Questions from a former Christian

BigNorsk said:

So I kind of think you didn't experience true Christianity, but some form parading as it. Maybe the people taught it wrong, maybe you just took it wrong. I don't know, but I can't figure out why if you had a personal relationship with Jesus why you would reject him because some other people didn't get their relationship correct.

Kind of like divorcing your wife because your cousin didn't get along with his wife.

Marv

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Hi Marv, thank you for your post, at times harsh but honest! I understand you. I can tell you I understood the gospel very well, believed in it, but what is my word to you, right? I can say anything, but it might only be pretence...

Please understand: my personal experience or understanding are subjective by definition and surely according to someone's beliefs (like yours) they might be very wrong. But there are some objective things (if you look at them without any religious preconceptions) that I simply cannot accept now. For example, how the Bible contradicts the facts of modern science, how the OT God is totally different from the NT God, how the four gospel accounts differ. Isn't it ironic that the Bible, generally a strongly monotheistic collection of books, contains the book of Esther, which is based on Babylonian and Elamitian pagan myths?.. Those are just a few examples. About the majority (not all) Christians, including most ministers, they simply don't believe--and even don't try--probably because it's humanly impossible--in what they declare they believe. Why I say that? Because their actions reveal it. You say there haven't been many who haven't heard. Do you seriousely believe in that? Think about all of the earth's population soon after the death of Yeshua Mashiakh on the Golgotha hill outside Yerushalaim. People die every day. Go today to China (I traveled to many parts of this great country), not just Beijing or Shanghai but deep into some remote provinces and ask people at random about Jesus the Christ that saved them. Check how many of them heard your version of gospel you hold to. You will be surprised by the result of this quite simple experiment. If China is too far or difficult, replace China by any other country, including yours, and you will get more or less same result. Do you believe the human race 1974 years ago inhabited ONLY the Middle East, Asia Minor, a little bit of Africa and a small portion of Europe? What about the two Americas? What about Australia? What about the reast Asia? What about the rest of Africa? What about the rest of Europe? What about thousands of islands? They all miracuosly heard instantly? For some reason I strongly doubt that. If God is really just and loving, then there has got to be a different way for 'salvation' OTHER than believing in Yeshua born in the palestinian town of Bait-Lekhem about 20 centuries ago.

It's easy to theoretize anything and to come to any conclusions sitting at the computer at your comfortable home, but not so easy to go out and face the hard but honest FACTS of life.

About the Quran, I left Islam long ago and don't believe the Quran is a godly book. So, I don't think I'm influenced by it or any myths related to it.

kulenok said:

True faith is being able to stare down a loaded gun and asked to denounce Christ, and saying no. True love is going through everything to be with that person, and doing anything for that person.

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I more or less agree. Do you honestly see anything close to this among Christians?

kulenok said:

Answer 2:What mistakes? Please name a few.

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There are many of them, really. Please google 'mistakes in the Bible' and you'll get hundreds of related websites. I personally dislike most the mistakes about nature. The Bible talks about some firm dome around flat earth (Genesis) that separates the water above and beneath to which the stars are attached to. I also see it funny how the Creator could indicate the earth is flat (in many Bible verses). Those just a very few examples.

kulenok said:

Answer 3:Acually I believe that if you have never heard of Hcrist but stilllead a good life, you get saved. But if you hear of him, and disbelieve, you are not saved

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I heard this one many times. Then sorry, the Bible is not true when it says Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven... Then there are many other ways, including Mohammad, Krishna, Zeus, Hamos, Tengri, Umai, Ra etc. etc.

MelissaShae said:

1. Many Christians do share the "good news" but many times in falls on deaf ears so to speak. We are asked for absolute proof and then told that we are wrong for believing in Jesus and that there is no concrete proof for such a faith in God.

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Hi MelissaShae! What about yourself, can you honestly say that you live as a person who TRULY believes most people around maybe including close family very soon will be burning in fire and tormenting eternally? (If you believe in a literal hell, of course). Do you think and live like that?

MelissaShae said:

2. I have not found anything in the bible that is factually wrong. God's word is perfect just like God and it is man who makes mistakes.

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I did find.

MelissaShae said:

Everyone has the chance to know God in this day and time and all you have to do is listen and you will hear him.

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It is easy to believe in this, but it is hard to prove it by facts.

ebia said:

When you express complex, infinite, nuanced things through consise, written, limited, finite human language you get inconsistancies. The only way a finite book about God could be useful and consistant would be for God to be lesser than the book.

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hi ebia and thanks for your reply too! Interesting idea. I myself would tell people similar things about the Bible before. It doesn't work for me anymore. I can't trust my life on a finite book that is SO MUCH imperfect.

ebia said:

I don't exclude anyone from salvation, and it's not God's intention to do so either. Jesus came to save the whole creation.

He doesn't.

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Nice answer. What are the practical implications?

Abiel-Areli said:

O don't know the answer to any of your questions. I just follow Jesus

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Do you really?

Mailman Dan said:

There are 2 audios that would greatly help you grasp a better understanding of Christianity, vs the projected image of it.

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I can't listen now because I have access to the Internet at work... Thanks anyway for the links.

Mailman Dan said:

Name them. I need to see specifics.

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Contradictions with the modern knowledge about the solar system. The earth is a sphere, not flat rock standing on pillars with a glass-like dome around the earth with the sun, moon and stars revolving about it. Greatly exagerrated numbers in the OT. The so-called 'miracles' of the OT and NT. Unfulfilled prophecies. Factual mistakes (for understandible reasons) by writers who wrote many decades/centures after the described historical events had happened/historical figures had lived. Obvious progressive development of theology, moral values in the OT and NT from age to age--i.e. from older biblical books to newer ones. Great influence by Cananite, Babylonian, Persian mythology depending on the age when the biblical authors lived. Result: enormous confusion and contradiction. Discrepances between the four gospels. Jesus says don't say fools and calls people fools himself. Etc. etc. etc. There are so many more and I'm of course not the first one to point them out... You must be familiar with these problems yourself if you ever read and studied the Bible carefully. The Bible simply doesn't look to me as a 'smart', 'correct', 'honest', 'true', 'for all people' = 'perfect' collection of books anymore... It did in the past, but it was the result of 1) accepting other people's opinions, 2) self-deception.

Mailman Dan said:

Is God just? Important question, because if God is just, He must punish evil. If He is perfect, He must punish all evil. God will by no means clear the guilty, and despite your attitude that your not running to sin, you still do it. Have you ever lied? If so, God will hold you accountable... Ever stole anything, used God's name as a curse word, looked in lust or hated? All evil will be removed from God's sight, because God is just and Holy.

God did provide a way for you to be forgiven. Unless you understand the baisc concept of what sin is and how God holds everything and everyone accoutable for every deed, you can't understand why you need forgiveness, which only depends on the One who took your punishement.

You, like many others did (myslef included) went through religious experiences without understanding the reason for Christ. I'm glad someone took the time to explain it to me...

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Nice presentation of a Christian gospel. I know all of this, Dan. I was indeed explained something along similar lines many-many times before. I did believe in this phylosophy with all my heart, lived by it, even diligently tought many others about it. I went through persecution because my people are muslim and the government is generally atheistic. Result? Disillusionment. Why? Because I at some point started thinking for myself and not just blindly accepting out of fear what other people tought me...

Mailman Dan said:

Dan~~~>wishes you the best of luck

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Thanks and same to you!

Hi ILove2Worship!

ILove2Worship said:

There is true faith out there, and there is true love out there you just have to find the dedicated Christian to show you that.

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OK. Let's wait for some years and see if you still think the same. Maybe you will finally see that the prevailing ideas in Christianity are selfishness, self-righteousness, judging spirit and hypocrisy.

ILove2Worship said:

I disagree with this 110%! The Bible is divided into two sections the Old Testament and the New Testament. The New Testament is what modern day churchs, and Christians follow. The Old Testament is what the Churchs before Christ came to the Earth through Mary and Joseph. So there is a difference yes in the teachings but there is also, a difference in the time period in which it all occured.

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Different Gods for different times? Interesting.

ILove2Worship said:

If you had the chance where you live to become a Christian and there was a church then so did your Grandparents. They probably had oppurtunities to go to a Christian church and hear it. Someone may not directly tell you or invite you, but they have made it known that they are a Christian. (Like you). You said you were a Christian and your family I am sure knew that it was just a matter of whether or not they took it to heart or not.

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In my example I mentioned my great granparents, who lived in the 19th century. There were NO Christian churches in the town where they lived. There were NO Christians living there. Especially protestants. If there was maybe ONE Christian, they were Russian Orthodox and far from proselitizing. Who knows, maybe they did hear something Christian, yes. They lived more than 100 years ago, so there is no way I can be sure about anything. I can tell you, most likely, they didn't hear. They read the Quran (in arabic), they attended a mosque, they heard Muslim preaching, etc., nothing Christian near them. If not them, then there were many others who I can say for sure haven't heard during their lifetime.

MrDave said:

Dear Friend:

I have read your post and the replies to your post with great interest because I believe there are many others who like you are disillusioned by what they see in Christianity and in those claiming to be Christians. I have met others who said they were Christians at one time and were no longer, and yet I think their definition of what is a Christian never matches up to what Christ says makes a person a Christian. I have that same fear with all your statements concerning what you once were. You said you were a Christian, but would God say you were, I have my doubts. It’s not what I say about myself, it’s what God says.

It will not be an easy thing to do to answer your questions to your satisfaction and many of the posts provided good responses but I would like to add additional thoughts to what has been said because I believe that God loves you very much and desires for you to have a real RELATIONSHIP with Him through His Son Jesus Christ.

Let me begin by saying that there are PROFESSING CHRISTIANS and POSSESSING CHRISTIANS and these two are not always one and the same. There are many who PROFESS to be Christians, who are not Christians at all. See Matthew 7:21- 23. It is sad, but perhaps the majority of those calling themselves Christians are really not true Christians at all. True Christianity is a RELATIONSHIP with God and Jesus, not a RELIGION. Too many self proclaiming “Christians” belong only to an organization and have never had a true personal salvation experience. Notice, Jesus says MANY will say to me in that day…and He will say, I NEVER KNEW YOU.

POSSESSING CHRISTIANS know the correct answer to this question: What makes a Christian a true Christian? I am not going to say the answer to this except to say, it is not belonging to any Christian denomination or organization or any amount of good works.

Much of what you say concerns your disillusionment, frustration and dissatisfaction with what I would say is the Christian organizations you were involved in and the people involved. You say you studied different denominations, was very involved in Christian works, etc. yet you found fault with this belief system and the way the majority were acting. Sadly, I think you may have found the Christian religion without having actually met the Christ of Christianity. I think you were self-deceived into thinking all that activity was what made or proved you were Christian, yet you had only substituted the religion of works of Islam for a religion of works of Christianity.

With that said, let me attempt to answer your three questions. I’ll start with 2 and 3 first since I think they are easier.

Question 2: Sorry, but I have not found any factual errors or inconsistencies in the scriptures. I have found that I may not understand or agree with what is being said, but I’m the problem not the scriptures or God. Praying for understanding usually clears up my problems. That’s where faith comes in. Sometimes my concepts of God and how I think God should work causes me to misunderstand. I think Job had a bit of this problem too. Perhaps you could provide some examples you’ve found.

Question 3: Sorry again, Christians do not exclude billions and billions of people. God did not give us that authority, we are responsible only for ourselves and then witnessing to others. We can’t save anyone or condemn anyone. Each person is responsible for themselves. God will be the one judging and determining the eternal destiny of every person. God has worked in the lives of each person in such a way that when they stand before Him: I Peter 1:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, {not willing} that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance”. Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.” I can only say this concerning your grandparents and you, God does not desire to condemn them or you, but your grandparents and you will be without excuse in that day.

Question 1: We believe that because God said it, we have to accept it. Matthew 7:13 “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” I take no comfort in the thought that my family are on the way to eternal separation from God, yet all efforts to tell them are rejected. That majority of Christians you accuse of not sharing or caring or doing good works, well maybe it’s because they are lacking the convicting influence of the Holy Spirit to tell others. Your right, “where is true faith?”…Sadly not in most Christian churches. Read Luke 18: 8 “I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?”

Now my friend, what about you? Are you going to reject what Jesus Christ did for you based upon looking at the lives of others who are just as lost as you? You will someday stand before God, you will live eternally either in Heaven or Hell. Do you still refuse God’s offer of salvation for you. Take your eyes off Christianity, take your eyes off other people, consider this God/Man Jesus who came to this Earth to die for your sins. When Jesus was on the cross, he had you in mind. Will you reject Him, because whatever Christianity you found did not measure up to what you think?

Consider this” Hebrews 10:29 “Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the {blood} of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

Decision determines Destiny!​

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Dear MrDave,

Thank you for your response and for your deep concern for my soul!

It seems to me you're a preacher. Your post is very elloquent. You in a more detailed and clear way repeated some of the things that other posters said earlier.

Please understand that I no longer believe in the Bible as divine, truthful book. Therefore, I cannot trust in Jesus Christ that this book is talking about. Christians act the way they act because they are human, that's correct. Which shows weekness (or absence) of their God. You say that no one is excused from responsibility to believe in Jesus Christ EVEN those who haven't even heard the name? What kind of logic is it?

AformerChristian said:

hi ebia and thanks for your reply too! Interesting idea. I myself would tell people similar things about the Bible before. It doesn't work for me anymore. I can't trust my life on a finite book that is SO MUCH imperfect.

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When it comes to it's "specialised subject" (ie talking about God) the bible may be imperfect, but, like creation, it's "very good". If one tries to use to for another purpose - determining the age of the world, or instructions on how to make a Black Forest Gateaux, for instance - then it will be considerable less useful because that's not it's purpose. Any book is useless if you use it to try and answer questions that are outside the domain it is intended to address.

Taken as a whole, however, and combined properly with all the other means that God communicates with us (through other people, prayer, creation, the Holy Spirit, etc, etc) it is very good at teaching us about God 'stuff'.

Nice answer. What are the practical implications?

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1. It's not my job to decide who is in and who is out (if anyone). It is my job to try and guide people towards God's purpose for them.
2. The Gospels make it quite clear that God wishes to save all creation, and will do the best possible to achieve that. On the other hand, it's very hard, sometimes impossible, to save someone who refuses to be saved. Whether, in the final analysis, God succeeds in saving everyone is something we cannot yet know - one can produce "proof-texts" to support either position.

To all:

1) Your posts are a true blessing! I really needed to talk about these issues with Christians. I haven't professed my unbelief to my church, friends, colleagues yet. I am away from my home city now and it is very good opportunity to think things over. Frankly, I didn't expect such kind, concerned, deep, serious responses here! Thank you all again! I wouldn't talk to any Christian I know about these issues because I know what their reaction would be: "fallen from grace, attracted by the pleasures of sinful world, deceived by satan" etc: judgment, not help. And I need help--I feel quite messed up and confused now. Loosing something you held on to for years is sure hard...

2) What I've realized after reading your responses, is that I should not generalize so much. It is my mistake. However, please understand that I look at how Christians act because I want to see how this faith works--is it the true one. "The tree and its fruits", or "the spring and the water coming out of it", remember? To date, I has always enjoyed non-Christians that I know 100 times more than the Christians I know, because the non-Christian may commit 'sins' but they are at least honest and listen to their conscience. Christians (that I've known) in some ways are so much hypocritical and selfish it makes me really sick, sorry.

To AformerChristian,
I personally believe that the Bible is inerrant, that is, contains no errors. It is my experience that many people who hold to a position such as yours have not really researched the answers to these alleged contradictions and mistakes. Often times, they are as simple as misinterpretations, taking verses out of context, and / or not understanding the Hebrew or Greek language and literacy rules.

Could you give an example or two of these "many discrepancies" and "factual mistakes"?

Kind regards.

ebia said:

When it comes to it's "specialised subject" (ie talking about God) the bible may be imperfect, but, like creation, it's "very good". If one tries to use to for another purpose - determining the age of the world, or instructions on how to make a Black Forest Gateaux, for instance - then it will be considerable less useful because that's not it's purpose. Any book is useless if you use it to try and answer questions that are outside the domain it is intended to address.

Taken as a whole, however, and combined properly with all the other means that God communicates with us (through other people, prayer, creation, the Holy Spirit, etc, etc) it is very good at teaching us about God 'stuff'.

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Another nice answer from you, ebia. You're a master of abstract ideas, I'm serious. OK. Your position understood. It's a valid one. Right, no book can answer every question. So, it's a book on the 'God stuff'. Fine. But. Any book that is trying to teach me anything must be trustworthy. If I find obvious errors in my math textbook (2+2=5, for example), I would look for another one. I wouldn't build my house using the formulas from this erroneous textbook. So, it's a matter of simple trust in a book (collection of short books in this case), and not a matter of expecting more from a book than it's supposed to be.

ebia said:

1. It's not my job to decide who is in and who is out (if anyone). It is my job to try and guide people towards God's purpose for them.
2. The Gospels make it quite clear that God wishes to save all creation, and will do the best possible to achieve that. On the other hand, it's very hard, sometimes impossible, to save someone who refuses to be saved. Whether, in the final analysis, God succeeds in saving everyone is something we cannot yet know - one can produce "proof-texts" to support either position.

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I've heard such position before. First of all, it's quite vague and sounds like a mere trick, an attempt to come of a difficult situation the command 'believe in Jesus and get saved or don't believe and burn in hell' puts us. Then, ebia, my simple question to you is, why the Bible was needed in the first place? Why believe? Why go to church? Why evangelize?

Point said:

To AformerChristian,

2) Why the Bible is so inconsistent in its teaching, has many discrepances and factual mistakes AND at the same time called the perfect word of an allmighty God? Imperfect work of a perfect Being?​

I personally believe that the Bible is inerrant, that is, contains no errors. It is my experience that many people who hold to a position such as yours have not really researched the answers to these alleged contradictions and mistakes. Often times, they are as simple as misinterpretations, taking verses out of context, and / or not understanding the Hebrew or Greek language and literacy rules.

Could you give an example or two of these "many discrepancies" and "factual mistakes"?

Kind regards.

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Point, I already mentioned a few of them in my previous posts here. Discrepances are, just for example, can be found between the books of Kings and Chronicles, between the four gospels in discribing the same events. Mistakes - earth is not flat, the stars are not fixed on a dome, the sun does not revolve around the earth, these are the main ones that appeal to me as an engineer. The two accounts of creation differ in details. Don't have the Bible with me now, something related to the order when what was created, and how humans were created. Chapter 1 and 2 of Genesis that is. There are many errors related to history, too.

AformerChristian said:

Another nice answer from you, ebia. You're a master of abstract ideas, I'm serious. OK. Your position understood. It's a valid one. Right, no book can answer every question. So, it's a book on the 'God stuff'. Fine. But. Any book that is trying to teach me anything must be trustworthy. If I find obvious errors in my math textbook (2+2=5, for example), I would look for another one. I wouldn't build my house using the formulas from this erroneous textbook. So, it's a matter of simple trust in a book (collection of short books in this case), and not a matter of expecting more from a book than it's supposed to be.

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As a maths teacher I'm well aware that maths textbooks are actually littered with mistakes, but thats off the the track - are you claiming that the bible is in error about the "God stuff"?

I've heard such position before. First of all, it's quite vague and sounds like a mere trick, an attempt to come of a difficult situation the command 'believe in Jesus and get saved or don't believe and burn in hell' puts us.

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The bible never put us there in the first place - simplistic interpretations of it did.

Then, ebia, my simple question to you is, why the Bible was needed in the first place? Why believe? Why go to church? Why evangelize?

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Because that's how God is working in the world to save it. That's how he is making what Christ did a practical reality. And because doing God's will is what we are designed for in the first place - we can't be fully human without.

ebia said:

As a maths teacher I'm well aware that maths textbooks are actually littered with mistakes, but thats off the the track

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Maths textbooks do not send people to heaven or hell. I may have given a poor comparison, but my idea still stands. I can't entrust my life, my eternity, my thoughts, my actions to a book full of contradictions, discrepances and errors!

ebia said:

are you claiming that the bible is in error about the "God stuff"?

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Of course! That was point 1 in my question about the Bible. It's teaching is contradictory. That's no wander considering the time span during which the books were written and the beliefs of the middle-eastern/south asian people in the ancient times. God says "it's okay to kill to retaliate" in one place, "don't kill" in another place, "commit cruel genocide" in a third place, and "don't hate your neighbour it's equal to murder" in the forth place. What about consistency? I'm a bit confused here. "To kill or not to kill, that is the question". Jesus says "don't call a person a fool or crazy or else you will deserve hell" and then says "ye fools". These are a few examples. Imagine a maths textbook that says, 2+2=5, 2+2=4, 2+2=3, 2+2=1, 2+2=2545321 and has different calculations that are derived from each one of the above. What a confusion! How can I know the real maths using such textbook, eh?

ebia said:

The bible never put us there in the first place - simplistic interpretations of it did.

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I read John 3, for example, and it's quite clear. No simplistic interpretation is needed.

ebia said:

Because that's how God is working in the world to save it. That's how he is making what Christ did a practical reality. And because doing God's will is what we are designed for in the first place - we can't be fully human without.

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Here you come down to the real truth, ebia. This is YOUR philosophy of life. YOU think so. I don't.

AformerChristian said:

Maths textbooks do not send people to heaven or hell. I may have given a poor comparison, but my idea still stands. I can't entrust my life, my eternity, my thoughts, my actions to a book full of contradictions, discrepances and errors!

Of course! That was point 1 in my question about the Bible. It's teaching is contradictory. That's no wander considering the time span during which the books were written and the beliefs of the middle-eastern/south asian people in the ancient times. God says "it's okay to kill to retaliate" in one place, "don't kill" in another place, "commit cruel genocide" in a third place, and "don't hate your neighbour it's equal to murder" in the forth place. What about consistency? I'm a bit confused here. "To kill or not to kill, that is the question".

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Let's stick with the textbook analogy a bit longer. A grade 7 (say) textbook will say some stuff that isn't technically true - it's a gross simplification, but its appropriate (hopefully) for the level it's intended for. By the time you finish year 12 those ideas have been refined, and the simplifications of the year 7 book have been superceeded. In the bible you have all the year levels rolled up into one volume.

I read John 3, for example, and it's quite clear. No simplistic interpretation is needed.

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Any text has to be interpreted and "quite clear" interpretations of John especially are dangerous things. What you have is a simplistic interpretation of John 3, taken from it's context within John , it's cultural contexts, etc. Any finite piece of text will only present part of the picture - the shorter the quote the the more that is true.

Here you come down to the real truth, ebia. This is YOUR philosophy of life. YOU think so. I don't.

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Of course - they would be no point in me telling you what you think. Surely you asked here to find out what Christians think and why.

ebia said:

Let's stick with the textbook analogy a bit longer. A grade 7 (say) textbook will say some stuff that isn't technically true - it's a gross simplification, but its appropriate (hopefully) for the level it's intended for. By the time you finish year 12 those ideas have been refined, and the simplifications of the year 7 book have been superceeded. In the bible you have all the year levels rolled up into one volume.

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Well, grade 12 and 7 maths textbooks are separate and are studied one 4 years after another (grades 8,9,10,11 in between). One does not learn the maths material of grade 12, then grade 1, then grade 7, for example. So, please explain where exactly, in your opinion, those gradual levels of increased truthfulness of teaching about God can be found in the Bible.

ebia said:

Any text has to be interpreted and "quite clear" interpretations of John especially are dangerous things. What you have is a simplistic interpretation of John 3, taken from it's context within John , it's cultural contexts, etc.

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Then please give me your correct interpretation so I can understand what you mean.

ebia said:

Of course - they would be no point in me telling you what you think. Surely you asked here to find out what Christians think and why.

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You are right. And I do appreciate your talking to me and trying to clarify things up!

AformerChristian said:

Hi MelissaShae! What about yourself, can you honestly say that you live as a person who TRULY believes most people around maybe including close family very soon will be burning in fire and tormenting eternally? (If you believe in a literal hell, of course). Do you think and live like that?

I did find.

It is easy to believe in this, but it is hard to prove it by facts.

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I do have some not-so-close family members who do not believe in God and do not follow Jesus Christ and yes they will go to hell. They know how I feel about it and that I am a christian and follow Christ and I know that they do not. We don't dwell on it but yes I believe they will go to hell. I can not change the rules that God has made. I don't like to think of anyone going to hell but that is a decision that they made when they denied Jesus. I do spread the gospel but I am not going to cram it down someone's throat either.

Where are the mistakes you have found?

I find no problem finding in my life where God has truly been with me and has guided me. Those are facts for me because they happened to me.

Dear Friend:

Thank you for your kind reply. I am not a pastor or minister, but actually computer programmer with not much to do this week. So I started browsing Christian forums. Someone on a different forum mentioned you posting and challenged Christians to respond.

So far I have found your postings to be quite challenging, but sincere. You said it in one of latest posts, “And I need help--I feel quite messed up and confused now.” I have to confess that even thou I have no trouble believing, there are times I have to say as that believer said to Christ, “Lord, I believe help thou my unbelief.” Mark 9:24.

You continually make statements about Christians, that sadly, I find quite true also. “Christians (that I've known) in some ways are so much hypocritical and selfish it makesme really sick, sorry.” I have felt and experienced myself that the biggest detriment to Christianity is the Christians themselves. I believe Ganhdi was considering the claims of Christ, but due to the lives of the Christians he observed, he was discouraged away. So your not the first to experience this. It is a sad commentary on Christians, but that will not excuse you before God.

I have picked some of your comments you made after my posting and would like to comment on them. I do like your subjective objective comments, keeps me on my toes.

The Bible was never intended to be a science book, but is surprisingly accurate concerning science, even if Christians misunderstood it.

“Contradictions with the modern knowledge about the solar system. The earth is a sphere, not flat rock standing on pillars with a glass-like dome around the earth with the sun, moon and stars revolving about it.” I am unaware of the Bible saying the Earth was flat, or stood on pillars, or a glass-like dome around it, or that the sun, moon and stars revolved around it. True the Roman Catholics in dark ages believed some of this, but it did not come from the Bible.
In fact, the Bible is the first place, thousands of years before science knew this or could observe this that:
1. The Earth hung in space – Job 26:7. He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, [and] hangeth the earth upon nothing. Now how could Job know that, unless God revealed that to him?
2. The Earth is a sphere - Isaiah 40:22 [It is] he that sitteth upon the {circle} of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Again how could the writer of this know this, unless God revealed this to him.

The Bible spoke of the cycling of water long before science understood the process: Ecclesisates 1:7 All the {rivers} run into the sea; yet the sea [is] not full; unto the place from whence the {rivers} come, thither they return again.
How could the writer know this, unless it was revealed to him?

Could the Bible be referring to the streams in the oceans, like the Gulf Stream, thousands of years before it was discovered? Psalms 8:8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, [and whatsoever] passeth through the paths of the {seas}. It is rumored that the man who discovered the sea currents knew of this verse and researched it to discover what we now know.

There are more examples that show that the Bible was actually thousands of years ahead of science. I challenge you to provide an example of a real error in the Bible versus modern science.


I’m gonna post this and continue tomorrow.

AformerChristian said:

Hello Everyone,

I used to be a Christian, but I have lost my faith. One might suggest I had never believed or was attracted by the sins of this world. It's not so.

I had been an active Christian for 15 years until very recently. Before I became a Christian I had been a muslim because I come from a muslim people living in Russia. I believed in Jesus Christ after hearing the preaching of missionaries from America who came to Russia soon after the fall of the USSR.

When I was a Christian, I went to Baptist churches most of the time. I traveled to many parts of the world for work and vacation (including numerous trips to Israel). I can speak 3 languages fluently. My main interests besides from my professional occupation are traveling, history and sports. I was involved in Christian ministry, including youth minitstry, evangelizing, translating Christian literature into my native languages. As much as I can judge myself, my faith was sincere.

To make the long story short, I became strongly disappointed in Christianity and Christians because I found many faults with this belief system and the way the absolute majority of its followers are acting. I have studied the Bible and the doctrines of different Christian denominations quite deeply. When my many-years long euphorea and self-deception about Jesus Christ and Christianity was gone, I was able to be honest with myself and see some really ugly things. As the result, probably I now look at the world more as an agnostic.

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Hi!

I would be happy to answer your questions, although I will say upfront that many people dislike my answers for various reasons. I hope you can see past this and hear me out.

Please tell me, if you can and want to:

1) Why do the absolute majority of Christians believe that the unbelievers are going to experience terrible torments in fire eternally AND at the same time, they do next to nothing about it? I mean sharing the 'good news', doing good works? Where is true faith? Where is true love?

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First of all, I'll quote from your introductory paragraph something I feel is pertinent to this question;

To make the long story short, I became strongly disappointed in Christianity and Christians because I found many faults with this belief system and the way the absolute majority of its followers are acting.

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The faults of Christians are the faults of fallen men, and no man is without fault. To base a judgement against a religion that one believes to be the true faith, in the true God and Creator of the world, on the followers of said religion, is to walk blindly into the downfall of whatever religion that may be. God is bigger than people, and as followers of The Lord, we need to measure up; none of us do, which is why we all need Grace.

2) Why the Bible is so inconsistent in its teaching, has many discrepances and factual mistakes AND at the same time called the perfect word of an allmighty God? Imperfect work of a perfect Being?

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Do you consider hermeneutics and exegesis to be something that one should judge based on modern science?

3) Why do the Christians exclude from salvation billions and billions of people who simply have not heard about the Christian Jesus (like my great grandparents who were muslims and very good, moral people) AND at the same time consider their God perfectly just and loving? A 'just' and 'loving' God doing the most unjust and cruel thing? How come?

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Salvation is no man's to give but Christ. Ultimately God will save whom He will save, and give mercy to whom He gives mercy.

19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”
(Exodus 33)

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I do continue to consider some of the moral teachings of the Bible as very valubale to the society and to respect my now former brothers and sisters in Christian faith who deserve to be respected. However, I no longer consider myself a Christian and do not want to be associated with Christianity in any way.

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Why not? What's caused you to change your view?

The reason I write here is to be heard and to hear responses.

My questions to you are really what I don't understand. Please help me see if I don't see something right.

THANK YOU for taking the time to read my story and I would really appreciate any opinions or answers to my questions.

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Any time, and thank you for posting here. I hope you don't take my post here in a bad way, it was meant in all honesty as an inquiry to you. I am curious as to what brought this change about.