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Anyone who uses these verses to make these claims either doesn't know metaphor, or ignores it on purpose.Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers.
A circle is a flat, two dimensional object. There is a Hebrew word for ball, which would have been better to use if the author new the earth was round as a sphere.
Daniel 4:10-11 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great. The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth.
Nebuchadnezzar has a dream, where a tree grows at the "center" of the earth. A spherical earth has no center on the surface. He also states that the tree grew so tall, that it reached into heaven and was able to be seen to the "ends of the earth".
Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
The author of Job imagines God can take the edges of the earth and shake out the wicked, like shaking dust out of a rug.
Job 11:9 The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.
A spherical earth has no ends to measure its length.
Deuteronomy 14:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth.
From one end of the earth, to the other end? This verse speaks for itself.
[SIZE=+2]Verses Describing A Stationary Earth[/SIZE]
Psalms 93:1 ...the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.
1 Samuel 2:8 ...for the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he has set the world upon them.
Isaiah 24:18 ...for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
1 Chronicles 16:30 Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.
Allow me to jump in here. [1] is not a Bible problem, it's a church (or, as you so honestly point out, LACKTHEREOF church) problem. We do need to get off our butts.1) Why do the absolute majority of Christians believe that the unbelievers are going to experience terrible torments in fire eternally AND at the same time, they do next to nothing about it? I mean sharing the 'good news', doing good works? Where is true faith? Where is true love?
2) Why the Bible is so inconsistent in its teaching, has many discrepances and factual mistakes AND at the same time called the perfect word of an allmighty God? Imperfect work of a perfect Being?
3) Why do the Christians exclude from salvation billions and billions of people who simply have not heard about the Christian Jesus (like my great grandparents who were muslims and very good, moral people) AND at the same time consider their God perfectly just and loving? A 'just' and 'loving' God doing the most unjust and cruel thing? How come?
That depends on whether God's purpose was to correct people's facts about history, or to communicate knowledge about himself, creation, people and their purpose in creation, etc, within their existing knowledge of (relative unimportant stuff) like historical facts.I do not say that the Bible doesn't have correct history. It surely does. What I was saying, it's not always correct in recording history. Almighty God doesn't make mistakes, does he? An example of historical errors in the Book of Daniel is verses Daniel 1:1-2. So, that makes me to think, the Bible is a good book on some history of some peoplse. It's just not a book from the God of the Universe.
Absolutely - whether one is twisting the metaphore to prove the bible says something that isn't true and is therefore wrong, or whether one is twisting a metaphore to prove the bible says something scientific and unknown to the time it was written and the bible is therefore inspired, as per several other posts in this thread. Both sides are using the same invalid trick. Apologists who pull out verses like Job 26:7 are doing the exact equivalant, and encouraging sceptics to pull out these kinds of verses in response, not to mention giving credance to Muslims who can pull exactly the same trick to "prove" the Koran.Anyone who uses these verses to make these claims either doesn't know metaphor, or ignores it on purpose.
I was in a hurry and gave those 2 links. There are many more. I have read and studied the Bible myself and found many problems for myself.Did, and there were many subjective errors, many having to do with the way they fail to view Christ for who He was. One "fatal" mistake was saying that Christ could not take the throne and rule a kingdom, because it can't happen now. To anyone with any understanding of scripture, thats just an out right stupid responce, knowing He was speaking of the future.
Scientific Facts in the Bible
http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingtool/scientificfactsintheBible.shtml
So where exactly the definition of the ATOM is here?! Talk about imagination!1. Only in recent years has science discovered that everything we see is composed of invisible atoms. Here, Scripture tells us that the "things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."
So, the gods of the Egyptians and Canaanites who had practiced this long before the Jews are true gods?2. Medical science has only recently discovered that blood-clotting in a newborn reaches its peak on the eighth day, then drops. The Bible consistently says that a baby must be circumcised on the eighth day.
1. The word "earth" can have many meanings. 2. It does not say the earth is a sphere revolving around the sun... 3. It is just one verse that might be interpreted to contain some seemingly correct information. 4. Alas, there are many more verses that talk about stable, flat earth in more clear terms.3. At a time when it was believed that the earth sat on a large animal or a giant (1500 B.C.), the Bible spoke of the earths free float in space: "He...hangs the earth upon nothing" (Job 26:7).
I just happen to be a sceptic who when he reads, 'circle' understands a circle, not a sphere.4. The prophet Isaiah also tells us that the earth is round: "It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22). This is not a reference to a flat disk, as some skeptic maintain, but to a sphere. Secular man discovered this 2,400 years later. At a time when science believed that the earth was flat, is was the Scriptures that inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world (see Proverbs 3:6 footnote).
Very long way around. Talk about twisting!5. God told Job in 1500 B.C.: "Can you send lightnings, that they may go, and say to you, Here we are?" (Job 38:35). The Bible here is making what appears to be a scientifically ludicrous statementthat light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech. But did you know that radio waves travel at the speed of light? This is why you can have instantaneous wireless communication with someone on the other side of the earth. Science didnt discover this until 1864 when "British scientist James Clerk Maxwell suggested that electricity and light waves were two forms of the same thing" (Modern Century Illustrated Encyclopedia).
Lightnings also produce thunder. A simpler interpretation of this 'here we are' saying.
I wander what the original says. Well, the light does not 'dwell' in a way. IT IS a way (partly), if we agree with the above mentioned explanation in lines with the modern knowledge.6. Job 38:19 asks, "Where is the way where light dwells?" Modern man has only recently discovered that light (electromagnetic radiation) has a "way," traveling at 186,000 miles per second.
OK, let's start looking for 'science' in every literary metaphor. We can make any poem or any religious book hightly scientific.7. Science has discovered that stars emit radio waves, which are received on earth as a high pitch. God mentioned this in Job 38:7: "When the morning stars sang together..."
What a luck! One word 'void' seems to be accepted by most of the mordern cosmologosts. What about many other words and ideas? Do they agree as well?8. "Most cosmologists (scientists who study the structures and evolution of the universe) agree that the Genesis account of creation, in imagining an initial void, may be uncannily close to the truth" (Time, Dec. 1976).
The wind can blow to east and west as well... It's not high science to tell that wind blows to south and to north and that it can blow in circles... Simple observation of ancient man.9. Solomon described a "cycle" of air currents two thousand years before scientists "discovered" them. "The wind goes toward the south, and turns about unto the north; it whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to his circuits" (Ecclesiastes 1:6).
The universe can be in other terms as well. Science is description of facts. You can describe facts in many different ways. This verse doesn't mention these 5 terms, it is interpreted (very weakly) to indicate mentioning them...10. Science expresses the universe in five terms: time, space, matter, power, and motion. Genesis 1:1,2 revealed such truths to the Hebrews in 1450 B.C.: "In the beginning [time] God created [power] the heaven [space] and the earth [matter] . . . And the Spirit of God moved [motion] upon the face of the waters." The first thing God tells man is that He controls of all aspects of the universe.
Such 'bad blood bleeding' wasn't practiced in many parts of the world... Middle Aged Europe is the only authority? My people thousands years before the European Middle Ages knew the importance of blood, for example, and would never bleed anybody to supposedly 'heal'.11. The great biological truth concerning the importance of blood in our bodys mechanism has been fully comprehended only in recent years. Up until 120 years ago, sick people were "bled," and many died because of the practice. If you lose your blood, you lose your life. Yet Leviticus 17:11, written 3,000 years ago, declared that blood is the source of life: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood."
I have heard about this 'behemoth'-dinosaurs. What about hundreds of other types of dinosaurs? Where are they in the Bible? And other mammals/birds/fish that became extinct?12. All things were made by Him (see John 1:3), including dinosaurs. Why then did the dinosaur disappear? The answer may be in Job 40:1524. In this passage, God speaks about a great creature called "behemoth." Some commentators think this was a hippopotamus. However, the hippos tail isnt like a large tree, but a small twig. Following are the characteristics of this huge animal: It was the largest of all the creatures God made; was plant-eating (herbivorous); had its strength in its hips and a tail like a large tree. It had very strong bones, lived among the trees, drank massive amounts of water, and was not disturbed by a raging river. He appears impervious to attack because his nose could pierce through snares, but Scripture says, "He that made him can make his sword to approach unto him." In other words, God caused this, the largest of all the creatures He had made, to become extinct.
You will be surprised, but the Middle-Age Europe is not the peak of scientific knowledge. The native Americans had a very accurate calendare 1000s of years before Europeans. Their god is the true god? The arab scientists knew about the need for good hygene to fight/prevent desease long before the Europeans. Their god Allah is the true one? And so on. The Jews lived in the craddle of civilization and apparently borrowed much of their (very advanced) knowledge. You will be surprised (probably) to know that many modern 'inventions' were invented in the Orient. Like the numbers that Europeans use were invented by the Indians (from India). etc. etc. etc. So what? Does it mean their (many) gods are all true gods?13. Encyclopedia Britannica documents that in 1845, a young doctor in Vienna named Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis was horrified at the terrible death rate of women who gave birth in hospitals. As many as 30 percent died after giving birth. Semmelweis noted that doctors would examine the bodies of patients who died, then, without washing their hands, go straight to the next ward and examine expectant mothers. This was their normal practice, because the presence of microscopic diseases was unknown. Semmelweis insisted that doctors wash their hands before examinations, and the death rate immediately dropped to 2 percent. Look at the specific instructions God gave His people for when they encounter disease: "And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself even days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean" (Leviticus 15:13). Until recent years, doctors washed their hands in a bowl of water, leaving invisible germs on their hands. However, the Bible says specifically to wash hands under "running water."
It ways, this day, this night. It doesn't say it will be dark or not dark in all parts of the world at that moment. It's normal that in one day some may be lying on the bed (it doesn't say sleeping), some maybe working (at daylight or at dark). People do all sorts of things.14. Luke 17:3436 says the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will occur while some are asleep at night and others are working at daytime activities in the field. This is a clear indication of a revolving earth, with day and night at the same time.
Same comment as for point 13.15. "During the devastating Black Death of the fourteenth century, patients who were sick or dead were kept in the same rooms as the rest of the family. People often wondered why the disease was affecting so many people at one time. They attributed these epidemics to bad air or evil spirits. However, careful attention to the medical commands of God as revealed in Leviticus would have saved untold millions of lives. Arturo Castiglione wrote about the overwhelming importance of this biblical medical law: The laws against leprosyin Leviticus 13 may be regarded as the first model of sanitary legislation (A History of Medicine)." Grant R. Jeffery, The Signature of God With all these truths revealed in Scripture,how could a thinking person deny that the Bible is supernatural in origin? There is no other book in any of the worlds religions (Vedas, Bhagavad-Gita, Koran, Book of Mormon, etc.) that contains scientific truth. In fact, they contain statements that are clearly unscientific. Hank Hanegraaff said, "Faith in Christ is not some blind leap into a dark chasm, but a faith based on established evidence."
Don't have to 'look'. They are there from page 1 and on.Dan~~~>suggest you keep looking for those "mistakes"
hi twistedsketch, I have many problems with the Bible other than those verses.Anyone who uses these verses to make these claims either doesn't know metaphor, or ignores it on purpose.
CircleIsaiah 40:22 It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers.
Remember this was a vision. We all have crazy dreams with symbolism.Daniel 4:10-11 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great. The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth.
This is such figurative statement!Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
Job 11:9 The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.
Actually in 13..Deuteronomy 14:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth.
The message of the writer, is that the world is so immense that one person cannot shake it. We have all had that sense before. He is just in awe of how small he is in the context of the universe.Psalms 93:1 ...the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.
A pillar is a structural element that holds up other structures. Consider electromagnetic fields, gravity, centrifugal force -- these are all pillars that we rely on.1 Samuel 2:8 ...for the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he has set the world upon them.
windows above * are openedIsaiah 24:18 ...for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
I certainly don't see this as evidence of their scientific theory.1 Chronicles 16:30 Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.
ebia, you already told me abot this, and I know about such thinking. it doesn't work for me. I can't accept an erroneous book of a supposedly perfect God.That depends on whether God's purpose was to correct people's facts about history, or to communicate knowledge about himself, creation, people and their purpose in creation, etc, within their existing knowledge of (relative unimportant stuff) like historical facts.
Note that the bible wasn't written by God, it was written by people inspired by God.
It is a compliment. However, you did not answer my simple question about your correct interpretation of John 3. Maybe you really don't have one?I'll take that as a compliment - it would put me in very good company.
Someone once said that to every question there is an answer that is simple, ... straightforward, .... and wrong.
Thank you for such comprehensive analysis of those OT verses. I've read it thorpughly. As you could have guessed, I borrowed those quotations and comments from a website. I didn't come here to argue, but to hear opinions and to ask questions. I mentioned other problems and other verses.I know that there are more verses that bother people, but I am just pointing out that before objecting to them or making conclusive statements about them, we need to see what they really said.
Hi intricatic!
I understand this. To understand my frustration, just think of the following. Let's imagine that a powerful bomb is scheduled to blast in 24hours under a house and you happened to find out about it. Wouldn't you want to do everything you can and can't to inform and convince the people living in that house to get out and save their lives? Well, Christians claim they have similar knowledge about non-Christians and now look at them... They care about today's life, not tomorrow's...The faults of Christians are the faults of fallen men, and no man is without fault. To base a judgement against a religion that one believes to be the true faith, in the true God and Creator of the world, on the followers of said religion, is to walk blindly into the downfall of whatever religion that may be. God is bigger than people, and as followers of The Lord, we need to measure up; none of us do, which is why we all need Grace.
Modern science is one thing. The Bible is inconsistent in its theology and moral teaching as well.Do you consider hermeneutics and exegesis to be something that one should judge based on modern science?
How do you believe about salvation? Who will be saved and who not?Salvation is no man's to give but Christ. Ultimately God will save whom He will save, and give mercy to whom He gives mercy.
1. Put off opinions of other people. 2. Opened my eyes. 3. Started looking at the Bible, Christianity, Christians honestly.Why not? What's caused you to change your view?
Thanks for your response. I tried to answer your q's and explain.Any time, and thank you for posting here. I hope you don't take my post here in a bad way, it was meant in all honesty as an inquiry to you. I am curious as to what brought this change about.
Hi RN4CHRIST!While I may not be able to answer your question, I can tell you that when I put my eyes on Christ, and keep them there, I can overlook the failings of other Christians. He reminds me daily that I am not perfect, but He also motivates me to live more like Him daily. Do I always succeed? No, I often stumble and fall. Do I share the Gospel like I should? No, I miss opportunities daily to share Christ with others. But still, I strive on. Looking forward to the day I am perfected in Christ. When I look at myself, I can see that I must be willing to correct the errors in me before I can correct the errors in my brothers and sisters in Christ. This is what keeps it all in perspective to me. Do I believe in the Inerrentcy of the Bible? Yes, because the More I read, the more the Holy Spirit convicts me of how correct it is. Perhaps I have not been helpful, but I know that when Christ came into my soul, I found a life that is so much fuller and joyful than any I could have imagined. Even through the worst pain and darkest night, Christ has never let me down. That is what I focus on. I pray that you will have that assurance in your life too,
Hi Criada, please understand this. I was a Christian. I beleived in the Bible. I got disillusioned because I found very little if any TRUE faith and TRUE love. Why be a part of somthing like that? I didn't want to.Judging Christianity by the actions of imperfect people may not be the best idea!
Look at Christ and His teachings!
Many Christians do not obey His teachings - but surely that does not mean that He was wrong - simply that we are fallible!
Hi MedicMan, thse questions are really bothering me.Interesting questions there
There ARE muslim and other outreaches, maybe not so much where you live. Yes, those missionaries did come and shared the gospel, printed literature, and so on. But when you come to know them better, it is one big one disappointment. They lie, misrepresent local situation to their home churches to get more money. I feel sick when I think about this big deception. They have no heart for the people. They spend some time in a 'foreign land', where they live a super-comfortable life of the western 'middle-class' and they basically preach american values (talking about the US missionaries), they create churches exactly according to their US traditions, they teach locals to forsake their traditions and to accept American ways. Some of them make huge money by investing into real estate, then go back home and continue to lead a life of an average person. They are very, very far from the local people. One missionary who led me to faith recently denounced Christ. I really don't understand why those 'missionaries' do what they do, for what reasons. To me, it's like some strange game of ambitions or self-importance or selfishness. I really don't know. NO faith, NO love near them. I would rather them NOT preach in my country than preach. They only corrupt others. They are a disgrace...In response to 1) I'd say that's not necessarily true. After all, you said yourself that you became a Christian after hearing an American preacher. Christians are involved in quite a bit of outreach (incidentally, I don't remeber seeing people teaching about YHWH, Allah, Brahman, or any other religions, but that's beside the point).
I already gave several examples. Let me repeat, why the Bible says 'kill', 'do not kill', 'kill to retaliate', 'commit genocide', 'do not hate it's like murder', etc. I am all too much confused by such incredibly inconsistent teaching. Changing from page to page.To 2), the Bible is only inconsistent if you take its words out of context. Perhaps if you gave me/us some specific examples of these 'inconsistencies' we could explore how they are not in fact inconsistent at all
The Muslims may know about Isa Paighambar (prophet Jesus), but they do not know the 'saving gospel'. So, they go to hell?Finally, for 3), unfortunately that is what is taught; that no matter what deeds you have performed in your life, if you fail to acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God and the Saviour of Mankind, you will be sent to Hell for the original sin. As far as I was aware, Jews and Muslims did know about Jesus (I had been taught during my Religious Studies GCSE that Muslims regarded Jesus as a prophet). Since they know He exists, it is then up to them to investigate what He said, believed, etc. That is partly what missionary societies are for - to bring Jesus' light to people who would not otherwise hear it!
Dear MrDave,Dear Friend:
Thank you for the two web sites you gave showing what I guess you believe proves there are errors and inconsistencies in the Bible. There are far too many to statements to deal with individually and many of the examples of inconsistencies are just as questionable and laughable, as what they are trying to prove.
An example of this can be show from the section FATAL BIBLE FLAWS? Seems the author is not even convinced. The very first section, concerning FEAR. Where verses are given where the KJV says, “Fear the Lord” versus, I guess the suggested contradiction, from I Jn. 4:18. Any dictionary can show that the word FEAR can have different meaning in different contexts. So a FEAR OF HEIGHTS and a FEAR OF GOD could mean very different things. One definition of FEAR is:
.
a distressing emotion aroused by impending danger, evil, pain, etc., whether the threat is real or imagined; the feeling or condition of being afraid.
Another definition of FEAR is: to have reverential awe of.
I have started to read these and all I can say is can be summed up by a cut and paste from one of the sites: Note even the article says: POSSIBLE PROBLEMS, MAY BE RESOLVABLE ON CERTAIN INTERPRETATIONS, PROBLEMS MAY EXIST…..
NOTE: These lists are meant to identify possible problems in the Bible, especially problems which are inherent in a literalist or fundamentalist interpretation. Some of the selections may be resolvable on certain interpretations--after all, almost any problem can be eliminated with suitable rationalizations--but it is the reader's obligation to test this possibility and to decide whether it really makes appropriate sense to do this. To help readers in this task, these lists are aimed at presenting examples where problems may exist given certain allowable (but not always obligatory) assumptions. It should be kept in mind that a perfect and omnipotent God could, should, and likely would see to it that such problems did not exist in a book which s/he had inspired. It should also be kept in mind that what is and is not a Biblical flaw is to some extent a matter of opinion. You are entitled to disagree with the author that these are, in fact, Biblical flaws--let alone fatal flaws.
Thanks, I will disagree. Why? Taking into consideration that the King James Version, 1633, is a TRANSLATION from the available manuscripts at that time, was quite often limited in what ENGLISH word to use when translating from GREEK which has far more distinctive words: Ex. In the GREEK there are three words for LOVE each with different meanings: AGAPE, PHILOS and EROS yet the translators were limited to use LOVE. So there is some responsibility on the readers part to understand that GOD’S LOVE and a man and woman’s love do mean different things. When I say I LOVE my wife, I am not thinking of “brotherly love”.
So I do not see a contradictions or inconsistency between versus that say “have a reverential awe of God” in one place, and Love removes “being afraid of” in another place.
This God, you deny, did give us a brain, and the ability to research what is really being said. There are thousands and thousands of manuscript copies, copies of copies of the originals and there are thousand and thousands of translations. So when there seems to be a contradiction in a translation, perhaps the responsibility then falls to examination of the older manuscripts to see what was really said. I personally prefer the KJV over new translations, but I realize that before I throw the Bible away because I think I see a contradiction or inconsistency, that perhaps I should research this a little deeper?
So I and many others are still waiting for an example of CLEAR ERROR or INCONSISTENCY in the scriptures, not just a misunderstanding or lack of research on someone part.
I do thank you for these two sites though, and will read them, and perhaps I will point out what I think are inconsistencies and errors that I find with them.
Are you willing to gamble your eternal destiny on this! You have left it up to someone else and you believe them before you believe the God and the Bible. Wow. Majoring on the minors.
"It should be kept in mind that a perfect and omnipotent God could, should, and likely would see to it that such problems did not exist in a book which He had inspired."
He did.... IN THE ORIGINALS.
DECISION DETERMINES DESTINY
What you call errors aren't errors in a meaningful sense. They are limitiations in the medium - just as the imperfections in the paper it's written on are. It's the message that is carried about God, his creation, us, etc that God is trying to transmit - complaining about the paper quality would be silly.ebia, you already told me abot this, and I know about such thinking. it doesn't work for me. I can't accept an erroneous book of a supposedly perfect God.
Reading the bible as a manual of laws to obay is missing the point, just as reading it as a textbook on science or a recipe for fruit-cake. The truth about right and wrong is something one is expected to learn about by reading the whole, reflecting on it and praying about it, seeing how it fits in the bigger picture and the Great Commandments, etc. Right and wrong cannot be properly encompased by any finite set of rules. Yes some of it is rules, but different bits are different sorts of rules - some are big picture stuff. Some are specifics for specific contexts. Much is case-law, from which drawing direct inference must be done carefully. And so forth.I already gave several examples. Let me repeat, why the Bible says 'kill', 'do not kill', 'kill to retaliate', 'commit genocide', 'do not hate it's like murder', etc. I am all too much confused by such incredibly inconsistent teaching. Changing from page to page.
So why are you debating irrevelent "errors" in the bible, when your real objection with Christianity is the much more valid one that Christians don't show the fruit promised? Now that is a legitimate reason for rejecting the faith, and cries by the church that "we can't be expected to live up the promise" are a cop-out. The early church grew very quickly precisely because they did live up the promise and cause people to think "I need to be part of that", as does the rapidly growing church in much of the persecuted and 3rd world.Hi Criada, please understand this. I was a Christian. I beleived in the Bible. I got disillusioned because I found very little if any TRUE faith and TRUE love. Why be a part of somthing like that? I didn't want to.
I am truly sorry that this has been your experience!Hi Criada, please understand this. I was a Christian. I beleived in the Bible. I got disillusioned because I found very little if any TRUE faith and TRUE love. Why be a part of somthing like that? I didn't want to.
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