Questions about The Pledge of Allegiance and Oaths

[Sunny Side Up]

Hi, all! It has been many years since I've been on Christian Forums. As a background, I was not raised in a church. I was baptised Brethren, but have since moved from that area of the country and now attend a Mennonite church.

Recently, a friend and I got into a discussion about things such as oaths, saluting the flag, and saying the pledge. She made me question a part of my life that I had never before even considered. Now, obviously, I grew up with no problems doing these things. However, I have long ago been convicted that saying oaths is not something God has intended for me to do or allow my children to do. My husband is in agreement and I am very comfortable with this decision for our family.

However, I am torn on the pledge. While I can appreciate that some of the fundamental aspects of the Mennonite church are non-resistance and separation of church and state, I don't think I fully grasp the concept.

Since becoming a Christian, I had looked at service to our country (not including military service, though I don't condemn those who do) as obeying the authority God has placed over us, and the pledge and such as a representation of that. I have asked a few others for scriptural evidence one way or another, because I have no problem with doing what God asks either way, but I have yet to really understand the issue.

In some ways, I could see how saying The Pledge of Allegiance is wrong as it could be considered a promise to our country that we may be unable to fulfill if it comes to the point where it is at odds with God's will. Yet, I just don't feel the same conviction as I do about saying oaths presently.

I would appreciate any scripture recommendations that might help with clarity. Though I certainly wouldn't ask you to avoid commentary, it is really the scriptures I'm most after.



Thanks in advance!

 

[muddleglum]

The Pledge of Allegiance...

I would appreciate any scripture recommendations that might help with clarity. Though I certainly wouldn't ask you to avoid commentary, it is really the scriptures I'm most after.!

How about questions first? The main one is what you think the Pledge of Allegiance means; that is, to you. What do you think "pledge" means? What do you think "allegiance" means. I'll assume you know what the flag represents, but what does "republic" mean to you? Does it mean "one nation, indivisible"? If so, what further does that mean? If a state secedes the Federal Gov't has a right to quash that? If so, I have some more questions on that point.

Any problem with "liberty and justice for all"? ;-)

 

[Sunny Side Up]

Hmmm. I see what you are saying, but this is where the issue comes in for me. It's all semantics. I think that's where I am struggling, so I can't really tell you what some of these things mean to me! The meaning is a bit murky.

Whereas the word "oath" has a specific meaning in the OT, I see no such definition for "pledge". "Oath" being the whole seven sacrifices thing. Obviously, no one does seven sacrifices for an oath these days, but it makes me uncomfortable to use the same word as something that was forbidden by Christ in the NT. I can't even remember where I read it in my search for this, but I found somewhere that an oath was originally required in OT and then people began to swear oaths by things such as Heaven, Jerusalem, and Earth because they didn't want to associate God's holy name with something they might not fulfill. Hence James 5:12.

I'd have to look it up to see what it means exactly, but I don't think "Pledge" and "oath" are on the same level. That could just be my interpretation, though. I don't want to rely on my interpretation but on God's will, you know? I don't currently have problems with promises per se, but my issue is with the fact that I am setting myself up for sin as I do not know (and cannot know) if I will be able to fulfill that promise, which I *think* (I could be wrong here) is what Jesus was getting at when he tells us not to take oaths, too. My understanding is that it is not so much that making a promise is wrong as that you cannot know if you can keep the promise. Again, I could be wrong here. Correct me if so, please.

Also, I am not well versed in scripture, so I welcome anything additional on the subject of promises as opposed to oaths, etc.

You make a great point about the definition of "republic" and the "one nation, indivisible", as those things, in my opinion, are not congruous. Personally, I don't believe the government has a "right" to keep states from seceding... I have no idea where that falls on the political scale. I'm not a very political person. I hope that doesn't make any enemies for me! ha. I never truly thought about this issue before, but my gut says no. Don't hate me. haha

I am loyal to the country, but my loyalty to God comes first. Before, I'd always thought that order of loyalty was reflected in the "one nation, under God." That meaning, our nation must be under God (That's an entirely different discussion, I realize!) to receive the person's loyalty. That could not at all be what the original writer intended, but simply what my impression had been.

Thoughts?


-edited for clarity

 

[Sunny Side Up]

Also- FWIW, I don't usually make promises, either. I promised to love and honor my husband after I became a Christian, but I can't really think of any other oaths/vows/pledges/promises I've made since (including saying the Pledge). This question is more out of curiosity and a desire to understand God's will for my children's sake than anything, though I suspect they won't have an issue because their school, as far as I know, doesn't ever say the Pledge.

I know that many Mennonites say "I affirm" instead of "swear/vow/pledge/promise", but this is where I am confused. How is an affirmation different from a vow? a promise?

Thanks.

 

[muddleglum]

Hmmm. I see what you are saying, but this is where the issue comes in for me. It's all semantics. I think that's where I am struggling, so I can't really tell you what some of these things mean to me! The meaning is a bit murky.

As you grow in Christ, you'll find you disagree a lot with your former self. :-D When you find out what you mean then you can answer your own question better.

Whereas the word "oath" has a specific meaning in the OT, I see no such definition for "pledge". "Oath" being the whole seven sacrifices thing.

Do a word study on "vow" and "oath" in scripture using Strong's numbers. This is one thing that the KJV translators did right (with the possible exception of in James 5). Most modern translations mix the meaning of vow and oath because that is how the modern mind defines them. However, you want to drill down a bit.
Vow generally is a covenant with God. First the prayer, God, You do this; and then the vow, I'll do that.
Oath is generally calling down a curse on oneself if you aren't telling the truth. Jesus merely gave a positive command to be honest. More than that assumes that one's word isn't worth keeping otherwise and you can happily be dishonest.

I'd have to look it up to see what it means exactly, but I don't think "Pledge" and "oath" are on the same level. That could just be my interpretation, though. I don't want to rely on my interpretation but on God's will, you know? I don't currently have problems with promises per se, but my issue is with the fact that I am setting myself up for sin as I do not know (and cannot know) if I will be able to fulfill that promise, which I *think* (I could be wrong here) is what Jesus was getting at when he tells us not to take oaths, too. My understanding is that it is not so much that making a promise is wrong as that you cannot know if you can keep the promise. Again, I could be wrong here. Correct me if so, please.

Just ask yourself if you can honestly say, "I give allegiance." You will be in a crowd when this is recited, so you can say it that way. In court you may say "I affirm" rather than "I swear".

You make a great point about the definition of "republic" and the "one nation, indivisible", as those things, in my opinion, are not congruous. Personally, I don't believe the government has a "right" to keep states from seceding... I have no idea where that falls on the political scale. I'm not a very political person. I hope that doesn't make any enemies for me! ha. I never truly thought about this issue before, but my gut says no. Don't hate me. haha

We don't even vote, so I don't have a dog in the fight. You'll have to work it out for yourself. Now you have to think about war, just war, and unjust war.

I am loyal to the country, but my loyalty to God comes first. Before, I'd always thought that order of loyalty was reflected in the "one nation, under God." That meaning, our nation must be under God (That's an entirely different discussion, I realize!) to receive the person's loyalty. That could not at all be what the original writer intended, but simply what my impression had been.

Loyalty 1. I moved to El Salvador for a spell and had to ask myself some questions. You might pretend you moved and asked yourself similar questions. Would you be loyal to that country for the time you were in it? Or would you join with forces to overthrow it? That might be an appropriate question. How about if you were asked by the U.S. to spy? or to give aid to undermining the evil gov't. How about a good gov't? Or any gov't? Asking questions like that would help you to understand what you think in the first place.
Loyalty 2. You'll also have to define loyalty. I can see it going in several directions.
"Under God." (Mr. Know-it-all here.) That phrase wasn't originally there. It was added about 65 years ago. It can be taken away again.

Thoughts?

If you don't know what you mean by something, it is difficult to know what scripture would say. However, most things can come under the heading of love. As you also saw, honesty can come into play, too.

 

[muddleglum]

Also- FWIW, I don't usually make promises, either. I promised to love and honor my husband after I became a Christian, but I can't really think of any other oaths/vows/pledges/promises I've made since (including saying the Pledge). This question is more out of curiosity and a desire to understand God's will for my children's sake than anything, though I suspect they won't have an issue because their school, as far as I know, doesn't ever say the Pledge.

I know that many Mennonites say "I affirm" instead of "swear/vow/pledge/promise", but this is where I am confused. How is an affirmation different from a vow? a promise?

Thanks.

Affirmation is simply a "yes".
"Do you say 'yes' to the proposition that chocolate ice cream taste great?"
"Do you affirm the proposition that chocolate ice cream taste great?"
Sorta like granite on your kitchen counter instead of Formica.

I disagree with vows and promises, but only out loud when I see the evil seeping in. I'll let the Holy Spirit convict. In our group some will not allow some common ejaculations because they could be derived from oaths in the past. I've pointed out that most of the time they mean no more than "lo!"
So it goes. Love covers a multitude of quibbling. Get a jar of Romans 14 and use daily.

 

[Sunny Side Up]

I'm sorry I am just now responding. I really appreciate your help! I did read your response earlier and have been studying up on some ofwhat you have written.

Thanks again.

 

[WayneinMaine]

It seems in the very least to be a matter of simple idolatry, to make a solemn pledge to a piece of cloth. And to what state should followers of Jesus give their allegiance? the "republic for which it stands" or the Kingdom of God? And while it is a fine ideal to think of America as one nation, under God and indivisible, is that really true, especially in this era, where one's liberty to perform unnatural acts takes precedence over our liberty to practice our religion - is that justice for all?

 

[Caretaker]

Anabaptists have a variety of positions on the government. In the interest of brevity the below is a bit of an over simplification. And it must be recognized that within the Anabaptist community there is NOT widespread agreement on this subject. Discussion of the subject within Anabaptist circles almost always engenders some heated debate. So, keep that in mind when reading my perspectives as outlined below.

Martin Luther (not an Anabaptist) concocted a "Two Kingdom" theology that says that Christians live simultaneously in two "kingdoms": the kingdom of God, and God's kingdom on earth. According to Luther, as a member of the kingdom of God Christians are not allowed to participate in war as they are required by Christ to love and do good to their enemies. But as a member of God's kingdom on earth they are required to obey the government if/when it orders them to participate in war. To Luther participating and not participating in war is simply a matter of "changing hats", so to speak.

Early Mennonites tweaked this a bit. They said they personally are not allowed to participate in war, but they never-the-less recognize what they feel is the government's God-given authority to make war, and they generally will not criticize the government for making war. The Amish, which split from the Mennonites, are pretty much the same.

But the Brethren, at least originally, were a bit different. While the Brethren have historically held that "all war is sin" (and still officially adhere to that statement of doctrine), for about the past 75 to 100 years the once rigid proscription against participation in the military has largely gone by the wayside. In WWII over 90% of eligible Brethren males served in the military and of those only about 10% were in non-combatant roles (i.e., medics). Today some Brethren churches have a US flag at the front of the sanctuary, which at one time was strictly forbidden. And some celebrate military related holidays such as Memorial Day and July 4, which holidays historically were never celebrated.

Today most Brethren vote, pledge allegiance to the flag, swear to tell the truth (instead of affirm), and many participate in the military - all of which activities were once strictly prohibited on penalty of separation from the church.

 

[MrJim]

It seems in the very least to be a matter of simple idolatry, to make a solemn pledge to a piece of cloth. And to what state should followers of Jesus give their allegiance? the "republic for which it stands" or the Kingdom of God? And while it is a fine ideal to think of America as one nation, under God and indivisible, is that really true, especially in this era, where one's liberty to perform unnatural acts takes precedence over our liberty to practice our religion - is that justice for all?

^this....