Questions from a former Christian

Hello Everyone,

I used to be a Christian, but I have lost my faith. One might suggest I had never believed or was attracted by the sins of this world. It's not so.

I had been an active Christian for 15 years until very recently. Before I became a Christian I had been a muslim because I come from a muslim people living in Russia. I believed in Jesus Christ after hearing the preaching of missionaries from America who came to Russia soon after the fall of the USSR.

When I was a Christian, I went to Baptist churches most of the time. I traveled to many parts of the world for work and vacation (including numerous trips to Israel). I can speak 3 languages fluently. My main interests besides from my professional occupation are traveling, history and sports. I was involved in Christian ministry, including youth minitstry, evangelizing, translating Christian literature into my native languages. As much as I can judge myself, my faith was sincere.

To make the long story short, I became strongly disappointed in Christianity and Christians because I found many faults with this belief system and the way the absolute majority of its followers are acting. I have studied the Bible and the doctrines of different Christian denominations quite deeply. When my many-years long euphorea and self-deception about Jesus Christ and Christianity was gone, I was able to be honest with myself and see some really ugly things. As the result, probably I now look at the world more as an agnostic.

Please tell me, if you can and want to:

1) Why do the absolute majority of Christians believe that the unbelievers are going to experience terrible torments in fire eternally AND at the same time, they do next to nothing about it? I mean sharing the 'good news', doing good works? Where is true faith? Where is true love?

2) Why the Bible is so inconsistent in its teaching, has many discrepances and factual mistakes AND at the same time called the perfect word of an allmighty God? Imperfect work of a perfect Being?

3) Why do the Christians exclude from salvation billions and billions of people who simply have not heard about the Christian Jesus (like my great grandparents who were muslims and very good, moral people) AND at the same time consider their God perfectly just and loving? A 'just' and 'loving' God doing the most unjust and cruel thing? How come?

I do continue to consider some of the moral teachings of the Bible as very valubale to the society and to respect my now former brothers and sisters in Christian faith who deserve to be respected. However, I no longer consider myself a Christian and do not want to be associated with Christianity in any way.

The reason I write here is to be heard and to hear responses.

My questions to you are really what I don't understand. Please help me see if I don't see something right.

THANK YOU for taking the time to read my story and I would really appreciate any opinions or answers to my questions.

Hi.

Thank you for posting and asking these questions.

You will get different answers from different Christian groups. But here are my comments, but I’d like to answer them in a different order from the way you asked them

AformerChristian said:

3) Why do Christian exclude from salvation billions and billions of people who simply have not heard about the Christian Jesus (like my great grandparents who were muslims and very good, moral people) AND at the same time consider their God perfectly just and loving? A 'just' and 'loving' God doing the most unjust and cruel thing? How come?
.

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Catholics do not believe this. We believe God is merciful and just. We believe that people need to be baptised in order to come into God’s kingdom and be part of the body of Christ. However we recognise that there are many who, as you say, there are good people who try to follow a moral code and have not had the opportunity to hear the message of the Gospel.

Firstly we believe that those who desire baptism but die before being able to receive it do in fact receive the fruits of baptism. This quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (henceforth I use the initials CCC):
1259 For catechumens [those preparing for baptism]who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

We also believe that God extends this mercy to those who have not even had this opportunity:

Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery. Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity. (CCC 1260)

AformerChristian said:

1) Why do the absolute majority of Christians believe that the unbelievers are going to experience terrible torments in fire eternally AND at the same time, they do next to nothing about it? I mean sharing the 'good news', doing good works? Where is true faith? Where is true love? .

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I think Christians do seek to spread the Good News. You yourself were converted by missionaries from America, and in Russia, but I would accept we do not do as much as we should.

Pope Paul VI called for a new effort of evangelisation in 1975 with a document called Evangelium Nuntiandii – The New Evangelisation and said “The Church exists to evangelise”.

AformerChristian said:

2) Why the Bible is so inconsistent in its teaching, has many discrepances and factual mistakes AND at the same time called the perfect word of an allmighty God? Imperfect work of a perfect Being? .

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The Bible is the word of God, but it is not dictated by God as I understand Muslims believe the Koran is. God inspired spirit filled people to write in their own words, in their own culture, in their own style what he wanted to reveal to us about himself, about his plans for our salvation. It will not be factually correct in the sense of say scientifically correct. That is not it’s purpose. Again from our Catechism:

The inspired books teach the truth. Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures." (CCC 107)

We need to interpret the scriptures in the light of the context and purpose and style in which they were written.

Still, the Christian faith is not a "religion of the book." Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word is incarnate and living". If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."(CCC 108)

Dear FormerChristian. May I start by saying Christians are men and women who try to be as Jesus, our Friend and Leader, wants us to be, " to love God with all our being, and to love each other, as we love ourselves." We are human and we are weak, we have to ask forgiveness daily, and learn by trial and mistakes. Jesus Christ NEVER changes, He came to Earth, He paid the price God`s Holy Law demanded, and which we could not pay, we had moved too far away from God. Jesus reconciled us to God, and Jesus will help and guide us to Repent, to exchange our selfish and wilfull natures, into loving selflessly, and caring and forgiving natures. Jesus has done that for many men and women, and is still doing that, ther are thousands of Christians, who will testify to this. Jesus died for ALL, and those who have not heard about Him, God will make provision, God will never forget any man or woman, who has not had a fair chance of getting to know Him, we are God`s Creation, He made us in His image, and God loves us. Those of us who do not want to return to God, will end up in outer Darkness, where there will be loud wailing and gnashing of teeth; no doubt after realising, how wrong they chose. Christ is Christianity, we are His followers, and we are still learning to become perfect, as God is perfect. I say this humbly and lovingly, FormerChristian, and send greetings. Emmy, your sister in Christ.

Hello and welcome to CF !

I hope you enjoy your time here.

AformerChristian said:

Hello Everyone,

I used to be a Christian, but I have lost my faith. One might suggest I had never believed or was attracted by the sins of this world. It's not so.

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Well those are common reasons. And in most cases not too far off base.

I had been an active Christian for 15 years until very recently. Before I became a Christian I had been a muslim because I come from a muslim people living in Russia. I believed in Jesus Christ after hearing the preaching of missionaries from America who came to Russia soon after the fall of the USSR.

When I was a Christian, I went to Baptist churches most of the time. I traveled to many parts of the world for work and vacation (including numerous trips to Israel). I can speak 3 languages fluently. My main interests besides from my professional occupation are traveling, history and sports. I was involved in Christian ministry, including youth minitstry, evangelizing, translating Christian literature into my native languages. As much as I can judge myself, my faith was sincere.

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Sounds like you were quite involved. That can be both a blessing and a curse when you think about it.

To make the long story short, I became strongly disappointed in Christianity and Christians because I found many faults with this belief system and the way the absolute majority of its followers are acting. I have studied the Bible and the doctrines of different Christian denominations quite deeply. When my many-years long euphorea and self-deception about Jesus Christ and Christianity was gone, I was able to be honest with myself and see some really ugly things. As the result, probably I now look at the world more as an agnostic.

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Well I for one can vouch that many people who claim to be Christian are not.. for lack of a better way to put this.. living up to the ideal. I would say, I am one of them.

Please tell me, if you can and want to:

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I'll try, I am just a man, no better or worse then you, but I'll do what I can to explain this.

1) Why do the absolute majority of Christians believe that the unbelievers are going to experience terrible torments in fire eternally AND at the same time, they do next to nothing about it? I mean sharing the 'good news', doing good works? Where is true faith? Where is true love?

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There are many reasons for this, some of them do not believe that it is their job to spread the gospel, or to try and "convince" you, as you must first come seeking, and only then can they offer any guidance. After all, your faith and your belief do not come though me, but though God and Jesus.

Now if you look at Christians, we do a great deal, Red Cross, Christian Children's Fund, Peace Corps, Etc. to Try and spread the word, and bring the good news to others. However, not all, or shall I say, a great few are called to missionary work. For others, our job might be simple, to just live a good life and raise our children in a good home and show them the fruits of God and it's blessings upon them.

Even things like just being there for our parents, siblings, children, and our neighbors, as well as others around us, is an act of what we believe, and Christ in us.

Others are called to Apologetics, everyone is called to different way of life, and many just do not feeling a calling at all.

In the end, was your faith built on people, or on God?

2) Why the Bible is so inconsistent in its teaching, has many discrepances and factual mistakes AND at the same time called the perfect word of an allmighty God? Imperfect work of a perfect Being?

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I have no idea what you mean by this, I have not seen any of these problems or as you call them inconsistencies.

3) Why do Christian exclude from salvation billions and billions of people who simply have not heard about the Christian Jesus (like my great grandparents who were muslims and very good, moral people) AND at the same time consider their God perfectly just and loving? A 'just' and 'loving' God doing the most unjust and cruel thing? How come?

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Those that have not heard, as best we know are under a separate situation then those that have heard and rejected.

However, Moral is a matter of relative, as I would not be so brass as to say your parents were immoral, they like everyone else, where just people, with faults and shortcomings.

I do continue to consider some of the moral teachings of the Bible as very valubale to the society and to respect my now former brothers and sisters in Christian faith who deserve to be respected. However, I no longer consider myself a Christian and do not want to be associated with Christianity in any way.

The reason I write here is to be heard and to hear responses. I hope this is the right forum and my post would not be deleted.

My questions to you are really what I don't understand. Please help me see if I don't see something right.

THANK YOU for taking the time to read my story and I would really appreciate any opinions or answers to my questions.

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Well I am not sure if my answers have helped you at all, in any way, as it seems you have issues with these points, and I do not believe that any post on a message board will return you to "Faith", but, maybe I have given you some things to think about.

In the end, your life, your walk, your path, is your own, what you do with it, and how you walk it, is for you alone, and I nor anyone else can force you to be what you are not.

I wish you the best.

God Bless

Key

Hi AFC,
Thank you for giving us some background on your life. We get these questions a lot here, so it's refreshing to see that you're not just approaching it in accusation of our personal beliefs, but you have been through it yourself.

It's sad that you had such bad experiences with Christians. Honestly, it happens anywhere we go. I make a point to seek out people that embody what I'm looking for in Christianity. Sometimes their impact will change, but I try to base my church involvement less on denomination and more on the life I see expressed in the membership.

One church might reinforce my trust in prayer, another might lift my spirits, another might stand firmly on ethical treatment of others... like the crucial identities of the parts of the Body.

People have ups and downs, and are continually learning. One church might be beneficial, but go through trials or error the following year.

God may send me to learn something else from another congregation after that. I'm not referring to church-hopping, but being open to a continual learning experience, almost like cross-training, where we glean from a variety of believers' experience and knowledge.

Similarly, when I am disturbed by issues like exclusivism, I pursue the question. Take it up with God, not other Christians. We are just able to repeat what we have learned and experienced. If you're upset with God, tell Him!

There are several instances in the Bible where the faithful people were quite faithless, or battled with God on issues.

Jacob -- physically wrestled all night
Moses -- resisted leadership
Jonah -- let a sea creature swallow him instead of prophesying
Jeremiah -- fed up with being told to prophesy, when words rejected
Job -- didn't lose faith, but still debated through the experience
Jesus -- ["if possible, let this cup pass from me"]
Come to think of it, most of the patriarchs argued with God or other believers.

It's easier to just walk away and ignore your faith, than risk saying something an immense God wouldn't approve of.... creating conflict within your own faith. Just jump out and take that risk... ask God why the system seems unfair. Ask Him to make us more thougthful and considerate (please!).

AformerChristian said:

Hello Everyone,

I used to be a Christian, but I have lost my faith. One might suggest I had never believed or was attracted by the sins of this world. It's not so.

I had been an active Christian for 15 years until very recently. Before I became a Christian I had been a muslim because I come from a muslim people living in Russia. I believed in Jesus Christ after hearing the preaching of missionaries from America who came to Russia soon after the fall of the USSR.

When I was a Christian, I went to Baptist churches most of the time. I traveled to many parts of the world for work and vacation (including numerous trips to Israel). I can speak 3 languages fluently. My main interests besides from my professional occupation are traveling, history and sports. I was involved in Christian ministry, including youth minitstry, evangelizing, translating Christian literature into my native languages. As much as I can judge myself, my faith was sincere.

To make the long story short, I became strongly disappointed in Christianity and Christians because I found many faults with this belief system and the way the absolute majority of its followers are acting. I have studied the Bible and the doctrines of different Christian denominations quite deeply. When my many-years long euphorea and self-deception about Jesus Christ and Christianity was gone, I was able to be honest with myself and see some really ugly things. As the result, probably I now look at the world more as an agnostic.

Please tell me, if you can and want to:

1) Why do the absolute majority of Christians believe that the unbelievers are going to experience terrible torments in fire eternally AND at the same time, they do next to nothing about it? I mean sharing the 'good news', doing good works? Where is true faith? Where is true love?

2) Why the Bible is so inconsistent in its teaching, has many discrepances and factual mistakes AND at the same time called the perfect word of an allmighty God? Imperfect work of a perfect Being?

3) Why do Christian exclude from salvation billions and billions of people who simply have not heard about the Christian Jesus (like my great grandparents who were muslims and very good, moral people) AND at the same time consider their God perfectly just and loving? A 'just' and 'loving' God doing the most unjust and cruel thing? How come?

I do continue to consider some of the moral teachings of the Bible as very valubale to the society and to respect my now former brothers and sisters in Christian faith who deserve to be respected. However, I no longer consider myself a Christian and do not want to be associated with Christianity in any way.

The reason I write here is to be heard and to hear responses. I hope this is the right forum and my post would not be deleted.

My questions to you are really what I don't understand. Please help me see if I don't see something right.

THANK YOU for taking the time to read my story and I would really appreciate any opinions or answers to my questions.

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1. I think the only way to understand that is that Jesus says many will say to him Lord, Lord and he will say begone, I never knew you. There are many who seem to call themselves Christian for whatever reason, maybe it is clutural, but who show no sign of the love of God. Maybe in the end they will truly trust in the Lord, but their life so far certainly doesn't show it. I kind of have to conclude there are a lot of Christians by name only.

2. Well the Bible isn't really so inconsistent. Yes there are some clear textual errors especially in some of the numbers. But I do believe we are quite close to the original text at this time. Many so called errors are only such if one desires them to be errors.

Perhaps of course you are influenced by the myth that the Quran is perfect and all copies in Arabic are the same. That isn't true, google "Quran textual criticism".

3. Well Christians don't consign people to hell that's God's place. First, you say people haven't heard. I have a real problem believing that Muslims have not heard of God and of Jesus Christ. And that would include being at least somewhat familiar with what Christian teach. Are you saying you could have gone up to your grandparents and asked them about Christians and their beliefs about Jesus and your Grandparents would have had no idea what you were talking about?

The great quantities of people who have never heard seems mostly to be a myth. People generally hear at some point in their lives, they might not pay much attention and they might not recall, but there really isn't very many who never hear. If one never hears at all, that would tend to be because your ancestors have so rejected the true God that they drove away and destroyed the truth. Who your parents are and what thy do does have a bearing on your hearing the gospel. It doesn't guarentee salvation nor condemnation but certainly how much you hear will be influenced by those who came before you.

I would think you as a former Christian would understand that using the Bible only for moral teachings reduces it to simply a law. People can see much of the law from general revelation through nature, they understand their need for God, but instead of seeking him out, they create a religion based on law. You should notice that Islam is one such law based religion.

As a former Christian you should recognize that the law does not bring salvation, it has it's uses in this world such as restraining crime, but the law does not save anyone, it cannot, it can only condemn. Only the gospel saves, and the gospel is only revealed through the Bible.

You can take the morality of the Bible, or the morality of the Quran and they are very similar, but you can't compare the gospel of the two because the Quran does not have a gospel. People labor under the law hoping they would be good enough to warrant salvation. Salvation under such a system is a payment for service. You can see such a payment system at work in jihad. You do this and the teacher tells you you will earn salvation.

However, no one save God is good. No one is saved by works. To attempt to be saved by works is to have fallen from grace.

I think you never really understood or heard the Gospel. That Christianity was simply a different set of works, a different way for you to earn salvation, far from being a Sabbath rest, you found it a yoke of labor, and you looked down upon those who did not labor.

You know there's a lot of Baptists converting to Islam in places like Texas. They love the increased strictness, the extra rules. They think that is how one shows one is sincere.

I'm not surprised. There are always pietists and legalists and they love to look to the law as the marks of the church. You even an often here them talk of someone who hammers the congregation with law and condemnation and hellfire as someone who preaches the full gospel. See your proof of being Christian is your works that you did, but the real proof of being Christian is that you have faith that Jesus died for your sins. You didn't mention that.

So I kind of think you didn't experience true Christianity, but some form parading as it. Maybe the people taught it wrong, maybe you just took it wrong. I don't know, but I can't figure out why if you had a personal relationship with Jesus why you would reject him because some other people didn't get their relationship correct.

Kind of like divorcing your wife because your cousin didn't get along with his wife.

Marv

You know there's a lot of Baptists converting to Islam in places like Texas. They love the increased strictness, the extra rules. They think that is how one shows one is sincere.

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Texas? Really?

AformerChristian said:

1) Why do the absolute majority of Christians believe that the unbelievers are going to experience terrible torments in fire eternally AND at the same time, they do next to nothing about it? I mean sharing the 'good news', doing good works? Where is true faith? Where is true love?
2) Why the Bible is so inconsistent in its teaching, has many discrepances and factual mistakes AND at the same time called the perfect word of an allmighty God? Imperfect work of a perfect Being?
3) Why do Christian exclude from salvation billions and billions of people who simply have not heard about the Christian Jesus (like my great grandparents who were muslims and very good, moral people) AND at the same time consider their God perfectly just and loving? A 'just' and 'loving' God doing the most unjust and cruel thing? How come?

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Answer 1: Because the Bible teaches us that in order to get saved, you must believe in Jesus and live by the law.True faith is being able to stare down a loaded gun and asked to denounce Christ, and saying no. True love is going through everything to be with that person, and doing anything for that person.
Answer 2:What mistakes? Please name a few.
Answer 3:Acually I believe that if you have never heard of Hcrist but stilllead a good life, you get saved. But if you hear of him, and disbelieve, you are not saved

AformerChristian said:

1) Why do the absolute majority of Christians believe that the unbelievers are going to experience terrible torments in fire eternally AND at the same time, they do next to nothing about it? I mean sharing the 'good news', doing good works? Where is true faith? Where is true love?

2) Why the Bible is so inconsistent in its teaching, has many discrepances and factual mistakes AND at the same time called the perfect word of an allmighty God? Imperfect work of a perfect Being?

3) Why do Christian exclude from salvation billions and billions of people who simply have not heard about the Christian Jesus (like my great grandparents who were muslims and very good, moral people) AND at the same time consider their God perfectly just and loving? A 'just' and 'loving' God doing the most unjust and cruel thing? How come?

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1. Many Christians do share the "good news" but many times in falls on deaf ears so to speak. We are asked for absolute proof and then told that we are wrong for believing in Jesus and that there is no concrete proof for such a faith in God.

2. I have not found anything in the bible that is factually wrong. God's word is perfect just like God and it is man who makes mistakes.

3. Jesus said that the only way to God is thru him, so you can be good morally but if you don't follow Jesus Christ then you will not get to eternal life with God. It is very simple, Jesus died for our sins and if we don't recognize his suffering and his sacrafice for us then we don't recognize God and all he has given us. If we don't believe Jesus to be our Lord and Savior then how will he know us in the next life when in our natural life he was denied. Everyone has the chance to know God in this day and time and all you have to do is listen and you will hear him.

1) Why do the absolute majority of Christians believe that the unbelievers are going to experience terrible torments in fire eternally AND at the same time, they do next to nothing about it? I mean sharing the 'good news', doing good works? Where is true faith? Where is true love?

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Because Christians, like anybody else, aren't always very good at living up to the ramifications of what the profess to believe.

2) Why the Bible is so inconsistent in its teaching, has many discrepances and factual mistakes AND at the same time called the perfect word of an allmighty God? Imperfect work of a perfect Being?

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When you express complex, infinite, nuanced things through consise, written, limited, finite human language you get inconsistancies. The only way a finite book about God could be useful and consistant would be for God to be lesser than the book.

In choosing to communicate with limited beings (us) he has to work through that which we can understand (human language, expressed through human people).

Any factual discrepancies are irrelevent - God's purpose is not to communicate those facts, but to teach us about himself, creation, ourselves, and the relationships between those (intended and actual).

3) Why do Christian exclude from salvation billions and billions of people who simply have not heard about the Christian Jesus (like my great grandparents who were muslims and very good, moral people) AND at the same time consider their God perfectly just and loving?

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I don't exclude anyone from salvation, and it's not God's intentionto do so either. Jesus came to save the whole creation.

A 'just' and 'loving' God doing the most unjust and cruel thing? How come?

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He doesn't.

O don't know the answer to any of your questions. I just follow Jesus

There are 2 audios that would greatly help you grasp a better understanding of Christianity, vs the projected image of it.

http://www.livingwaters.com/listenwatch.shtml

http://www.livingwaters.com/listenwatch2.shtml


Many of your specifc questions will be answered there, but I can sum up..

1) Why do the absolute majority of Christians believe that the unbelievers are going to experience terrible torments in fire eternally AND at the same time, they do next to nothing about it? I mean sharing the 'good news', doing good works? Where is true faith? Where is true love?

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As the bible states, not everyone who cries "Lord, Lord" will enter into heaven. Jesus gave many parables about the sheep and the goats.

Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

2) Why the Bible is so inconsistent in its teaching, has many discrepances and factual mistakes AND at the same time called the perfect word of an allmighty God? Imperfect work of a perfect Being?

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Name them. I need to see specifics. Some of the OT reads as history, rather than men working under God's direction. While I believe there may be minor translation errors, its going to be a human error, not God's.

3) Why do Christian exclude from salvation billions and billions of people who simply have not heard about the Christian Jesus (like my great grandparents who were muslims and very good, moral people) AND at the same time consider their God perfectly just and loving?

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Is God just? Important question, because if God is just, He must punish evil. If He is perfect, He must punish all evil. God will by no means clear the guilty, and despite your attitude that your not running to sin, you still do it. Have you ever lied? If so, God will hold you accountable... Ever stole anything, used God's name as a curse word, looked in lust or hated? All evil will be removed from God's sight, because God is just and Holy.

God did provide a way for you to be forgiven. Unless you understand the baisc concept of what sin is and how God holds everything and everyone accoutable for every deed, you can't understand why you need forgiveness, which only depends on the One who took your punishement.

You, like many others did (myslef included) went through religious experiences without understanding the reason for Christ. I'm glad someone took the time to explain it to me...


Dan~~~>wishes you the best of luck

AformerChristian said:

1) Why do the absolute majority of Christians believe that the unbelievers are going to experience terrible torments in fire eternally AND at the same time, they do next to nothing about it? I mean sharing the 'good news', doing good works? Where is true faith? Where is true love?

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All Christians alike have the option to take the "good news" and apply it outside the church. Unfortunalty, we do get persecuted for doing that but we also, get a reward in Heaven for that. Its sad to know that Christians do not get out and proclaim the gospel but at the sametime its not the easiest thing in the world to do. Just because one doesnt proclaim the gospel doesnt mean another one doesnt. There is true faith out there, and there is true love out there you just have to find the dedicated Christian to show you that.

AformerChristian said:

2) Why the Bible is so inconsistent in its teaching, has many discrepances and factual mistakes AND at the same time called the perfect word of an allmighty God? Imperfect work of a perfect Being?

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I disagree with this 110%! The Bible is divided into two sections the Old Testament and the New Testament. The New Testament is what modern day churchs, and Christians follow. The Old Testament is what the Churchs before Christ came to the Earth through Mary and Joseph. So there is a difference yes in the teachings but there is also, a difference in the time period in which it all occured.

AformerChristian said:

3) Why do Christian exclude from salvation billions and billions of people who simply have not heard about the Christian Jesus (like my great grandparents who were muslims and very good, moral people) AND at the same time consider their God perfectly just and loving? A 'just' and 'loving' God doing the most unjust and cruel thing? How come?

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Again, I disagree. Christians out there are saving the World. They are traveling and preaching the gospel to all who want to hear it. Just because you are a good person does not make you a Christian. You have to except Christ into your heart and believe that he can forgive you of your sins. Muslim is a different culture that is how they were raised. If you had the chance where you live to become a Christian and there was a church then so did your Grandparents. They probably had oppurtunities to go to a Christian church and hear it. Someone may not directly tell you or invite you, but they have made it known that they are a Christian. (Like you). You said you were a Christian and your family I am sure knew that it was just a matter of whether or not they took it to heart or not.

Dear Friend:

I have read your post and the replies to your post with great interest because I believe there are many others who like you are disillusioned by what they see in Christianity and in those claiming to be Christians. I have met others who said they were Christians at one time and were no longer, and yet I think their definition of what is a Christian never matches up to what Christ says makes a person a Christian. I have that same fear with all your statements concerning what you once were. You said you were a Christian, but would God say you were, I have my doubts. It’s not what I say about myself, it’s what God says.

It will not be an easy thing to do to answer your questions to your satisfaction and many of the posts provided good responses but I would like to add additional thoughts to what has been said because I believe that God loves you very much and desires for you to have a real RELATIONSHIP with Him through His Son Jesus Christ.

Let me begin by saying that there are PROFESSING CHRISTIANS and POSSESSING CHRISTIANS and these two are not always one and the same. There are many who PROFESS to be Christians, who are not Christians at all. See Matthew 7:21- 23. It is sad, but perhaps the majority of those calling themselves Christians are really not true Christians at all. True Christianity is a RELATIONSHIP with God and Jesus, not a RELIGION. Too many self proclaiming “Christians” belong only to an organization and have never had a true personal salvation experience. Notice, Jesus says MANY will say to me in that day…and He will say, I NEVER KNEW YOU.

POSSESSING CHRISTIANS know the correct answer to this question: What makes a Christian a true Christian? I am not going to say the answer to this except to say, it is not belonging to any Christian denomination or organization or any amount of good works.

Much of what you say concerns your disillusionment, frustration and dissatisfaction with what I would say is the Christian organizations you were involved in and the people involved. You say you studied different denominations, was very involved in Christian works, etc. yet you found fault with this belief system and the way the majority were acting. Sadly, I think you may have found the Christian religion without having actually met the Christ of Christianity. I think you were self-deceived into thinking all that activity was what made or proved you were Christian, yet you had only substituted the religion of works of Islam for a religion of works of Christianity.

With that said, let me attempt to answer your three questions. I’ll start with 2 and 3 first since I think they are easier.

Question 2: Sorry, but I have not found any factual errors or inconsistencies in the scriptures. I have found that I may not understand or agree with what is being said, but I’m the problem not the scriptures or God. Praying for understanding usually clears up my problems. That’s where faith comes in. Sometimes my concepts of God and how I think God should work causes me to misunderstand. I think Job had a bit of this problem too. Perhaps you could provide some examples you’ve found.

Question 3: Sorry again, Christians do not exclude billions and billions of people. God did not give us that authority, we are responsible only for ourselves and then witnessing to others. We can’t save anyone or condemn anyone. Each person is responsible for themselves. God will be the one judging and determining the eternal destiny of every person. God has worked in the lives of each person in such a way that when they stand before Him: I Peter 1:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, {not willing} that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance”. Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.” I can only say this concerning your grandparents and you, God does not desire to condemn them or you, but your grandparents and you will be without excuse in that day.

Question 1: We believe that because God said it, we have to accept it. Matthew 7:13 “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” I take no comfort in the thought that my family are on the way to eternal separation from God, yet all efforts to tell them are rejected. That majority of Christians you accuse of not sharing or caring or doing good works, well maybe it’s because they are lacking the convicting influence of the Holy Spirit to tell others. Your right, “where is true faith?”…Sadly not in most Christian churches. Read Luke 18: 8 “I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?”

Now my friend, what about you? Are you going to reject what Jesus Christ did for you based upon looking at the lives of others who are just as lost as you? You will someday stand before God, you will live eternally either in Heaven or Hell. Do you still refuse God’s offer of salvation for you. Take your eyes off Christianity, take your eyes off other people, consider this God/Man Jesus who came to this Earth to die for your sins. When Jesus was on the cross, he had you in mind. Will you reject Him, because whatever Christianity you found did not measure up to what you think?

Consider this” Hebrews 10:29 “Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the {blood} of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

Hi Mr. Dave,
Welcome to the forum!

Too many self proclaiming “Christians” belong only to an organization and have never had a true personal salvation experience.

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So many churches have appealing services now, that I think a lot of people jump on the bandwagon to see what's going on. Not a bad thing, it just brings more observers into the mix.

There was a show on the Shakers this week -- they kept chairs around the perimeter of the dance floor sanctuary for visitors who were fascinated and wanted to watch them dance.

It takes time to absorb all of Christianity and develop the relationship, so there's a bit of patience required ... And also recognition that we are not all born with perfect logic and perfect comprehension skills and perfect health -- that will sometimes reflect in how believers come across. Some of us are stubborn, some refuse to listen and change, some have struggled so hard to make ends meet that they focus on the their own needs...

It's humbling, that we can't be perfect Christians... but it's also a good leveling factor.

I really appreciate all replies! I'm reading now and it will take me time to answer you guys.

winsome said:

Hi.

Thank you for posting and asking these questions.

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Hi winsome,

I've carefully read through your post. Thank you for explaining your beliefs. In my churches, they tought me terrible things about the Catholic church. I don't want to say what they were but you probably know what I'm talking about. I now don't agree with this view on your church. I wander - do they teach similar things in your church about others? You are right, not all Christians are hypocrites. That's why I said the majority, not all of them.

Emmy said:

Dear FormerChristian. May I start by saying Christians are men and women who try to be as Jesus, our Friend and Leader, wants us to be, " to love God with all our being, and to love each other, as we love ourselves." We are human and we are weak, we have to ask forgiveness daily, and learn by trial and mistakes. Jesus Christ NEVER changes, He came to Earth, He paid the price God`s Holy Law demanded, and which we could not pay, we had moved too far away from God. Jesus reconciled us to God, and Jesus will help and guide us to Repent, to exchange our selfish and wilfull natures, into loving selflessly, and caring and forgiving natures. Jesus has done that for many men and women, and is still doing that, ther are thousands of Christians, who will testify to this. Jesus died for ALL, and those who have not heard about Him, God will make provision, God will never forget any man or woman, who has not had a fair chance of getting to know Him, we are God`s Creation, He made us in His image, and God loves us. Those of us who do not want to return to God, will end up in outer Darkness, where there will be loud wailing and gnashing of teeth; no doubt after realising, how wrong they chose. Christ is Christianity, we are His followers, and we are still learning to become perfect, as God is perfect. I say this humbly and lovingly, FormerChristian, and send greetings. Emmy, your sister in Christ.

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Dear Emmy, I understand everything you are saying. I was teaching others similar things in the past. I simply do not believe in it now...

Key said:

Hello and welcome to CF !

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Hello Key and thank you!

Key said:

For others, our job might be simple, to just live a good life and raise our children in a good home and show them the fruits of God and it's blessings upon them.

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Again, my question is, how can anyone who has the least bit of compassion and reason, believe in eternal hell-burning AND do nothing about it?...... This I simply cannot understand. There must be some serious problem somewhere...

Key said:

In the end, was your faith built on people, or on God?

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On the Bible. But I got very disappointed in the Bible... Besides, the Bible and Christians say Christians are very special people: selected, saints, new creatures, children of God etc. Not so in life as I see it.

Key said:

Those that have not heard, as best we know are under a separate situation then those that have heard and rejected.

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Very vague. Seems like trying to justify something that cannot be justified.

Key said:

Well I am not sure if my answers have helped you at all,

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They certainly did! As well as answers of all others who posted here.

heron said:

Hi AFC,
Thank you for giving us some background on your life.

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Hi heron and thank you for your reply.

I also went not just to my own church or denomination. I traveled a lot so I have been to churches in many places.

heron said:

It's easier to just walk away and ignore your faith, than risk saying something an immense God wouldn't approve of.... creating conflict within your own faith. Just jump out and take that risk... ask God why the system seems unfair. Ask Him to make us more thougthful and considerate (please!).

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I am doing that. However, it's difficult to ask a God anything when you're not sure who he is and how he really sees you, if he exists. Do you understand me?