. All that matters is that they derive sexual pleasure from whatever source gives it to them. This is supreme selfishness that is done at the expense their own souls and the souls of their partners. i do Not see what is healthy about it in any way. But even whether or not it's healthy matters to homosexuals, just so they can keep on doing it. that is classified as a sexual addiction.

Treasure the Questions · Sep 23, 2004

Western society in general is far too preoccupied with sex. Maybe it's because advertisers are pushing it to sell their products. Any other ideas why?

This can't make it easy for anyone to remain celebate. Is there anything the church can do to stop this preoccupation, or to support those who are considering a celebate life?

Karin

Chrono Traveler · Sep 23, 2004

Carico said:
The problem is, that when sex come before ANY other value, including what God or anybody else thinks about their behavior, then self-gratification becomes their supreme value. It doesn't matter how their "children" are affected by it, whether they risk disease, give their partner disease or misuse sex in the manner in which it was created. All that matters is that they derive sexual pleasure from whatever source gives it to them. This is supreme selfishness that is done at the expense their own souls and the souls of their partners. i do Not see what is healthy about it in any way. But even whether or not it's healthy matters to homosexuals, just so they can keep on doing it. that is classified as a sexual addiction.

well, you are clearly not homosexual so you can not know what they feel, and why they are the way they are...I am not, so I say, its their life, its their way of being happy....so let them

mpshiel · Sep 23, 2004

Carico said:
The problem is, that when sex come before ANY other value, including what God or anybody else thinks about their behavior, then self-gratification becomes their supreme value.

I completely and totally agree. A person who has this attitude has a problem, probably a psychological one known as sexual addiction (though there is no specific criteria for this sub genres do exist) but it has been determined that same sex attraction and relationships is NOT a form of sexual addiction

http://www.sexualrecovery.com/resources/articles/homosexuality.php

Of course, hypersexuality can also be a case of a symptom of a physical illness, such as the mania phase of Bipolar I or leisons on the brain such as Kluver-Bucy Syndrome.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Kluver-Bucy syndrome

But I agree, if a person wants to be a Christian and truely believes that it is wrong to engage in same-sex relationships then that would be a problem. But as it is God who looks at the heart, I for one would not be making assumptions on what a person's motivations are.

It doesn't matter how their "children" are affected by it, whether they risk disease, give their partner disease or misuse sex in the manner in which it was created.

I must conclude you are talking about same sex couples here as you start with "thier children". Again, this is a matter of assuming about another heart. Beyond the issue that it is hard for me to imagine nor have you demonstrated proof that for some reason a same sex partnership having spend thousands in order to have AI or some other way to have a child will simply abandon it due to thier addiction to sex. In examining the ability to provide a loving environment and foster care, only two states which includes Florida will not let same sex couples engage in long term (permanent) foster care (which says that 48 states think same sex couples can "affect" children positively), and recently in conservative Florida, a judge looking at a case in which a gay male couple were fighting to keep the two girls given to them in foster care were successful becasue ""I'm going to personally thank Dad and Daddy here, for in their way, stopping the cycle of abuse," Sullivan said. She even suggested the state use the men to train other foster parents. "It's not just love, it's love, experience, background, intelligence. They seem to have it all,"

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/09/09/Northpinellas/Gay_dads_get_daughter.shtml

Again every other assertion is about a person's heart so I cannot comment except that any person who knowing gives thier partner a terminal disease does not truely love that person; regardless of whether that is heterosexual (as it is in Africa and growing in the US) or homosexual.

"misuse sex" is again a very subjective term. Especially when you consider that the Catholic denominations considers ALL non procreative sex to be a "misuse" of sex. So are you chastising people who use a condom, people who touch or women on the pill?

http://www.womenpriests.org/body/price.htm

All that matters is that they derive sexual pleasure from whatever source gives it to them. This is supreme selfishness that is done at the expense their own souls and the souls of their partners. i do Not see what is healthy about it in any way. But even whether or not it's healthy matters to homosexuals, just so they can keep on doing it. that is classified as a sexual addiction.

Well, if a person simply had to have sex, period - yes that would probably be a form of nymphomania or other addiction (though again the A.P.A. does not have a conclusive definition for merely "sexual addiction".

Though same sex couples have not demonstrated this addiction. Indeed the joke about lesbians couples is "bed death" where the longer you stay together the less sex you have. Though it is noted that this occurs in significant amounts of all long term couples regardless of mix. Research however has shown that while lesbians kiss the most they have sex the least frequently. Hardly an example of "just so they can keep on doing it."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesbian

I understand your subjective response to the issue but niether research, phychology or the legal system support your broad assertions. It would appear that you are under a misunderstanding of what exactly constitutes a relationship, certainly one between members of the same sex. Homosexuality does not preclude good parenting, the ability to love, the ability for commitment or the ability to appear before God with a sincere heart.

firefromheaven · Sep 23, 2004

Lev: 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.

Carico · Sep 23, 2004

Chrono Traveler said:
well, you are clearly not homosexual so you can not know what they feel, and why they are the way they are...I am not, so I say, its their life, its their way of being happy....so let them

How are their feelings any different than anyone else who's sexually attracted to another human being? Lust is lust, pure and simple. I got news for you, NONE of us can help our sins! we are all just as trapped in them as homosexuals. That's why the ONLY solution to the sin problemis forgiveness!! But unfortunately, homosexuals can never receive forgiveness because they don't admit it's a sin in the first place! Your attitudes toward them also will keep them from receiving forgiveness. Very sad ineed.

mpshiel · Sep 23, 2004

Carico said:
How are their feelings any different than anyone else who's sexually attracted to another human being? Lust is lust, pure and simple. I got news for you, NONE of us can help our sins! we are all just as trapped in them as homosexuals. That's why the ONLY solution to the sin problemis forgiveness!! But unfortunately, homosexuals can never receive forgiveness because they don't admit it's a sin in the first place! Your attitudes toward them also will keep them from receiving forgiveness. Very sad ineed.

This was in response to "you are clearly not homosexual so you can not know what they feel, and why they are the way they are..."

You seem to be making an assertion that thier feelings are the same as anyone who is attracted to another human being....lust. And lust is a sin ergo they are sinning (as by implication of your statement is every human being who is attracted to another).

I am not sure what your definition of love versus lust is as eros isn't acutally used in the New Testament. Here is a good place to test out some ideas on love:

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DefinitionOfLove

And one which I think applies between two people. While it is not as succinct as Jesus when he said, "To lay down one's life" it does get the impression that your life is truely no longer your own.

When two people are truly in loveits not a question of what anyone else thinks. It is how they complete the other. How they fill all voids in the others life. It is not about material goods or how compatible you are with someone. Being in love with someone is being happy going to bed with the other the last thought on your mind and the first thought when you wake up. Love does exist. When you find it, you know. You wonder how you ever did without it. It is finding that person that embodies all the things that you could ever want in a person. It is finding the exact match to the infinite number of personalities that are possible. It is finding that person that was molded for you. It is the person that has all of these different things in one entity. A Rainbow TMR

See the difficulty is that then, the song of songs shouldn't be in the bible if we accept that ANY attraction is Lust and ergo sinful. Why is a book describing the attraction and care for one toward his betrothed doing promoting "lust" and why do most theologicans see it as a parrellel between God and Isreal or Christ and the Body of the Church?

Even conservative Christian based answers can seperate between attraction and the giving in to lust either in the mind or in action

http://members.tripod.com/abednet/loveorlust.html

Then you finish by telling another person that they are the ones stopping another from getting forgiveness. Where is the biblical basis for that? I see things about stumbling blocks (Rom 14), about not judging others (Rom 2:1-4, Rom 14:6) but not about "if you don't have the right type of condemnation attitude then this other person won't be forgiven." Perhaps you could argue that Paul was telling others, you need to stop associating with the person who does this or that - but he doesn't continue to say that in doing so they have made it so the other person can't be forgiven. Could you please provide some support for such an interestly radical view.

cabbitgrrrl · Sep 23, 2004

firefromheaven said:
Lev: 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.

dost thou eat bacon? what about shrimp? crab? lobster?

Leviticus 11
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Caprice · Sep 23, 2004

Tobias66 said:
Im writing a paper for school, but I still havent decided what position I should take on the issue. I wanted to get other peoples opinions first.

Aint this such a great place to ask questions

Tobias66 said:
Do you think homosexuality is a mental illness? Should it be treated- is it even ethical to treat homosexuality?

I'm not certain of wrether it is an illness but I do believe it is a sin just as much as premarital sex / adultry / etc is and that all sins are equal in God's eyes. I'm no stranger to sin so I cannot judge a homosexual any more than I can judge myself as a fornicator.

Tobias66 said:
The thing is, it seems to me if you are going to say homosexuality is an illness, you could just as easily argue that heterosexuality is an illness, too.

I disagree with this entirely. Do you consider it natural or proper for a guy to stick his sexual organs into the rectal cavity of another male? I don't understand the reasoning behind how someone can say "it is natural." If it were natural wouldn't there be some purpose that edifies/glorifies God thru it such as procreation does?

Tobias66 said:
Why doesnt god like homosexuality? I thought about it, and it seemed like it kinda of makes sense- why wouldnt you like someone who is more like yourself?

God made humans to be man and woman, our sex organs are designed in such a manner that they fit together nicely. When a person misuses these "apliances" of our body for impure purposes, God dislikes it.

Tobias66 said:
And another thing Im confused about- can you be sexually active with the same sex and still be heterosexual? I mean, sex is sex, you dont have to love someone to do that with them. Are you only homosexual for loving someone of the same sex, or for having sex with them?

I'm not entirely sure how to answer the rest of this... I'm pretty sure my posts above clearly show my view.

Just for the record, I havn't read the rest of this thread and will do so, I just figured I'd start at the begining and work my way thru.

Chrono Traveler · Sep 23, 2004

Carico said:
How are their feelings any different than anyone else who's sexually attracted to another human being? Lust is lust, pure and simple. I got news for you, NONE of us can help our sins! we are all just as trapped in them as homosexuals. That's why the ONLY solution to the sin problemis forgiveness!! But unfortunately, homosexuals can never receive forgiveness because they don't admit it's a sin in the first place! Your attitudes toward them also will keep them from receiving forgiveness. Very sad ineed.

Do you assueme it's all just lust, cause you lust youreslf? I don't even see lust as a sin cause everyone has that feeling sometimes. I don't see "Lust is lust" eirther, is it really "just lust", to want to make love to the person you are in love with? Is it "just lust", to have a sexual attraction to someone you love?

Yes, we all can help our sins, and we can start by accepting our neighbors way of life. I'm not preventing anyone from forgiveness...I in fact find it sad that people in this world want to start conflict and hate over something like this anyway...thats whats sad...

Ananel · Sep 23, 2004

cabbitgrrrl said:
firefromheaven said:

Lev: 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.

Click to expand...

dost thou eat bacon? what about shrimp? crab? lobster?

Leviticus 11
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

To be quite precise, as is seen in the BHS, those references are to Sheqes, not To'ebah. However, if you look through the definitions of both, one refers to foods specifically in this construction and the other to practices and things. They hold almost equal weight, implying seperation, forbiddence and abhorance of God (whatever the motivation.) (pages 955 and 976-977 of Harris, Archer and Waltke's Theological Wordbook of the New Testament-Volume II. 1980. Moody Press, Chicago.).

However, to bring understanding to these passages, consider the decisions of the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 and teachings of Paul in Colossians 2 and Galatians. The Levitical Law is not held to the gentiles. It is no more.

We center on the Law of Love, Mark 12. Here we see the Moral Law of God at work.

firefromheaven · Sep 23, 2004

cabbitgrrrl said:
dost thou eat bacon? what about shrimp? crab? lobster?

Leviticus 11
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

No I don't eat bacon or crab or shrimp or lobster. Not because I don't like it but because they are bottom feeders. They are scavengers.

The point I believe you are getting at is do I do everything in the bible. No. I am a human being and I make mistakes just like everyone on earth. I do try my best to live according to God's word as he teaches me. I am not saved because of what I do only but what I believe. We have to have both working together to be saved. Faith without works are dead. We must be doers of the word and not hearers only. Even there I still make mistakes just like you would if you try to live according to the bible. It's not easy.It's a learning growing process. Some people are better at it then others. God is the judge of all and knows if I am not living according to his word to the fullest of my ability. When I can't do what He asks me to do I ask Him for help. Without him I can do nothing. We all need His help to live according to His word. God is full of love and merciful and full of grace and truth and judges with all of His character and wisdom and knowledge according to His word.Even what I say in my reply you should look in the bible to see if I'm telling you the truth. I am human and make mistakes. I try to tell you what I believe the word is saying and what God would have us do as best as I can. I am still learning just like everyone. No one has all knowledge. Only God.So what I am also saying you should check what others are telling you including me to the bible.

rnmomof7 · Sep 23, 2004

I am going to review this thread , a quick looks shows no compliance to the posting rules .

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