T
TrustAndObey
Guest
I live right on the Missouri border (in Arkansas)...about an hour and a half from Joplin. When I was growing up, I thought of it as a "huge city". LOL
Upvote
0
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
DJconklin asked:
1st: welcome to our forum! One question for you: which seminary? I went to the seminary at Andrews University in Berrien Spirngs, MI.
I went to Ozark Christian College in Joplin, MO.
Thats funny because Joplin is like 40,000 people and the town I live in has 100,000 and the one right down the road has 100,000 also!I live right on the Missouri border (in Arkansas)...about an hour and a half from Joplin. When I was growing up, I thought of it as a "huge city". LOL
Thats funny because Joplin is like 40,000 people and the town I live in has 100,000 and the one right down the road has 100,000 also!
I bet! I'm tired if big towns I'm gonna move to a small one!Well, you have to consider that I lived in a town with a population of 1,248! I was in the biggest graduating class they'd ever had (at the time) and there were 54 of us!
So really Joplin was pretty huge compared to THAT!
Ellen White was for the first fifty years (1844-1895) decidedly non-Trinitarian, especially with her clear statements that "Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty" (Lift Him Up, p.235). If she somehow "changed her mind" later, I would prefer the original doctrine of the SDA church and of Ellen White herself. It is noteworthy that her trinitarian statements occured after the death of her husband, who was clearly anti-trinitarian. I think that she was influenced by others in her "three divine beings" statements.
The expression "from the days of eternity... one with the Father" is not a trinitarian statement at all. Other Adventist writers (who opposed the Trinity) used the same language.
If the statement that "in Christ is life original, unborrowed, underived" is taken literally to mean that Christ is a self-existing being, fully independent from God the Father, it is a false statment that contradicts the Bible:
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself (John 5:26)
The life Christ has, was given to him by his Father, who is also his God. This means that Christ was not self-existing as God the Father is. ...
There already had been such a "progression" in the history of Christianity - from proper monotheism to the Trinity doctrine in the 4th century. I don't beleieve in such a "progression".
There are many statemants in Ellen White writings that contradict the Trinity doctrine (both orthodox trinity and the modern SDA version).
Here are statements that contradict the concept of a tripersonal Deity.
1.There is no "3rd divine Being (Person)" and no Trinity (or "trio"):
The Comforter is not a 3rd person, but the Son of God himself:
“Cumbered with humanity Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them to go to His Father and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself, divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit as the Omnipresent.” (Manuscript Release, vol. 14, p. 23)
The only being who was one with God lived the law in humanity, descended to the lowly life of a common laborer, and toiled at the carpenter’s bench with his earthly parent. (Ellen White, The Signs of the Times, October 14, 1897 par. 3)
The Father and the Son alone are to be exalted. (Ellen White, The Youth’s Instructor, July 7, 1898)
Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father—one in nature, in character, in purpose—the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. (Ellen White, Patriarchs and Prophets, page 34)
God and Christ are one (=united) in purpose, not one in "essence" ("substance") !
2.There was no Trinity (or "trio") in creation.
Concerning the "us" statements about man's creation, Ellen White wrote the same what early Christian authors declared and what all SDA pioneers believed - that God was talking to His Son, and not God talking to two persons who are God(s) too:
And now God said to His Son, “Let us make man in our image.” (Ellen White, The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 1, pages 24, 25)
3.The Father and the Son were not equal in authority.
The Son of God was next in authority to the great Lawgiver. He knew that His life alone could be sufficient to ransom fallen man. (Ellen White, Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 2, page 9, also in Lift Him Up, page 24)
His Son He had invested with authority to command the heavenly host." (E.G. White, the Story of Redemption, p.13.)
The statements above strongly contadict the Trinity doctrine.
- According to the Trinity doctrine, the Son is not the Holy Spirit; Ellen White stated that the Holy Spirit as the Comforter is Christ Himself.
- According to the Trinity doctrine there are three beings that made the plan of salvation; Ellen white declared that Christ was the only being who could enter into all the counsels and puroposes of God.
- According to the Trinity doctrine the Father and the Son are fully "co-equal" in power and authority; Ellen White stated the opposite, that the Son was second in authority and that God the Father invested him with this authority.
So it seems that Ellen White's writings contain clearly self-contradictory statements on the Deity question. Here we have a dilemma. But there is no need to accept the later position and to reject the original one, since the founders of the SDA church were all anti-trinitarians. The original position of the church on the Godhead (as well as its christology) was more consistent and was among the distinctive doctrines that made Adventism closer to original Christianity and clean of the central Catholic dogmas, borrowed in Protestantism.
Trinitarian dogma requires such a christology that makes Christ's temptations, suffering, death and resurrection only apparent but not actual - God could not be tempted, could not suffer physical pain, could not die. This affects the whole doctrine of salvation.
The original SDA position about God and Christ is more consistent, it is in complete harmony with the other doctrines of the church (soul's mortality, importance of obedience to God's law, Christ role as a Mediator in heaven).
Co-eternal means they can't die, ever.
My Bible says there is only one who has immortality and it's not Jesus.
My Bible tells me that Jesus died.
My Bible tells me that Jesus now has immortality which means at one point He didn't have it.
Co- eternal, Co-equal means they have the same power and authority and never once did one have less than the other, not even for a minute.
My Bible tells me that the Father is greater than the Son.
My Bible also tells me that the head of woman is man, the head of man is Christ and the head of Christ is God.
My Bible even tells me that in the everlasting kingdom the Father will continue to have authority over the Son.
My Bible tells me that Jesus has no authority to give the seat to His left or to His right to any one of His disciples.
Co-eternal, Co-equal and having all knowledge tells me there was never a time when they all didn't have the same knowledge, not even once.
My Bible tells me that Jesus does not know the time of His second coming, only His Father knows.
My Bible tells me that Jesus had to grow in wisdom.
My Bible tells me that the Father taught the Son.
My Bible tells me that the one who did all the miracles through Jesus was God.
Side notes
My Bible tells me that all the fullness of God dwelt in Jesus.
My Bible also tells me that the fullness of God can dwell in us.
My Bible tells me that Jesus was one with the Father.
My Bible also tells me that Jesus' prayer is that we would be one with the Father just as He is one with the Father.
All I'm doing is quoting from the Bible so don't stone the messenger.
I believe in the Trinity so I must be stoned already....NOT
I am sure there are some who hold to that view. Whether it is typical is another question. God's ability to "wink at" always poses trouble for views on condemnation.Is the belief that Sunday is the mark of the beast still the typical view and if so would that imply that those who do not keep the Saturday sabbath are condemned?
Is the belief that Sunday is the mark of the beast still the typical view and if so would that imply that those who do not keep the Saturday sabbath are condemned?
tell me more!I definitely think Sunday is satan's counterfeit for God's holy day of commandment.
However, I do not believe that anyone has accepted the mark of the beast, and when they do, they'll do it willingly and with full knowledge of what they're doing.
It won't be a secret chip implanted into their bodies.
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
When it comes down to staying true to God or not being able to buy or sell, I'm sure that some people will sell out under the guise of surviving...without really thinking about eternal survival.
Ellen White was for the first fifty years (1844-1895) decidedly non-Trinitarian, especially with her clear statements that "Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty" (Lift Him Up, p.235).
If she somehow "changed her mind" later, I would prefer the original doctrine of the SDA church and of Ellen White herself. It is noteworthy that her trinitarian statements occured after the death of her husband, who was clearly anti-trinitarian. I think that she was influenced by others in her "three divine beings" statements.
The expression "from the days of eternity... one with the Father" is not a trinitarian statement at all. Other Adventist writers (who opposed the Trinity) used the same language.
If the statement that "in Christ is life original, unborrowed, underived" is taken literally to mean that Christ is a self-existing being, fully independent from God the Father, it is a false statment that contradicts the Bible:
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself (John 5:26)
The life Christ has, was given to him by his Father, who is also his God. This means that Christ was not self-existing as God the Father is. ...
There already had been such a "progression" in the history of Christianity - from proper monotheism to the Trinity doctrine in the 4th century. I don't beleieve in such a "progression".
There are many statemants in Ellen White writings that contradict the Trinity doctrine (both orthodox trinity and the modern SDA version).
Here are statements that contradict the concept of a tripersonal Deity.
1.There is no "3rd divine Being (Person)" and no Trinity (or "trio"):
The Comforter is not a 3rd person, but the Son of God himself:
Cumbered with humanity Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them to go to His Father and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself, divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit as the Omnipresent. (Manuscript Release, vol. 14, p. 23)
The only being who was one with God lived the law in humanity, descended to the lowly life of a common laborer, and toiled at the carpenters bench with his earthly parent. (Ellen White, The Signs of the Times, October 14, 1897 par. 3)
The Father and the Son alone are to be exalted. (Ellen White, The Youths Instructor, July 7, 1898)
Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Fatherone in nature, in character, in purposethe only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. (Ellen White, Patriarchs and Prophets, page 34)
God and Christ are one (=united) in purpose, not one in "essence" ("substance") !
2.There was no Trinity (or "trio") in creation.
Concerning the "us" statements about man's creation, Ellen White wrote the same what early Christian authors declared and what all SDA pioneers believed - that God was talking to His Son, and not God talking to two persons who are God(s) too:
And now God said to His Son, Let us make man in our image. (Ellen White, The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 1, pages 24, 25)
3.The Father and the Son were not equal in authority.
The Son of God was next in authority to the great Lawgiver. He knew that His life alone could be sufficient to ransom fallen man. (Ellen White, Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 2, page 9, also in Lift Him Up, page 24)
His Son He had invested with authority to command the heavenly host." (E.G. White, the Story of Redemption, p.13.)
The statements above strongly contadict the Trinity doctrine.
- According to the Trinity doctrine, the Son is not the Holy Spirit; Ellen White stated that the Holy Spirit as the Comforter is Christ Himself.
- According to the Trinity doctrine there are three beings that made the plan of salvation; Ellen white declared that Christ was the only being who could enter into all the counsels and puroposes of God.
- According to the Trinity doctrine the Father and the Son are fully "co-equal" in power and authority; Ellen White stated the opposite, that the Son was second in authority and that God the Father invested him with this authority.
So it seems that Ellen White's writings contain clearly self-contradictory statements on the Deity question. Here we have a dilemma. But there is no need to accept the later position and to reject the original one, since the founders of the SDA church were all anti-trinitarians. The original position of the church on the Godhead (as well as its christology) was more consistent and was among the distinctive doctrines that made Adventism closer to original Christianity and clean of the central Catholic dogmas, borrowed in Protestantism.
Trinitarian dogma requires such a christology that makes Christ's temptations, suffering, death and resurrection only apparent but not actual - God could not be tempted, could not suffer physical pain, could not die. This affects the whole doctrine of salvation.
The original SDA position about God and Christ is more consistent, it is in complete harmony with the other doctrines of the church (soul's mortality, importance of obedience to God's law, Christ role as a Mediator in heaven).
Very good post Maco.
I believe that Jesus is co-eternal NOW but wasn't always. Our fundamental belief in no way says otherwise.
They can't get it because it is just an opinion. You cannot prove any of this but there is evidence to the contrary.God is three in one yet He is one not three. All three are co-eternal, in other words, they are one not three yet they are three and have always been three not one. Three separate co-eternal ones that make up one not three. Can't you guys get it? It's so easy.
I need a drink of unfermented grape juice...
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?