Questions from a former Christian

AformerChristian · May 22, 2007

Criada said:
True.
But surely evidence for spiritual reality must be viewed differantly to evidence for a physical reality.
We have plenty of evidence that Jesus lived as a man - but solid evidence of who He is spiritually is another thing...
What sort of evidence do you feel is required here?
I can tell you of things God has done in my life - but you can put that down to coincidence. My own experience of God can only ever be subjective, and therefore of little use to anyone determined to explain it away.
I admire your intellecual honesty - but there is more to a human than logic!

God bless you.

I did not deconvert into an atheist. I have more questions than answers. That's why I came here--to have some of my questions somehow answered. Your experience might very well be a valid one, but I can't verify or disprove it. It's yours. If your faith works for you, it's good. I'm glad for you, really, in a way even envy you because you have some assurance, which I don't. In the past I used to accept some information (the Bible) as final autority--more or less. It's changed and so now I have to rely only on my mind and senses.

AformerChristian · May 22, 2007

Abimelech said:
May I have you as a friend?

I'm not sure what you mean, but yes, sure, why not?

Criada · May 22, 2007

AformerChristian said:
I did not deconvert into an atheist. I have more questions than answers. That's why I came here--to have some of my questions somehow answered. Your experience might very well be a valid one, but I can't verify or disprove it. It's yours. If your faith works for you, it's good. I'm glad for you, really, in a way even envy you because you have some assurance, which I don't. In the past I used to accept some information (the Bible) as final autority--more or less. It's changed and so now I have to rely only on my mind and senses.

I think, if we are honest, all of us have more questions than answers!

I pray that you can find enough answers to be able to leave the rest of the questions with God.

You seem to have had a great many answers to your original three questions - have they helped at all?

ebia · May 22, 2007

AformerChristian said:
The Bible itself contains claims as to its origin, quality and purpose. It's impossible to accept the Bible and ignore them.

Yes and no.

Well, if the biblical books are not for the modernist mindset, what use does it have for me who has such mindset (according to you)? Do I have to totally change my thinking and become like an ancient sheep herder in order to believe in them or what? Or how to understand the Bible properly then?

You have to take into account the mindset of the cultures in which it was written. To read it otherwise is as silly as trying to read the Greek manuscript as if it were English.

AformerChristian · May 22, 2007

Criada said:
I think, if we are honest, all of us have more questions than answers!

From my experience, religious people tend not to admit this.

Criada said:
I pray that you can find enough answers to be able to leave the rest of the questions with God.

Thank you.

Criada said:
You seem to have had a great many answers to your original three questions - have they helped at all?

Many responses, not so many answers--some were repetitions. They sure did help, also reading through other threads at CF. It's hard for me to say now what are my conclusions, need more time. The posters who responded gave me much food for thought.

AformerChristian · May 22, 2007

ebia said:
You have to take into account the mindset of the cultures in which it was written. To read it otherwise is as silly as trying to read the Greek manuscript as if it were English.

So it's clearly one more argument against the Bible: it's not intended for the modern people and can't be understood by them properly...

ludovica · May 22, 2007

AformerChristian said:
1) Why do the absolute majority of Christians believe that the unbelievers are going to experience terrible torments in fire eternally AND at the same time, they do next to nothing about it? I mean sharing the 'good news', doing good works? Where is true faith? Where is true love? .

I believe the terrible torment is to be without Christ or hope of salvation, whether or not eternal fire is involved isn't something for us to know in this world I guess. I do my very best to lead people to Jesus, but to be honest, the best person to get them there is themselves. I think you need to feel tired and alone and overwhelmed before the "rational mind" says "I can't do this by myself any more" and calls for His help

AformerChristian said:
2) Why the Bible is so inconsistent in its teaching, has many discrepances and factual mistakes AND at the same time called the perfect word of an allmighty God? Imperfect work of a perfect Being? .

Depends on whether you think an omnipresent and omniscient being ought to fit into the imperfect human concept of "Perfect" There is stuff beyond our understanding that really doesn't measure up to our "devices and desires" because we absolutely cannot see the whole picture from where we are, nor are we intended to. We need to trust in the Lord. Things may go spectacularly wrong for us, in human terms, but it is HOW we deal with what we have to deal with that God is interested in IMO

AformerChristian said:
3) Why do the Christians exclude from salvation billions and billions of people who simply have not heard about the Christian Jesus (like my great grandparents who were muslims and very good, moral people) AND at the same time consider their God perfectly just and loving? A 'just' and 'loving' God doing the most unjust and cruel thing? How come?

.

Again we cannot try to second guess God's plan. Jesus told us that it is only through Him that we can come to eternal life, and that has to be our guide. When we return to God perhaps it will all be clearer, but until then we have to trust and believe... but somehow I feel you are completely missing the point. Christianity is about How We Live and only secondarily about what reward we may or may not receive when we die. We Hope for salvation, it is not necessarily our Right

Digit · May 22, 2007

AformerChristian said:
I don't know the answer. Perhaps, for the same reasons that all other religious books exist. That is, because somebody made up the ideas, recorded them, edited, developed, preserved--all over many centuries, generation after generation. People need some ideology, they can't live without one. Their mind requires explanation of things, inquires answers to their many questions. Religious books make attempts at just that. They're trying to open up a vail covering the main misteries--where this world came from, where people came from, why we live, how we should live and what's going to happen in the afterlife. So, it becomes a teaching on history, morality, spirituality.

There is a good quote which I am probably rapidly losing mileage on, but I will run the risk of quoting it one more time, which is: "A man with experience, is never at the mercy of a man with an argument."

I think the question here, should be, why is it that you find yourself at the mercy of people with arguments to make, when you have already experienced God?

To relate this to myself, I know there are many things I do not understand about God and the Bible, His teachings therein and so forth. However rather than losing faith, and then pursuing them, I instead have accepted there are things which I do not understand, and may likely never understand, but first and foremost I wish to retain my relationship with God, because I had that first before any of these doubts came up, and now, I can seek answers to these things. Sometimes it may not be that there is an answer in the Biblical sense, but I just need to order things and come to a conclusion on whatever it is that I am looking into, however I will never let my experience be overthrown by that which I seek.

Does that help at all?

Cheers!

Digit

MelissaShae · May 22, 2007

AformerChristian said:
It all sounds very good. You're a good Christian. It only seems to me you're used to this idea of hell so much it's become normal to you to think of people going to hell. 'It's their choice, I share with them but I'm not going to force them'. Sounds quite neutral, quite indifferent to me...

Can you give any examples?

I am not neutral or indifferent in any way but I can not force someone to follow Jesus Christ. I can tell them what I know about Jesus and then after that it is their decision and if they choose to not know him then he will not know them. I am not used to the idea of Hell but that is what God says will happen if you do not know Jesus Christ and I can't change the rules that he has made nor can I deny that someone who does not know Jesus Christ will go to hell.

I have many examples and if you are still interested then you can PM me.

AformerChristian · May 22, 2007

Digit said:
There is a good quote which I am probably rapidly losing mileage on, but I will run the risk of quoting it one more time, which is: "A man with experience, is never at the mercy of a man with an argument."

I think the question here, should be, why is it that you find yourself at the mercy of people with arguments to make, when you have already experienced God?

Maybe I experienced my ideas about a God...

Digit said:
To relate this to myself, I know there are many things I do not understand about God and the Bible, His teachings therein and so forth. However rather than losing faith, and then pursuing them, I instead have accepted there are things which I do not understand, and may likely never understand, but first and foremost I wish to retain my relationship with God, because I had that first before any of these doubts came up, and now, I can seek answers to these things. Sometimes it may not be that there is an answer in the Biblical sense, but I just need to order things and come to a conclusion on whatever it is that I am looking into, however I will never let my experience be overthrown by that which I seek.

Does that help at all?

Cheers!

Digit

This is a deep and personal subject. It's quite hard to talk about it with other people as it's something very intimate. Probably, this is the most important aspect of faith for anybody.

The thing is, you have an idea about God that you think is correct. You are sure you have a relationship with that God. There are other people who have quite different idea of god(s) and they also think they have a relationship with him (them). Who's right and who's wrong?

IMO, if someone doubts the very existance of, or, they're seeking to understand, God, then the order of previous events wouldn't be so important. The past, whatever it was, has been their path to come to the current state...

AformerChristian · May 22, 2007

ludovica said:
I believe the terrible torment is to be without Christ or hope of salvation, whether or not eternal fire is involved isn't something for us to know in this world I guess. I do my very best to lead people to Jesus, but to be honest, the best person to get them there is themselves. I think you need to feel tired and alone and overwhelmed before the "rational mind" says "I can't do this by myself any more" and calls for His help

Whatever one's idea of hell is, the Bible clearly describes it as a place of physical and moral torment. Not a very nice place to spend eternity in. About people being responsible for their salvation: the Bible doesn't say to wait for such moment when they're ready to accept. And even if it did, shouldn't Christians be always ready for it anyway?

ludovica said:
Depends on whether you think an omnipresent and omniscient being ought to fit into the imperfect human concept of "Perfect" There is stuff beyond our understanding that really doesn't measure up to our "devices and desires" because we absolutely cannot see the whole picture from where we are, nor are we intended to. We need to trust in the Lord. Things may go spectacularly wrong for us, in human terms, but it is HOW we deal with what we have to deal with that God is interested in IMO

There should be at least some logic, some consistency in the idea of God though. We look at this world and see perfect structure and harmony. If there is a God who created that, he can't manifest himself in disorder and confustion. Especially if he's trying to convey his 'saving message' to the human world 'he so loves'.

ludovica said:
Again we cannot try to second guess God's plan. Jesus told us that it is only through Him that we can come to eternal life, and that has to be our guide. When we return to God perhaps it will all be clearer, but until then we have to trust and believe... but somehow I feel you are completely missing the point. Christianity is about How We Live and only secondarily about what reward we may or may not receive when we die. We Hope for salvation, it is not necessarily our Right

This somehow, IMO, goes against the teaching that 'what is the profit for a man if he should gain the whole world but loose his soul?', 'don't gather treasures on earth, but in heaven'? That is, that the afterlife is far more important than this earthly life.

AformerChristian · May 22, 2007

MelissaShae said:
I am not neutral or indifferent in any way but I can not force someone to follow Jesus Christ. I can tell them what I know about Jesus and then after that it is their decision and if they choose to not know him then he will not know them. I am not used to the idea of Hell but that is what God says will happen if you do not know Jesus Christ and I can't change the rules that he has made nor can I deny that someone who does not know Jesus Christ will go to hell.

As I've said, perhaps you can be considered a good Christian by today's Christians' standards. Besides, I'm no one to judge you so no need to try and justify yourself.

It's not about forcing them. I'm not suggesting you to do that. It's about what you are willing to do, how far to go, which things to sacrifice, what to fully dedicate in your life for the purpose of helping other people find salvation. True faith --> realizating hard facts --> compassion and love in action... The nature of the Bible's gospel message is such, IMO, that no one in their right thinking can understand it--believe it--try to live by it--AND continue to lead their normal more or less secular lifestyle. And that is what the absolute majority, i.e. 99.99%, of the people calling themselves Christians are doing, it seems to me. I don't know if I'm explaining it clearly.

For example, the first Christians, according to the book of Acts, sold all of their property and lived in a commune awaiting Jesus' soon return doing all sorts of religious activity and preaching to others all day long in the meantime. Well, that I call faith. What we see today in modern Christianity (that I'm familiar with) is adaptation, rather. I see very little if any genuine faith or real love in that.

If you believe smth as truth, you act upon it. You don't continue to live your life in the same way as before as if you don't believe, you don't compromise, you do everything in your power to achieve the ultimate goals... I see nothing of that in Christianity, the Christianity that I could observe in my short personal experience with this religion... And I wasn't a distant observer...

MelissaShae said:
I have many examples and if you are still interested then you can PM me.

Okay.

ebia · May 23, 2007

AformerChristian said:
So it's clearly one more argument against the Bible: it's not intended for the modern people and can't be understood by them properly...

It's intended for all people, and can be understood with proper assistance - that's one of the reasons for the Church, so that we aren't on our own. Of course no-one's understanding will ever be perfect or complete, but it is not necessary nor possible that it should. The church is there to help us with translations, commentaries, and so forth.

The idea that one should be able to pick a bible, read it, and work everything out on your own is silly - you would have to learn Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine Greek to even get started.

All worthwhile learning involves both effort and support - however good the teacher.

ebia · May 23, 2007

AformerChristian said:
Originally Posted by Criada

I think, if we are honest, all of us have more questions than answers!

Click to expand...

From my experience, religious people tend not to admit this.

Most people (religious or otherwise) tend not to admit this.

AformerChristian · May 23, 2007

Criada said:
True.
But surely evidence for spiritual reality must be viewed differantly to evidence for a physical reality.
We have plenty of evidence that Jesus lived as a man - but solid evidence of who He is spiritually is another thing...
What sort of evidence do you feel is required here?
I can tell you of things God has done in my life - but you can put that down to coincidence. My own experience of God can only ever be subjective, and therefore of little use to anyone determined to explain it away.
I admire your intellecual honesty - but there is more to a human than logic!

God bless you.

Okay, I agree to your arguments.

Criada said:
What sort of evidence do you feel is required here?!

I don't know, really... It's not that I'm looking for evidence... All I can say I don't find the Bible--and what I see in Christians (that I've known)--convincing anymore...

Criada · May 23, 2007

AformerChristian said:
It's not about forcing them. I'm not suggesting you to do that. It's about what you are willing to do, how far to go, which things to sacrifice, what to fully dedicate in your life for the purpose of helping other people find salvation. True faith --> realizating hard facts --> compassion and love in action... The nature of the Bible's gospel message is such, IMO, that no one in their right thinking can understand it--believe it--try to live by it--AND continue to lead their normal more or less secular lifestyle. And that is what the absolute majority, i.e. 99.99%, of the people calling themselves Christians are doing, it seems to me. I don't know if I'm explaining it clearly.

For example, the first Christians, according to the book of Acts, sold all of their property and lived in a commune awaiting Jesus' soon return doing all sorts of religious activity and preaching to others all day long in the meantime. Well, that I call faith. What we see today in modern Christianity (that I'm familiar with) is adaptation, rather. I see very little if any genuine faith or real love in that.

If you believe smth as truth, you act upon it. You don't continue to live your life in the same way as before as if you don't believe, you don't compromise, you do everything in your power to achieve the ultimate goals... I see nothing of that in Christianity, the Christianity that I could observe in my short personal experience with this religion... And I wasn't a distant observer...

I completely agree with this!
So many of us are not living as He wants us to.
And that is a very sad thing! He gave up everything, was tortured and killed for me. And what do I do with the incredible gift that He has given me?
That is something I am coming to realize more and more in my own life - and I am, with His help, making changes. The Christian life should be one of complete surrender. But I have been a Christian for twenty years, and I am only just beginning to understand what it truly means. And how hard it is. But also, how wonderful!
We are not perfect - very far from it.
But that does not mean that God does not exist - just that humans are weak!

AformerChristian said:
I don't know, really... It's not that I'm looking for evidence... All I can say I don't find the Bible--and what I see in Christians (that I've known)--convincing anymore...

As to the latter - all I can say is, I am sorry!
As to the Bible - there are things I do not understand.
There are things I do not believe I will ever understand in this life.
I have, as I said previously, many more questions than answers.

But - there is always Jesus.
And I cannot ignore who He is and what He has done.
And what He asks of me.
And ,in the end, nothing matters beside that.

God bless you.

ludovica · May 23, 2007

AformerChristian said:
Whatever one's idea of hell is, the Bible clearly describes it as a place of physical and moral torment. Not a very nice place to spend eternity in. About people being responsible for their salvation: the Bible doesn't say to wait for such moment when they're ready to accept. And even if it did, shouldn't Christians be always ready for it anyway?.

I'm not sure what you mean here. A person has to invite Christ into their life to have any hope of salvation.. No-one can do that for them, only point them in the right direction

AformerChristian said:
There should be at least some logic, some consistency in the idea of God though. We look at this world and see perfect structure and harmony. If there is a God who created that, he can't manifest himself in disorder and confustion. Especially if he's trying to convey his 'saving message' to the human world 'he so loves'. .

Our logic is not the logic that God operates by,( quite plainly) I think it would be very wrong to suggest that God is chaotic of nature. I think we are just not fitted with sufficient understanding of His intent

AformerChristian said:
This somehow, IMO, goes against the teaching that 'what is the profit for a man if he should gain the whole world but loose his soul?', 'don't gather treasures on earth, but in heaven'? That is, that the afterlife is far more important than this earthly life.

We gather our treasures in heaven by the way we live our lives, in loving and trusting God and his Word even in the face of things going against our own wishes and earthly interests. I do not think that everyone who calls themself a Christian will be saved, there have been a great many people of evil deeds and thoughts who have paid mere lip-service to the Christian faith in the last 2000 years

MelissaShae · May 23, 2007

AformerChristian said:
As I've said, perhaps you can be considered a good Christian by today's Christians' standards. Besides, I'm no one to judge you so no need to try and justify yourself.

It's not about forcing them. I'm not suggesting you to do that. It's about what you are willing to do, how far to go, which things to sacrifice, what to fully dedicate in your life for the purpose of helping other people find salvation. True faith --> realizating hard facts --> compassion and love in action... The nature of the Bible's gospel message is such, IMO, that no one in their right thinking can understand it--believe it--try to live by it--AND continue to lead their normal more or less secular lifestyle. And that is what the absolute majority, i.e. 99.99%, of the people calling themselves Christians are doing, it seems to me. I don't know if I'm explaining it clearly.

For example, the first Christians, according to the book of Acts, sold all of their property and lived in a commune awaiting Jesus' soon return doing all sorts of religious activity and preaching to others all day long in the meantime. Well, that I call faith. What we see today in modern Christianity (that I'm familiar with) is adaptation, rather. I see very little if any genuine faith or real love in that.

If you believe smth as truth, you act upon it. You don't continue to live your life in the same way as before as if you don't believe, you don't compromise, you do everything in your power to achieve the ultimate goals... I see nothing of that in Christianity, the Christianity that I could observe in my short personal experience with this religion... And I wasn't a distant observer...

Okay.

I can not make someone become a christian no more that I can make money grow on trees or pigs fly. What I can do is tell them what I know about Jesus and his love for us and after that it is their decision. I will go whereever God sends me and do as he wants me to do and preach the gospel to those who God sends me to, but I can't turn them into Christians and I can't make them follow Jesus as much as I want them to be saved that is their decision to make with the help of Jesus Christ.

If God wanted me to give up all my material things and live in a hut somewhere then that is what I would do. But God has not called me to do that. I am for now where he wants me to be and I will go where he wants me to go. But just because we don't give up all of our worldly goods as they did in the days of Jesus does not mean that we lack faith it simply means that we live in a different time and God will put us where he wants us and we are not to challenge or to guess what that place may be.

I base my faith on what God wants from me not what others think God wants.

AformerChristian · May 24, 2007

ebia said:
It's intended for all people, and can be understood with proper assistance - that's one of the reasons for the Church, so that we aren't on our own. Of course no-one's understanding will ever be perfect or complete, but it is not necessary nor possible that it should. The church is there to help us with translations, commentaries, and so forth.

The idea that one should be able to pick a bible, read it, and work everything out on your own is silly - you would have to learn Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine Greek to even get started.

All worthwhile learning involves both effort and support - however good the teacher.

You say that inconsistencies/contradictions/errors are due to our misunderstanding of the complex multi-layer nature of the Bible, imperfection of its media (human authors and the languages), culture context. You claim that if one overcomes all that, they will come to the real essence of the Bible--the only and final truth about God. I understand such approach, I see how it could have developed and how some people use it as a way to accept the Bible. Nevertheles, I personally can't adopt such approach. Maybe I'm too simplistic, too silly, too practical, but this is the way I see things.

AformerChristian · May 24, 2007

ludovica said:
I'm not sure what you mean here. A person has to invite Christ into their life to have any hope of salvation.. No-one can do that for them, only point them in the right direction

Simply speaking, the fact that one is responsible for their own salvation doesn't nullify the responsibility of a Christian. IMO, that's what the Bible teaches in most cases.

ludovica said:
Our logic is not the logic that God operates by,( quite plainly) I think it would be very wrong to suggest that God is chaotic of nature. I think we are just not fitted with sufficient understanding of His intent

Okay.

ludovica said:
We gather our treasures in heaven by the way we live our lives, in loving and trusting God and his Word even in the face of things going against our own wishes and earthly interests. I do not think that everyone who calls themself a Christian will be saved, there have been a great many people of evil deeds and thoughts who have paid mere lip-service to the Christian faith in the last 2000 years

Okay.

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