Questions for Calvinsts

Awaken4Christ · Nov 4, 2014

Metal Minister said:
If God draws a person, and they can thwart that drawing, it is a failure of God. He has no failures. Therefore any He draws, come to Him. John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Job 42:2
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+42:2&version=ESVI know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted."

God is in control, anyone who is Christian and has read enough of the BIble understands this. But Why must we be so divided about "higher Knowledge"? It may be easier for the Calvinist to lump every Non-Calvinist in the same group. But is it the right choice?

At the same time Calvinists OR Non- Calvinists can't just have fellowship with heretical or false doctrine groups. So If there is to be fellowship among Calvinists and Non-Calvinists. It will be a very "In-House" fellowship. I use that word in a very conservative sense.

I honestly think Paul washer is on the right track and a lot of Calvinists and Arminians could learn something from him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXA5UOkLTyo

Choosethisday · Nov 4, 2014

JM
I still think you don't understand what we believe. We have spent a great deal of time and energy, God's time and energy, going back and forth on this. We will all someday give an account to God for how we have used His resources, including time and energy. So I am going to do my best not to be drawn back into arguing. We have both agreed this is a non essential so it doesn't have to be decided this side of eternity.

So anyway, one of my favorite bloggers, Roger Olson, just blogged about a new book, Prevenient Grace: Gods Provision for Fallen Humanity. This book sounds very interesting and so I will try to come up with the time to read. If you really want to understand where we are coming from you might also want to read it. Go to patheos dot com, then blogs, and then find Roger Olsen.
Who knows, maybe you will become an ex Calvinist.

JM · Nov 5, 2014

I get it. But if you don’t want to be drawn into an argument you probably shouldn’t call me out by name…and try drawing me into an argument. Lol

Good luck my Arminian friend. If God doesn’t predestine all that comes to pass you’re going to need it.

jm

Choosethisday · Nov 5, 2014

I called you out by name because you were the last to say something that seemed directed toward me. Agreed, let's meet up some day in eternity when we see clearly. God be with you my friend.

Choosethisday · Nov 5, 2014

JM
I was just listening to a radio program and there was a guy on there talking about Calvinism and Arminianism. Apparently he said something yesterday that he was concerned some Calvinists might think unfair. He invited Calvinists to call in so they could explain why they might object to his arguments. The program is on from 2 to 3 pacific time and the program is called The Narrow Path. He answers questions or converses on many subjects so if you want a chance argue your view this might be a good venue. If you want to just listen you could look up a station in your area or just stream the program.

JM · Nov 5, 2014

Choosethisday said:
JM
I was just listening to a radio program and there was a guy on there talking about Calvinism and Arminianism. Apparently he said something yesterday that he was concerned some Calvinists might think unfair. He invited Calvinists to call in so they could explain why they might object to his arguments. The program is on from 2 to 3 pacific time and the program is called The Narrow Path. He answers questions or converses on many subjects so if you want a chance argue your view this might be a good venue. If you want to just listen you could look up a station in your area or just stream the program.

Thanks for the heads up on the program. I have neither the time nor desire to argue because we are dealing with worldviews and not specific texts. Is God sovereign and if so what does that mean? That's really the bottom line. I can't change anyone's mind all I can do is pray, use scripture to support my assertions and deal with those who differ in a scriptural, God honoring way. It really is about how we approach and not individual texts.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Choosethisday · Nov 5, 2014

I understand. Although obsessing and arguing over how many angels can dance on the point of a pen might be fun it isn't our primary mission. I try to direct my energies and resources to fulfilling Jesus's last command to make disciples of all peoples.

JM · Nov 5, 2014

Choosethisday said:
I understand.

We have plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Although obsessing and arguing over how many angels can dance on the point of a pen

that would be pin not pen...

might be fun it isn't our primary mission.

Most of my posts are music or pub related. Nice try.

I try to direct my energies and resources to fulfilling Jesus's last command to make disciples of all peoples.

And who was that command given to? Proof text without a context is just a pretext.

jm

Choosethisday · Nov 5, 2014

Your tone could be taken as aggressive while I was trying to bring levity to what has at times been somewhat combative. Maybe I was too subtle in my attempt at humor. Sorry for the miscommunication.

Mathew 28:19 is the last command given to us by Jesus. I see it as our "marching orders". And in case you wonder about my use of "peoples" instead of nations allow me to explain. The Greek word used there is the word ethnos, from which we get our English word ethnic. It is translated nations in most versions but it actually doesn't refer to what we in the west think of as nations, i.e. geopolitical nation states, but rather a large group of culturally similar people. This from all of my work with foreign missions.

Finally, look up YRR as it relates to the reformed movement.
Blessings (really)

skypair · Nov 6, 2014

JM said:
Is God sovereign and if so what does that mean?

God is sovereign over the outcomes/consequences of all the men do. It's kind of the idea that, in the end, God wins, right? For this time, God's natural and spiritual laws "control" nature and His mercy is available to those who ask for it acknowledging Him as God.

Furthermore, we can see in scripture that God can "control" (predestine) those who are saved. By fellowship with God, He can direct our steps into His way or plan. And so the Bible is about just such folks, isn't it? Men with whom God made covenants, for instance Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, etc. such that there are dispensational timeframes in God's plan.

skypair

skypair · Nov 6, 2014

Metal Minister said:
These 2 posts denote a distinct ignorance of Calvinism. I HIGHLY suggest watching the videos I posted earlier so you can clear up your misconceptions. (If necessary, let me know and I'll repost the link. ) Calvinists believe (as I posted) that God is the only moving part in salvation in that we as humans, being fallen and loving our sin, would never willingly choose God. It is only through God's will that our heart of stone is changed to a heart of flesh.

You have seriously misjudged me, MM. I realize that those are exactly your beliefs. Principally, if we don't "move," IOW turn or repent, He will not change our heart. The "what shall we do" to be saved (Acts 2:37) is this: "Repent and be baptized [by the Spirit] in the name of Jesus Christ .. and receive [regeneration]." Regeneration is what receiving the Holy Ghost is. Upon our turning, we are immersed in the Spirit and then He is in us as new life life from the dead.

God as the only "moving part" would make us inanimate objects, MM. Do you see that? He might give us a new heart but it would not change the fact that we are inanimate inside and out unable to do anything without His physically moving us.

skypair

Metal Minister · Nov 6, 2014

skypair said:
You have seriously misjudged me, MM. I realize that those are exactly your beliefs. Principally, if we don't "move," IOW turn or repent, He will not change our heart. The "what shall we do" to be saved (Acts 2:37) is this: "Repent and be baptized [by the Spirit] in the name of Jesus Christ .. and receive [regeneration]." Regeneration is what receiving the Holy Ghost is. Upon our turning, we are immersed in the Spirit and then He is in us as new life  life from the dead.

God as the only "moving part" would make us inanimate objects, MM. Do you see that? He might give us a new heart but it would not change the fact that we are inanimate inside and out unable to do anything without His physically moving us.

skypair

Can a dead man choose to do or be anything else?

skypair · Nov 6, 2014

Metal Minister said:
Can a dead man choose to do or be anything else?

This gets to the issue of what part of man is "dead" and the doctrine of the nature of man. Man was created in the image of God with soul (conscience), spirit (mind, emotions, and will), and body (flesh) correlating to Father, Spirit, Son.

Here's a little something that Calvin didn't teach and that causes so many Calvinists to miss the scriptural meaning of "dead." Calvin did not take account of the soul of man. Yet it is the soul that dies when we sin, Ezek 18:20. In fact, it is the soul where sin guilt and sin nature resides which is why we lose fellowship with God in the first place!! And it is this "sin" guilt and nature that has to be forgiven before one can be made alive.

The spirit remains alive throughout. In fact, it was the living spirit of Lazarus that responded to Jesus command to come forth! The spirit of man still receives input, considers it (mind) and makes decisions about how to apply the input (will or "heart") the gospel of Jesus Christ, for instance.

If the spirit chooses to believe and apply the gospel (and both are choices that WE make not gifts), we make application the best we know how. For Calvinists, the "best they know how" is just to believe the gospel and believe they are, therefore, saved. Their spirit/mind was not any more dead than the Arminian's. They just think that their application (believe) is more correct than the Arminian (believe and repent calling on the name of the Lord for salvation).

Do you see how this idea of "spiritually dead" is that God has to "quicken" you first. Actually, God doesn't quicken you until you have chosen to trust His Word and repent turning to Christ for salvation. (Acts 2:38) This allows God to put His Spirit in us replacing our sin nature with His own nature Christ's mind/Spirit (1Cor 2:16) in charge over our mind/spirit. See, our spirit doesn't go away and sometimes still chooses sin over righteousness in its thinking and behavior. But now because of our "pure" soul or conscience (1Jn 3:9), we no longer want to sin in our heart. So God's righteousness in our soul makes us OSAS.

I hope you will have questions for me about this because it will be something that you are totally unaware of as a Calvinist.

skypair

Metal Minister · Nov 6, 2014

skypair said:
This gets to the issue of what part of man is "dead" and the doctrine of the nature of man. Man was created in the image of God with soul (conscience), spirit (mind, emotions, and will), and body (flesh) correlating to Father, Spirit, Son.

Here's a little something that Calvin didn't teach and that causes so many Calvinists to miss the scriptural meaning of "dead." Calvin did not take account of the soul of man. Yet it is the soul that dies when we sin, Ezek 18:20. In fact, it is the soul where sin guilt and sin nature resides which is why we lose fellowship with God in the first place!! And it is this "sin"  guilt and nature  that has to be forgiven before one can be made alive.

The spirit remains alive throughout. In fact, it was the living spirit of Lazarus that responded to Jesus command to come forth! The spirit of man still receives input, considers it (mind) and makes decisions about how to apply the input (will or "heart")  the gospel of Jesus Christ, for instance.

If the spirit chooses to believe and apply the gospel (and both are choices that WE make  not gifts), we make application the best we know how. For Calvinists, the "best they know how" is just to believe the gospel and believe they are, therefore, saved. Their spirit/mind was not any more dead than the Arminian's. They just think that their application (believe) is more correct than the Arminian (believe and repent calling on the name of the Lord for salvation).

Do you see how this idea of "spiritually dead" is that God has to "quicken" you first. Actually, God doesn't quicken you until you have chosen to trust His Word and repent turning to Christ for salvation. (Acts 2:38) This allows God to put His Spirit in us replacing our sin nature with His own nature  Christ's mind/Spirit (1Cor 2:16) in charge over our mind/spirit. See, our spirit doesn't go away and sometimes still chooses sin over righteousness in its thinking and behavior. But now because of our "pure" soul or conscience (1Jn 3:9), we no longer want to sin in our heart. So God's righteousness in our soul makes us OSAS.

I hope you will have questions for me about this because it will be something that you are totally unaware of as a Calvinist.

skypair

Where did you get this? I am unaware of your theology nearly in its entirety. I'll ask again, are you an open theist? http://www.theopedia.com/Open_theism

skypair · Nov 6, 2014

Metal Minister said:
Where did you get this? I am unaware of your theology nearly in its entirety. I'll ask again, are you an open theist?

The Bible, MM. It is obvious that Calvin never taught this stuff and it might just blow your mind. So let's just say "adieu."

skypair

Metal Minister · Nov 6, 2014

skypair said:
The Bible, MM. It is obvious that Calvin never taught this stuff and it might just blow your mind. So let's just say "adieu."

skypair

Calvin wouldn't have taught it, because it's not biblical. Also, I didn't start as a Calvinist, I became one through debate and study with other Christians.

Choosethisday · Nov 6, 2014

JM
Quick question, not trying to argue or anything. I am not an open theist. However, what skypair posted does not seem connected with what I have heard open theists say. What is it about what he said would make you connect it to an open theist view?

skypair · Nov 7, 2014

Metal Minister said:
Calvin wouldn't have taught it, because it's not biblical. Also, I didn't start as a Calvinist, I became one through debate and study with other Christians.

OK, sorry I didn't answer your question about open theism No. I am of the school of classic foreknowledge where God foreknows who will believe on Christ and then predestines them to do His will and live with Him in eternity.

And I have heard the CH Spurgeon said that "Calvinism is the Bible." If Calvinism is the Bible, then we are saved by "fate alone," not my "faith alone." Why? Because Calvin puts salvation all in God's hands. There is absolutely nothing I can do or say or pray or think that will save me .. Jesus ministry, death, and resurrection is but a bedside story or a carnival sideshow even a distraction from the truth which we are told we must believe but needn't if God has already chosen who will be saved.

Even belief .. do you see the difference between being "given" belief and actually believing for yourself? The one is "fate," the other is "free will." Calvinism by no means wants you to believe that you can actually believe for yourself. If you did, you would also have to obey the truth and repent, turning from them to God!

skypair

skypair · Nov 7, 2014

Choosethisday said:
What is it about what he said would make you connect it to an open theist view?

I believe it is the part about me not believing in predestination to salvation. In open theism, God would have to "learn" who would be saved and who not. He would not predestine it under the open theism paradigm.

But, you see, if God predestines it, then we are saved by "fate alone," not by "faith alone." It is like Greek mythology (which I believe was being debated about the time that Augustine came up with this "predestination" scheme). In Greek mythology, the gods predestined people like the main character Oedipus in the tragedy "Oedipus Rex." No matter what Oedipus or his father did, he could not change his fate. The prophecy regarding Oedipus was that he would kill his father and marry his mother. His father turned him over to a serf to kill but the serf didn't because the gods had control. So when he was a teen, he was walking along the road and got driven to the side by his father's coach whereupon he responded by killing his father. And so the story goes

Calvinists see salvation in much the same way. The "elect" will believe that they have crucified Christ to themselves as some point under the direct control of God and this will show them that they are saved. But everything will be as a "gift" from God belief, salvation, repentance, regeneration, etc. God gives them all the conditions that He, Himself, requires of us for salvation.

skypair

Metal Minister · Nov 7, 2014

skypair said:
OK, sorry I didn't answer your question about open theism  No. I am of the school of classic foreknowledge where God foreknows who will believe on Christ and then predestines them to do His will and live with Him in eternity.

And I have heard the CH Spurgeon said that "Calvinism is the Bible." If Calvinism is the Bible, then we are saved by "fate alone," not my "faith alone." Why? Because Calvin puts salvation all in God's hands. There is absolutely nothing I can do or say or pray or think that will save me .. Jesus ministry, death, and resurrection is but a bedside story or a carnival sideshow  even a distraction from the truth which we are told we must believe but needn't if God has already chosen who will be saved.

Even belief .. do you see the difference between being "given" belief and actually believing for yourself? The one is "fate," the other is "free will." Calvinism by no means wants you to believe that you can actually believe for yourself. If you did, you would also have to obey the truth and repent, turning from them to God!

skypair

Please provide your best single verse that says we have "free will" in light of the fact that I have already provided verses that show that all sinners are slaves to sin.

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