Questions for Jews

[Jacob/Ephraim]

Hello-Im new to this forum so bear with me. I am interested to know if

1. Jews have a different version of the story of Abraham and Isaac in their "bible"

2. What Jews think about this story (i.e.) do you see why we Christians think it symbolizes Jesus?

Ephraim

 

[iitb]

Well, the answer to number 1 is "no." Same bible, same story. As for #2, I'll leave that to a non-messianic to answer. *glances at INOrder*

 

[Jacob/Ephraim]

thank you for the reply-this has often bothered me. Because I have heard Jews say that God was angry at Abraham for obeying and offering up Isaac-and that is ludicrous because in the Bible God seems overjoyed that he obeyed-and He swears to bless him.

Whats more, what kind of jerk would command a man to slay his son-and then wait till he does it and then get angry at him for obeying a very tough command? It isnt as if Abraham wanted to sacrifice his son. And God isnt a jerk-so I think it symbolizes Jesus being sacrificed.

"since you have not withheld your SON YOUR ONLY SON in blessing I will bless you"

 

[Jacob/Ephraim]

ummm actually I think I posted this in the wrong forum-can you move this to "Jewish debates" sir?

thank you

 

[iitb]

ummm actually I think I posted this in the wrong forum-can you move this to "Jewish debates" sir?

thank you

Actually, I moved it from Jewish debates, as you have to be practicing some flavor of Judaism to post there.

 

[INOrder]

Hello Jacob/Ephraim

first I would like to ask if you are affiliated with the ephraimite movement that begun in Brittain?

Concerning your first question
I do not believe there is any other versions different from the Jews other than that written or held by the moslems.

Concerning your second question
I have still much more study ahead of me and so I don't know and I have never come across any Traditional Jew or in our Torah Masters (the sages) writtings that would have ever said such a thing as that G'd was angry with our father Abraham.

However, there are many things concerning Isaac that he is the Akeda. Judaism recognizes that Isaac had undergone the sacrifice and gave himself willingly of his own accord and the salvation of the Jewish people was accomplished in what Isaac had done.

I can see how this story can be applied to Jesus [but it does not speak about Jesus], but the Jews do not need another person to die for them. Maybe Jesus died for a different people other than the Jews.

bye

 

[Woodsy]

1. Jews have a different version of the story of Abraham and Isaac in their "bible"

You must be thinking of Muslims. In the Koran, it says that God told Abraham to take Ishmael (not Isaac) and sacrifice him. Because the Muslims believe that Ishmael (their forebear) was the favored son of Abraham (as Abraham's firstborn son).

 

[Woodsy]

An interesting thing I heard pointed out once is that after this incident, we never hear of God speaking to Abraham again, as though the incident damaged their relationship.
Jewish tradition tends to be more ambivalent about many incidents than Christians.

 

[simchat_torah]

2 things...

I don't think Ephramite is of the Ebionites and secondly...
Tribe, it is truly good to see you posting again

 

[Woodsy]

Tribe, it is truly good to see you posting again

That was good to hear this morning, Simchat_Torah! Toda raba!

 

[Achichem]

Well JE,

Though it is true both Christians and Jews have the same story, they look at them in extremely different lights. As you have demonstrated.

You see from a Jewish perspective:
1) Abraham lived in a time were it was very common of a god to ask for the first born son to be sacrificed, and so it is assumable that though Abraham might have inwardly known it to be wrong, he was in all likelihood grudging acceptant common practice of the day a hence did not challenge G-d on the matter as was his responsibility(and the reasons G-d ask it of him, was to make a ponit).

2) Abraham and Sara were both well known for their willingness to challenge G-d on issues that they felt were unmoral (a common theme with the family); Abraham in this case said nothing, which shows something was different. This a man who defended sinful people, yet not his own son?

3) The Torah hints at Abraham and Sara’s marriage being greatly compromised by the events, which show some of the negative connotations of it.

4) The most important fact was that G-d Stopped Abraham from his sacrifice, and hence made a statement to all generation after him, of how unacceptable it was.

5) The torah says outright the practice of “sacrificing a child to G-d” is the greatest of pagan sin, and in G-d's own word he said he “hates” such things. The story is put in context of the torah as a whole.


So indeed Jews as well as I see that Abraham actions were wrong in this case, and he should have argued for the life of his son.

We view that he didn’t and sufferer the consequences (in his marriage and latter relationship with his son). Our view of the importance of this event are not that actions but the fact that God STOPPED Abraham as actions speaks louder then words.

Does this mean that to believe Jewish view is to nullify Jesus and his connection to this event? Clearly not, as there are many people in this forum that think and act more Jewish then I, and see the connection and no nullification. But those are some of the reasons to why many non-messianic Jews view this event in such different light.

Blessings,
And please keep in mind I can’t debate you,
Datsar

 

[Mordechai18]

We Jews call this incident the "Akedah" which means "the binding." As in the binding of Isaac.
Jews consider this incident one of the most troubling in all of Torah.
After the incident, we see a changed relationship between G-d and Abraham (do they ever speak to each other after this incident?), a changed relationship between Abraham and Isaac (do they ever speak to each other after this incident?), and Sara dies shortly afterwards.
Some believe that G-d was disappointed in Abraham, as someone else mentioned, for not protesting to save his son's life.
Very troubling and without any pat, easy answers.


As a side note:
The word "holocaust" means "burnt offering" as in a sacrifice upon an altar. I recently saw a website whose main page featured Abraham and Isaac walking up the mountain. The quote which it displayed was of after Isaac asked where the sacrifice was, and Abraham replies that G-d will provide the sacrifice for the holocaust. Interesting to look at it that way. I think this might help to support the idea that the suffering servant of the so-called Messianic psalms is actually the Jewish people, rather than an individual.
If we look at the Holocaust as just that: a holocaust; a burnt offering upon the altar to G-d. For after that holocaust, we were delivered to Eretz Yisrael - the land of Israel.
Especially if we think on the fact that the Nazis burnt the Jews in ovens so that the aroma travelled up to G-d.

Just my thoughts of possibilities here.

 

[simchat_torah]

HAHAHAHAH... I love your signature Mordy....


on a side note, I think I'll start a thread concerning the Akidah soon. Will be an interesting discussion... and I invite you to join me at that time.

shalom,
yafet

 

[Mordechai18]

HAHAHAHAH... I love your signature Mordy....

Thanks! I guess you have heard that Mahathir Muhammad has endorsed Kerry, right?

on a side note, I think I'll start a thread concerning the Akidah soon. Will be an interesting discussion... and I invite you to join me at that time.

Very good.

 

[iitb]

on a side note, I think I'll start a thread concerning the Akidah soon. Will be an interesting discussion... and I invite you to join me at that time.

Well, if you don't, I will. The possibility of Yitzchak having actually been sacrificed is something I've been meaning to bring up! I doubt there's enough on that to carry an entire discussion, though.

 

[simchat_torah]

Oh trust me Justin.... I've got enough for 5 pages on my own.