Questions on Calvinism and Apostasy

jonas3 said:

This is absolutely absurd, and how do you actually judge the difference between the Arminian who has not advanced in their studies verses the Arminian who is harden in his heart? By what standard do you judge? Also, would you say the same of Muslims, or Mormons, or Jehovah’s Witnesses? Are there some of them who are not, “advanced in their study of theology sufficiently?” Are there some of them who are not, “far enough advanced in the faith”? Are there, "regenerate Muslims", or "regenerate Mormons", or "regenerate Jehovah's Witnesses"?

Do you believe that all who believe in Muslimism are presently unregenerate? Recall that Muslims do not believe that Jesus is God. Now, if you are consistent you will have to answer this question with a no; however, if you are a hypocrite, then you would have to answer this question with a yes, and if you answer this question with a yes, then why do you not answer the same regarding Arminianism? It is because you do not think it is a false gospel.

Jesus said,

“A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.” – Mat 7:18.

“4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.” – Jn 10:4-5

The Holy Spirit does NOT let an individual remain ignorant of the gospel after regeneration. Immediately upon regeneration an individual is given the knowledge of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel.

“16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that BELIEVETH; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.” – Ro 1:16-17

Those who are regenerate believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ. They understand how God is just to justify the ungodly based on the work of Jesus Christ alone TOTALLY apart from the sinners efforts (Ro 3:20-28). They KNOW the true and living God of heaven. If someone professes a false gospel, such as “universal atonement”, then they do NOT know the true God of the Bible. They do NOT believe that the only difference between salvation and damnation is the work of Christ on the cross alone, because they believe that the work of Christ was for everyone in the entire world! All of God’s regenerate elect KNOW the true God, and believe the gospel.

“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” – Jn 17:3

“But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.” – Ro 6:17

"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." – 1Cor 12:3

Think carefully about that last verse.

“3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.” – 2Cor 4:3-6

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.” – 1Jn 5:20.

-jonas

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Jonas, by speaking of various cults, you are failing to differ between faiths that are altogether unchristian and faiths which are basically Christian, but ignorant of the doctrines of grace. I can't in good conscience fail to make that distinction. It is too far a stretch to link cults with any Christian denomination that proclaims Christ to be the resurrected Son of God. The work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration is really the determiner of who is and who is not a true Christian, and His regenerating work instills fulness of life, but not fulness of understanding. There are some who are babes. I can only agree with you that those who harden theri hearts against the doctrines of grace when they have been accurately informed of them are still in unbelief. An Arminian chnirian may hesitate over the doctrines of grace, may take a studious pause concerning them, but I believe that if they are truly Christian they will rejoice inwardly even if guardedly for awhile.

jonas3 said:

I absolutely believe the GOSPEL. I have NO ERROR in relation to the gospel.

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Then you have some things to learn. Chiefly, the price of pride.

I will stand before God being justified by God given FAITH, which faith professes, that God has promised to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone totally apart from the sinners efforts. I know that I am saved because of the work of Jesus Christ alone for His people alone.-jonas

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Sincerely, good for you. But if you claim you have no error, you err greatly.

jonas3 said:

I absolutely believe the GOSPEL. I have NO ERROR in relation to the gospel.

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Bob Moore said:

Sincerely, good for you. But if you claim you have no error, you err greatly.

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"Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:" - Ps 95:10 (Heb 3:10)

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God." - Mat 22:29

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." - Jn 17:3

"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost" - 2Cor 4:3



"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" - 2Th 1:8

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." - 1Jn 5:20


"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son." - 2Jn 1:9

-jonas

jonas3 said:

"Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:" - Ps 95:10 (Heb 3:10)

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God." - Mat 22:29

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." - Jn 17:3

"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost" - 2Cor 4:3

"2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." - Ro 10:2-4​

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" - 2Th 1:8

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." - 1Jn 5:20


"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son." - 2Jn 1:9

-jonas

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jonas3 said:

I absolutely believe the GOSPEL. I have NO ERROR in relation to the gospel.

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You quote all those excellent scriptures, yet you still claim that you have no error with regard to the Gospel.

Incredible.

But perhaps your choice of words was just poor, for certainly you do err with regard to the gospel.

What I DID say, which you got right 1/3 of the time, was that no Arminian is PRESENTLY saved (i.e. regenerate), which is a big difference. I am not saying that all Arminians are certainly going to hell, because Christian’s do not judge the eternal state of anyone. What I am saying is that NO Arminian is PRESENTLY saved (i.e. regenerate). In fact, NO ONE is PRESENTLY saved (i.e. regenerate) while believing in a false gospel. Look at it this way.

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What is the requirement for one to be regenerate? It is the inward work of the holy spirit as expressed through the outward action of faith in the substitutionary atonement of the cross.

I believe it is possible Arminian doctrine in its extreme may give reason to "stand in doubt" of their salvation, but it is impious to make such a dogmatic declaration...please refrain.

Bob Moore said:

But perhaps your choice of words was just poor, for certainly you do err with regard to the gospel.

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How do I err with regard to the gospel? Please share.

-jonas

jonas3 said:

How do I err with regard to the gospel? Please share.

-jonas

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Let us consider your statement that with regard to the gospel that you have NO ERROR (caps original with you).

So you pretend to perfect knowledge and performance of the gospel. The very idea is outrageous and is a clear proof of ignorance.

Bob Moore said:

Let us consider your statement that with regard to the gospel that you have NO ERROR (caps original with you).

So you pretend to perfect knowledge and performance of the gospel. The very idea is outrageous and is a clear proof of ignorance.

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So, because I say that I believe the gospel, and have no error in relation to the gospel, this is evidence that I do not believe the gospel (i.e. proof of my ignorance)? Do you have any Scriptural evidence to support this claim? Do you have any Scriptural evidence to support this notion that not all Christians believe the gospel? Also, do you have any evidence (other than circular) to prove that I actually do not believe the gospel?

Also, what do you mean by prefect, "performance of the gospel". I did not use those words. Please explain?

Last question, are saying is that you do have error in relation to the gospel?

-jonas

jonas3 said:

So, because I say that I believe the gospel, and have no error in relation to the gospel, this is evidence that I do not believe the gospel (i.e. proof of my ignorance)? Do you have any Scriptural evidence to support this claim? Do you have any Scriptural evidence to support this notion that not all Christians believe the gospel? Also, do you have any evidence (other than circular) to prove that I actually do not believe the gospel?

Also, what do you mean by prefect, "performance of the gospel". I did not use those words. Please explain?

Last question, are saying is that you do have error in relation to the gospel?

-jonas

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Talking to you is like talking to a wall. Pointless. Finis.

jonas, do you maintain that an Arminian who believes agrees they "stand before God being justified by God given faith, which faith professes, that God has promised to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone totally apart from the sinners efforts" will not be saved?

Also, do you believe that one must agree with all five soteriological points of Calvinism in this lifetime in order to be saved?

frumanchu said:

jonas, do you maintain that an Arminian who believes agrees they "stand before God being justified by God given faith, which faith professes, that God has promised to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone totally apart from the sinners efforts" will not be saved?

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Arminians do not believe this. Do I have to articulate it again?

frumanchu said:

Also, do you believe that one must agree with all five soteriological points of Calvinism in this lifetime in order to be saved?

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I never said or implied that anything was necessary for salvation. I never said that a person had to believe in anything "in order to be saved". In fact, my entire position is that true faith believes that NOTHING is required for salvation; therefore, faith by definition (i.e. belief in certain doctrines) cannot be a prerequisite for salvation. No one is saved by their soteriological understanding; however, those who are saved absolutely believe and understand the gospel, as it is written, "15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." - Mk 16:15-16. Those who are damned do not believe what? They do not believe THE GOSPEL. There are certain things that all regenerate Christians believe. Your accusation is false and hypocritical. Would you say that a person can be saved (i.e. regenerate) while believing that Jesus is not God? Now, is believing that Jesus is God necessary for salvation? No. However, do all regenerate people (i.e. Christians) believe that Jesus is God? Yes. Do you see the difference? There is a knowledge that is given to an individual immediately upon regeneration by the Holy Spirit. They are given faith, which faith professes a belief in the gospel, thus they are given a knowledge of the gospel. They are given an understanding of the true God, Jesus Christ, and they are given an understanding of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel (Ro 1:16-17), because those who are ignorant of God's righteousness are lost (Ro 10:2-3).

-jonas

jonas3 said:

Arminians do not believe this. Do I have to articulate it again?

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I know of many Arminians who believe they are justified by God-given faith and that God justifies His people based solely upon the expiation of their sins and imputation of Christ's righteousness. Now, I may disagree that they properly understand the full implications of what that entails, but it is a matter of inconsistency and not willful rejection.

I never said or implied that anything was necessary for salvation. I never said that a person had to believe in anything "in order to be saved". In fact, my entire position is that true faith believes that NOTHING is required for salvation; therefore, faith by definition (i.e. belief in certain doctrines) cannot be a prerequisite for salvation. No one is saved by their soteriological understanding; however, those who are saved absolutely believe and understand the gospel, as it is written, "15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." - Mk 16:15-16. Those who are damned do not believe what? They do not believe THE GOSPEL.

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What you seem to be saying is that faith is not in any way a cause of salvation but only an effect of it. Is this correct?

There are certain things that all regenerate Christians believe.

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I agree, but I believe you and I differ on the specifics of what those things necessarily are.

Your accusation is false and hypocritical. Would you say that a person can be saved (i.e. regenerate) while believing that Jesus is not God? Now, is believing that Jesus is God necessary for salvation? No. However, do all regenerate people (i.e. Christians) believe that Jesus is God? Yes. Do you see the difference?

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I made no accusation against you. The error you are making here is in the proper relationship of correct knowledge of essentials with salvation.

There is a knowledge that is given to an individual immediately upon regeneration by the Holy Spirit. They are given faith, which faith professes a belief in the gospel, thus they are given a knowledge of the gospel. They are given an understanding of the true God, Jesus Christ, and they are given an understanding of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel (Ro 1:16-17), because those who are ignorant of God's righteousness are lost (Ro 10:2-3).

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The error you have here is in arguing that man is saved (justified) prior to faith rather than being saved by (or through) faith. Furthermore, you are missing the point that you are claiming that all regenerate persons necessarily fully understand and profess the Reformed soteriological view as a result of their salvation, and thus the absence of full understanding and profession of the Reformed soteriological view among Arminians indicates a lack of salvation.

It appears based upon what you've said that you are incorrectly diminishing the role of faith in salvation and at the same time elevating soteriological views to the level of necessity with respect to salvation.

Do you have any Scriptural evidence to support this notion that not all Christians believe the gospel?

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Are you equating Calvinism with the gospel? Come on man, I'm as Calvinist as they get and even I won't go THAT far.

Monergism said:

Now, for apostasy:
1. If a Christian falls away from Christ, was he truly a Christian?
2. If "Yes," then this is against what Calvinists teach.
3. If "No," then was he deceived?
4. Can a reprobate have a "feel" of being a Christian, but really is not?

As this is questions for Calvinists, I only expect answers and arguments from Calvinists.

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Hello Monergism,

I did not take the time to read all the responses to your questions (time restraints), but I do want to put in my two cents.

I think the only way to rightly understand the 5 point of the five points of Calvinism is covenantally. If you read a good bit of Calvin you will see that he clearly (rightly) believed in the perseverance of the saints, but at the same time he took the warnings in the New Testament against apostasy fey seriously.

On of the reasons many Calvinist today struggle with the notion of apostasy is many Calvinists confusion the modern Baptist notion of "once saved-always saved" (OSAS) with the true Calvinist position of perseverance. I believe that is because many Calvinists have ceased to understand these things from a Covenantal perspective. We have become individualists (i.e. baptistic) in our thinking and not covenantalists (that is Reformed).

In Calvin's Strasburg Catechism for young Children in the first questions he asks the child these questions:

Teacher: My child, are you a Christian in fact as well as in name?
Child: Yes, my father.
Teacher: How is this known to you?
Child: Because I am baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

All who are baptised are in Covenant, and are part of the outward people of God. The Bible is written to these people. Are they all regenerate? No, some may be in the Church (which is the body of Christ) and therefore a branch that is connected to the true vine.

These people are covenantally attached to Christ, but if they do not persevere in faith iv they do not work out their salvation in fear and trembling they will be cut off. It was the same Old Covenant Israel.

The problem with OSAS is that it does not take the many warning of apostasy seriously, but the Calvinistic doctrine of perverance does. Perseverance is biblical OSAS is not.

Don't misunderstand me. All who are elect, before the foundation of the world, will persevere, but the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament are written to God's Covenant people. They are all, at some point, His people though many of them may not know Him in faith and if they do not come to faith and persevere in faith they will be cut off from the covenant, they will be branches broken off of the true vine (which they were attached to covenantally) and cast into the fire.

So much for my two cents on this subject.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

frumanchu said:

The error you have here is in arguing that man is saved (justified) prior to faith rather than being saved by (or through) faith.

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Prior to God's effectual call man can not possess saving faith because he is spiritually dead in sins and trespasses. Therefore, before a man can express genuine faith in any way God has already saved him. In other words, faith follows salvation. It does not precede it.

Furthermore, you are missing the point that you are claiming that all regenerate persons necessarily fully understand and profess the Reformed soteriological view as a result of their salvation, and thus the absence of full understanding and profession of the Reformed soteriological view among Arminians indicates a lack of salvation.

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Excellent. Too many people think that saving faith automatically carries with it a complete (more or less) understanding of it's nature.

It appears based upon what you've said that you are incorrectly diminishing the role of faith in salvation and at the same time elevating soteriological views to the level of necessity with respect to salvation.

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Yep. It sure looks like it.

Cajun Huguenot said:

The problem with OSAS is that it does not take the many warning of apostasy seriously, but the Calvinistic doctrine of perverance does. Perseverance is biblical OSAS is not.

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But Cajun, The two are the same thing.

Bob Moore said:

But Cajun, The two are the same thing.

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I don't think so, Bob.

Seems to me that most non-Calvinists who believe in OSAS see it that "I said a prayer and was truely repentant; therefore God won't let me fall." These folks still see faith as preceding regeneration.

Perseverance is more like "God changed me first and then I chose Him, and God never fails!!" The idea of regeneration preceding faith is essential for an acurate view of perseverance.

Bob Moore said:

But Cajun, The two are the same thing.

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Hey Bob,

Thanks for the comments, but I have to say that I'm with Grinning Dwarf on this one, and don't believe they are the same at all, though I can see how folks can make that mistake. I used to see it that way at one time also, but have come to see things differently as I've studied Covenant theology.

There are many Covenant folk who believe you are correct, but I think they are mistaken. OSAS is a ticket to easy believism. Perseverance of the Saints (PS) will will not allow for easy believism to creep or slither into the our thinking.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

Ps. Happy birthday. Or as the Cajun's say "Bon Fete."

First Bob Moore says this,

Bob Moore said:

Prior to God's effectual call man can not possess saving faith because he is spiritually dead in sins and trespasses. Therefore, before a man can express genuine faith in any way God has already saved him. In other words, faith follows salvation. It does not precede it.

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Then Bob Moore says this,

Bob Moore said:

Excellent. Too many people think that saving faith automatically carries with it a complete (more or less) understanding of it's nature.

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Are you saying that after God gives a person saving faith they still might not believe the gospel?

-jonas

jonas3 said:

Are you saying that after God gives a person saving faith they still might not believe the gospel?

-jonas

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Jonas,

Having an intellectual grasp of God's absolute sovereignty in Salvation (as well as other matters) is not equivellent to believing the Gospel.

That is the warped understanding of the Gospel that you and your small sect concocted from thin air. By Your standard (not the Scriptures), as I have pointed out before, only yall's little sect is saved.

By your standard Calvin was not saved (which y'all seem to have only recently figured out) neither were most, if not all of the other Reformers. Y'all have already said that Reformed stalwarts like AW Pink, AA Hodge, CH Spurgeon, etc..., et al,... ad nauseum:o -- were not saved unless they converted to your position as they lay dying.

Jonas, I've been reading the Church Fathers and have discovered that by your standard it does not appear that any one in the early church was saved either.

So no one in the early Church, no one in the Reformation and no post reformation Arminians and few if any post Reformation Calvinists have been saved. I guess you and your little group is all that the Lord has seen fit to save in the past 2,000 years. (Don't you see any thing wrong with this picture?)

I'm glad that after 2000 years of the Church preaching a false Gospel, you and your friends have come on the scene to finally get the truth out there.

Hummm. That sounds like the claim that every cult I have ever looked into has claimed for itself. I think you are in very bad company. You should see red flags everywhere.

Coram Deo,
Kenith