Questions for SDA?

TrustAndObey said:

Very good post Maco.

I believe that Jesus is co-eternal NOW but wasn't always.

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If He was not always then He cannot be now. Eternity reaches both forward and backward. The human race will never die but it will never be immortal. It's immortality will be derived from the only immortal being in the universe.

sentipente said:

They can't get it because it is just an opinion. You cannot prove any of this but there is evidence to the contrary.

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Show me one verse that says Jesus has the same knowledge as the Father? Just one is all I ask.

Show where we are called to worship or love the Holy Spirit? Just one is all I ask.

Show me the throne of the Holy Spirit? It doesn't have to be like the Father and His Son's throne as long as its a throne. I'll even be happy with a little stool next to the Father for the Holy Spirit.

The only way we can get knowledge of God is through Jesus (found in His book), the experiences of His people (found in His book), and nature. This gives a very incomplete picture, somewhat purposefully ("How do we know the Father? Know me and know the Father." or something like that).

I don't expect to know these unimportant details about God until I am in heaven.

JM

mjona3 said:

The only way we can get knowledge of God is through Jesus (found in His book), the experiences of His people (found in His book), and nature. This gives a very incomplete picture, somewhat purposefully ("How do we know the Father? Know me and know the Father." or something like that).

I don't expect to know these unimportant details about God until I am in heaven.

JM

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Amen, so we shouldn't make these a requirement to be baptized, but even more important, we shouldn't make these a requirement to be a Christian. I had one person tell that I couldn't bare the cross logo if I didn't believe in the Trinity God.

SDA's don't follow/require the Nicene creed. I beleive that among the things that we can be baptized with is one that isn't as explicitly trinitarian.

Note that the church as a whole is trinitarian (to the person asking questions).

JM

TrustAndObey said:

Okay, if you insist.

Look at this verse:

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

I don't believe for a second that "receiveth" in that verse could refer to not KNOWING we were taking it.

And notice that we also have to worship the beast.

What I always find interesting is how people talk about tattoos on our foreheads, etc. when the verses about this say it will be IN the forehead and IN the hand.

Thoughts and deeds.

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

I think it's two-fold. Completely giving in and turning away from God's law to give into satan's demands or not having a "cushy" life on earth.

Accepting a counterfeit.....knowingly.

Some people really do not feel like the Sabbath commandment still stands (which would mean food and drink were nailed to the cross too), but I believe they will know the full truth before given the choice to decide between God and Satan.

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Great post! Ignoring is also rejecting. However as you posted when Sunday Law is legislated and enforced, people will then receive the Mark of Beast by choice.

One thing I'd like to point out that I think is the key is the mark of beast is received by either belief or action.

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

However the mark/seal of God (the commandments) is receive by belief and action.

Deut 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

God requires both belief and action when the devil wants either of the two: don't believe but follow him anyway.

Just some food for thought.

God calls His people to come out of Babylon. We know this is spiritual having to do with the way one believes.

There are three things we can do to be part of spiritual Babylon. We can worship the beast, receive or except it's mark or we can worship it's image.

Now, what was the image of literal Babylon that the people were commanded to worship? It was the great image that Nebuchadnezzar errected that he called God and commanded all to bow down to it or be killed. Do you remember the three Hebrew boys who refused to bow down? They were thrown into the fiery furance and the heat was turned way up.

Now we know that the beast kingdom today is papal Rome. We can worship the beast itself, in other words, the papal seat. We can receive or except it's mark which is first day worship or we can worship its image. What was the image of literal Babylon? It was the statue errected by Nebuchadnezzar that he called God.

What was the image errected by papal Rome that we are called to worship of be killed? It's the image they made of God called the Trinity. If you refuse to bow down to the image of spiritual Babylon you will be killed.

Read about the crusades and the reason why millions of people were burned at the stake and murdered. It was for their rejection of the image errected by spiritual Babylon of a Trinity God.

Today they might not kill you but they will kill your character by calling you a non Christian brother and disfellowshiping with you for rejecting the Trinity.

I believe as end times move forward you will see the killing of people over the Trinity and the Sabbath just as it was in the dark ages.

Lord help us and help me for this post.

maco said:

Show me one verse that says Jesus has the same knowledge as the Father? Just one is all I ask.

Show where we are called to worship or love the Holy Spirit? Just one is all I ask.

Show me the throne of the Holy Spirit? It doesn't have to be like the Father and His Son's throne as long as its a throne. I'll even be happy with a little stool next to the Father for the Holy Spirit.

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Do you enjoy demonstrating what it means to be ridiculous? In a serious conversation it is out of place.

Maco, the belief in the trinity does appear to have some scriptural backing, although line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little....I do not believe that Jesus is equal to the Father, so I agree with you.

To accept that Jesus IS the Father is something Adventists should have a very hard time with, because they'd have to admit that our world was without Father God for three days...which is impossible since He is and always has been immortal.

Knowing what we do about death, the trinity should make no sense to us.

That being said, I've only met one Adventist that felt Jesus was the Father.

brimac said:

So, how do you think that it will occur that the Sunday sabbath will become the mark of the beast? I mean like how do you envision that happening?

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Look up "blue laws". There are already blue laws on the books that say we need to go to church on Sunday. It wouldn't take much to enact those laws and start enforcing them, which would make someone like me a fugitive on the run.

TrustAndObey said:

Maco, the belief in the trinity does appear to have some scriptural backing, although line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little....I do not believe that Jesus is equal to the Father, so I agree with you.

To accept that Jesus IS the Father is something Adventists should have a very hard time with, because they'd have to admit that our world was without Father God for three days...which is impossible since He is and always has been immortal.

Knowing what we do about death, the trinity should make no sense to us.

That being said, I've only met one Adventist that felt Jesus was the Father.

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Paul on several occassions wrote about the mystery of God. We must concede we don't know every aspect of the triune God. We in our finite understanding are not capable to comprehend an infinite diety. We need to caution ourselves on rushing into making any conclusions about the Godhead.

There is no doubt the Father, the Son and the holy spirit are three distinct personages. Yet the titles of the Three all apply to the Son according to Isaiah 9:6.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Is Jesus the Father? I don't think so. But then my opinion is irrelevant. For it is written...

Jesus was fully God and fully man. There is no doubt that He died on the cross. Guess which part died? Jesus the man.

The scriptures leave little doubt that Christ is equal to the Father.

The jews sought to kill Jesus because Jesus claimed to be equal to God.

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

The hebrew minds understood that the Son is equal to the Father.

And Paul under the inspiration certainly confirmed this equality.

Philippian 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Why of course Jesus when manifested in flesh was in submission to the Father. Because He set an example for us that not relying on His divinity but relying the Father's power, He who was made in the likeness of His brethrens was able to overcome sin. Something we must do to archieve a victorious life: total dependence on the Father.

With that said however it always boggles my mind when the Father speaks to the Son in Hebrews 1 that quotes Psalm 110, the Father spake in submission, praise and adoration.

Hebrews 1
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

The mystery of God, that the Bible is silent on, would remain in silence for our benefit, for now.
Let me know if this makes sense...

TrustAndObey said:

Look up "blue laws". There are already blue laws on the books that say we need to go to church on Sunday.

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Given the nature of American jurisprudence I don't think you will find one law on any books inthe US that mandate attendance at any church service on Sunday. If you are able to point me to one I would be very grateful.

There is not one character or writer who exhibits a complete understanding of the properties of the Creator. We need to incorporate this fact into our discussions. Simply saying "Paul said" does not mean we are citing an accurate rendering of the Creator.

TrustAndObey said:

Maco, the belief in the trinity does appear to have some scriptural backing, although line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little....I do not believe that Jesus is equal to the Father, so I agree with you.

To accept that Jesus IS the Father is something Adventists should have a very hard time with, because they'd have to admit that our world was without Father God for three days...which is impossible since He is and always has been immortal.

Knowing what we do about death, the trinity should make no sense to us.

That being said, I've only met one Adventist that felt Jesus was the Father.

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That is because you have a very hard time expanding your mind to the possibility to what God is. Stop trying to make God a person like you or I.

JM

sentipente said:

Given the nature of American jurisprudence I don't think you will find one law on any books inthe US that mandate attendance at any church service on Sunday. If you are able to point me to one I would be very grateful.

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Oh the "Blue Laws" exist alright, as far as I know every state has them on their books. These are the same laws that dictate whether a state allows liquor to be purchased on Sunday....which is how it is usually referenced to nowadays.

Point is, "Blue Laws", some call them "Morality Laws" are still on the books...same as there are some states where "spitting on the sidewalk" is still on their books, and if you tick off the town chief of police enough, he can use that charge against you, even if it hasn't been used in 100 or more years.

Therefore, simply because the "Blue Laws" seem to mainly focus on the sale of liquor on Sunday today, doesn't mean the rest of it couldn't be brought back to life.

The people in this country are like scared rabbits today. They believe, pretty much, anything and everything they read in the papers, and listen to on shows like Bill O'Reilly and Nancy Grace, and the news channels they watch at 6 and 11. They fail to realize that these "news agencies" are big business and they are in this business to MAKE MONEY, and they will use whatever means necessary to make it.

They long ago learned that "fear" is their best friend. Get the sheeple, oops I mean people good and fearful of something and they'll believe everything you tell them, and do exactly as you say.

One example that comes to mind is the topic of Sex Offenders. Just a quick "for instance" so you get the drift of the lies being told:

1. A sex offender will ALWAYS re-offend.

If that's the case then, why are 95% of all NEW sex cases perpetrated by someone who has never been convicted before???

2. Sex Offenders have the HIGHEST recidivism rate.

FALSE. 3.5-5% of sex offenders re-offend, as compared to 50-72% of those in the other criminal categories.

This information is FREELY and easily accessible by going to the Department of Justice's website. But sheeple, oops, I mean people would rather get their news at 6 and 11 while sitting in their easy chair, believing every exaggeration to downright lie they are being fed. Sex sells, blood and guts sells. Sensationalism is what the public is getting instead of journalism.

I've seen how the media has been able to create hysteria with the topic of sex offenders, they have people looking behind every bush for the boogeyman, when, again, the Department of Justice has the facts, and those are that of all children who have been sexually molested, 96% have been abused in their own homes. By family, friends of family, extended family, and others within their family's close circle.

So I have no problem, whatsoever, believing that this same media can help put the "going to church on Sunday" part of the Blue Laws into affect. No problem whatsoever. They'll find someway to use "fear" as the motivator.

SassySDA said:

Oh the "Blue Laws" exist alright, as far as I know every state has them on their books. These are the same laws that dictate whether a state allows liquor to be purchased on Sunday....which is usually it is referenced to nowadays.

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The claim was that we have laws that mandate church attendance on Sunday. It is that claim that I am exploring. If you have that information you have a responsibility to provide. Otherwise you are no better than the media types you have denounced in your post. We have to correct halftruths when they surface or we are no better than those we denounce.

I agree, I didn't use to think it would be possible any time soon in our republic. But after the changes that have went on in the 90s and 00s, and the rise of the religious right, I think that it is now possible.

I still don't know if now is the time for it, I mean, we are having enough troubles without it right now. Adding Sunday laws would just help some of the SDAs that are slipping.

JM

T&O wrote:

To accept that Jesus IS the Father is something Adventists should have a very hard time with, because they'd have to admit that our world was without Father God for three days...which is impossible since He is and always has been immortal.

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Why would that be? Is God limited to one place at one time? Could not humanity die without divinity dying? You can't just make statements like the above unless you are certain as to the nature of God. And we can't be certain, and it seems unreasonable for humans to assert that God can't do something.

Why do you think the Gospel says that Jesus said he would lay down his life and He would take it up again. If He took it up again even when He was dead it would seem that He was not divinely dead, which makes sense because of the definition of God is that He is immortal, and really there is no reason for God to die in any divine form because that would not tell us anything. While humanity is what we are really concerned about, that God can bring back to life a human is very important for our ability to trust God for salvation and the gift of life.

The problem most semi-arians have is that they assume that because Jesus limited himself as a human and called Himself the son of God that that is forever His position rather then His position during the incarnation, the way God revealed Himself at a specific time and place.