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Questions About the Old Testament

StartToday

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Okay, so I came across these two quotes:

"And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the lord thy god hath given thee."
Deuteronomy 28:53

"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." Psalm 137:9

These are... well, kind of disturbing. So my questions are 1) do any of you take these literally? if not, why not? 2) why would there ever be a reason for people to kill and/or eat their children?? and 3) why use the old testament at all? I was always taught that everything in the old testament was archaic and that only the new testament really mattered.
 

rocklife

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Okay, so I came across these two quotes:

"And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the lord thy god hath given thee."
Deuteronomy 28:53

"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." Psalm 137:9

These are... well, kind of disturbing. So my questions are 1) do any of you take these literally? if not, why not? 2) why would there ever be a reason for people to kill and/or eat their children?? and 3) why use the old testament at all? I was always taught that everything in the old testament was archaic and that only the new testament really mattered.

the quote taken from Deuteronomy is listed as a curse for Israel's disodience so it seems. This is a warning that if they are disobedient after all these things they have seen with God, Moses and the parting of the sea and the plagues of Egypt, all this great deliverance brings a very big curse if they reject God after all that, which is what the eating of flesh is about. It is not a commandment, it is a warning of a curse if they disobey, then such a terrible thing as that will happen because their disobedience to God is so abominadable to Him, they will have abominadable punishments.
 
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heron

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Not just a little disturbing! Extremely disturbing.

God leaves people to their own devices if they choose that path.

The Deuteronomy "curses will come upon you and overtake you" doesn't necessarily mean that God will do those things. People in the region were already practicing some horrific things out of fear of other gods.

The Psalm was written in grief over Babylonian captivity. The writer had believed that God would keep the Israel nation together on location forever, but was very discouraged by being pushed into slavery.

There's a contemporary tendency for Christians to use every phrase in the Bible as God's Word of truth, for name-it-claim-it purposes. But there are many stories and expressions in the Bible --journals and historical annals where the person writing was not completely pure in motives.

The book of Job would be very confusing if someone were to pull a phrase out of it, because there's a long conversation between believers insulting Job's faith and efforts.

Abraham lied about his wife Sarah being his sister, to make things easier on himself. That doesn't provide us backing to lie when we go through customs. It was part of a story.
 
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rocklife

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and the verse in Psalms, the NIV bible study note says "War was as cruel then as now; women and children were not spared."

The verse Psalm 137:8 says more fully "O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us- he who siezes your infants and dashes them against the rocks." Babylon must have been under a judgment at that time as being very evil for anyone to want to take pleasure in even killing their babies, not only their babies, surely they mean war against all of them too.
 
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Davis

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Good point Heron. I believe the bible to be Gods Word. But there are plenty of instances of sin from Godly people in the bible. It doesn't mean that those actions committed by people like Abraham and David who were still sinners like us all, were exceptable to God. Thats why the OT is amazing when actually look at it. It shows that God can work through us even when were still lowly pieces of scum.
 
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heron

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2) why would there ever be a reason for people to kill and/or eat their children??
Never, never a reason. Not even survival.

There are other times in the Old Testament where God points out people's shame in giving in to this practice.

Lev 18:21
You shall not give any of your offspring to offer them to Molech, nor shall you profane the name of your God; I am the Lord.

Lev. 20:2-5
Eze 23:39 Eze 6:5
kids sacrificed to Molech:
2 Kings 23:10; Jeremiah 32:35; 2 Kings 16:3; 21:6; 2 Chronicles 28:3; Isaiah 57:5; Jeremiah 7:31; Ezekiel 16:20,21; 20:26,31; 23:37,39

3) why use the old testament at all? I was always taught that everything in the old testament was archaic and that only the new testament really mattered.
The people who lived out the New Testament stories revered the OT scriptures. They already had that foundation laid out, and were devoted to it. Jesus was devoted to it. Paul was highly trained in it.

There are many uncomfortable parts to read, but try to see each book for its purpose.

The Psalms were songs and poetry.

Leviticus and Numbers (Deut) contained the Laws of Moses, when the Israelites were rescued from slavery and started to reconstruct their nation.

Joshua, Judges, Kings, Samuel ... these are more historical records.

Proverbs was a collection of common-sense advice to pass down to their children.

The prophetic books come later, and tell of incidents where God intervened and communicated with the people in need of rescue.
 
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heron

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as being very evil for anyone to want to take pleasure in even killing their babies
I agree, I think that's what the context was. Translators sometimes have trouble wording things appropriately, when the original language was so different from ours. (No vowels, few filler words like "the.")

It doesn't mean that those actions committed by people like Abraham and David who were still sinners like us all, were exceptable to God. Thats why the OT is amazing when actually look at it. It shows that God can work through us even when were still lowly pieces of scum.
It seems that Jews have a better sense of this than we do. They can laugh at the patriarchs' mistakes a little better, seeing the humanity in them.

I found it really helped me to listen to the OT on tape, because it gave me more of a sense of story line. It keeps me from looking at each verse as literally as I would tend to.
 
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rocklife

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I agree, I think that's what the context was. Translators sometimes have trouble wording things appropriately, when the original language was so different from ours. (No vowels, few filler words like "the.")

It seems that Jews have a better sense of this than we do. They can laugh at the patriarchs' mistakes a little better, seeing the humanity in them.

I found it really helped me to listen to the OT on tape, because it gave me more of a sense of story line. It keeps me from looking at each verse as literally as I would tend to.
me too, I like bible on walkmen tapes, it helps so much.
 
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StartToday

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the quote taken from Deuteronomy is listed as a curse for Israel's disodience so it seems. This is a warning that if they are disobedient after all these things they have seen with God, Moses and the parting of the sea and the plagues of Egypt, all this great deliverance brings a very big curse if they reject God after all that, which is what the eating of flesh is about. It is not a commandment, it is a warning of a curse if they disobey, then such a terrible thing as that will happen because their disobedience to God is so abominadable to Him, they will have abominadable punishments.

So... any of those people who disobeyed him were forced (cursed) to eat their children?

...

Okay. Well. Okay then. I don't know what to say about all this.
 
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Davis

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So... any of those people who disobeyed him were forced (cursed) to eat their children?

...

Okay. Well. Okay then. I don't know what to say about all this.


Well by the looks of what 2nd Kings chapter six says, there was a famine. Which means there was no food. So the curse was the famine. The people had nothing to eat so they turned and ate there children so they could survive. God did not make the people eat there children. They did that themselves. Kind of like that movie ALIVE. Where the soccer players plane crashed. They made a choice to eat some of the meat of the people that didn't make it.

Do you understand now? It wasn't a commandment from God. It was a warning to what was going to come of the situation if they didn't listen to God. It was something that the people did in response to being taken over by there enemies and having nothing left. So famine took over.

Because the people didn't listen to Gods commands to keep them out of trouble so to speak, war came (curse) because they didn't listen (ever get into a situation because of something you did wrong because you didn't listen), and so they payed the price for there choices......not anything that God did. He was just telling them like a father would, about what would happen if they didn't listen.

Understand a little bit better?
 
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Catherineanne

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These are... well, kind of disturbing. So my questions are 1) do any of you take these literally? if not, why not? 2) why would there ever be a reason for people to kill and/or eat their children?? and 3) why use the old testament at all? I was always taught that everything in the old testament was archaic and that only the new testament really mattered.

There is a lot of evidence in the OT that the Israelites, in common with just about every other ancient culture, practiced infanticide. If you read through the OT you see lots of references to this, some of them half edited out, some of them left in. At some point a scribe decided that these references did not reflect well on the Israelites, and did a lot of editing, but not everything got edited away.

If you read Kings, you will find that some kings are condemned utterly for abominations. These abominations are spelt out as infanticide. In particular, if you piece them together, the people make their first born children pass through the fire (burn to death) as an offering to the god Molech. Sometimes this happens in a valley, sometimes on a mountain.

It is more than likely, therefore, that the story of Abraham taking Isaac to be sacrificed is one way of persuading the people of that time not to carry out this practice, and to demonstrate to the people that God does not delight in the murder of children. Seen in any other light, the story shows God as a sadist, imho. Seen in that light, it makes perfect sense.

Anyway, read for yourself. You do not need me to tell you what is there, you only need to open your eyes. One king is condemned for practicing abomination in making the children pass through the fire (infanticide), the next is godly, and bans it as a practice, and the next returns to the appalling practices. This happens over and over, and the prophets speak out against it over and over.

It is all there. Ultimately, of course, the Jews move from this to symbolic redemptive sacrifices instead, at first in several places but eventually centred on the Temple at Jerusalem, where a pair of doves or a lamb is offered in the place of the child. Slightly more civilised, and a practise still in place at the time of Our Lord. And of course, all of this underpins the thinking behind the sacrifice of Our Lord himself, as the First Born of his father.

It is a little disturbing to see the echoes of child sacrifice in our own faith, but they are there. And the proof is in the Bible itself.

As for your last question, both the OT and the NT matter. But neither is God. And what matters most of all to a Christian, imo, is not the Bible, but a living relationship with a Living God. One who does not delight in burnt offerings of any kind.
 
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Adstar

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Okay, so I came across these two quotes:

"And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the lord thy god hath given thee."
Deuteronomy 28:53

"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." Psalm 137:9

These are... well, kind of disturbing. So my questions are 1) do any of you take these literally? if not, why not? 2) why would there ever be a reason for people to kill and/or eat their children?? and 3) why use the old testament at all? I was always taught that everything in the old testament was archaic and that only the new testament really mattered.

Both of these verses are prophecies given in the OT.

So if i was to say to you that one day a person would punch you in the face and laugh at you does that necessarily imply that i agree or otherwise with the actions of that person? Does it make that person my friend.

"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." Psalm 137:9

Yes the person who does this will take great delight in killing these little ones, Does that mean that the one doing this deed will be a follower of God? Not at all. God often gave prophecies where the ones carrying out the action where the enemies of God.

If i was a prophet living in the 1920's and i went to the Jews in Europe and said.

"happy shall he be, that taketh and gas your little ones in a gas chamber"

Would that imply that i love the nazi's Not at all.

I am surprised you even gave the first quote about the parents eating their kids. In isolation it gives the impression that God approves cannibalism.

But if you had read it in context then you would have realised that it was saying that they would be trapped in a siege and they would become so starved that they would end up eating their children. Once again it was a prophecy of a future event and its outcome, Not a thumbs up to cannibalism.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
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heron

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God did not make the people eat their children.
Pasted for emphasis.
This happens over and over, and the prophets speak out against it over and over.
The people are doing it, and God is condemning them for it.
Hmm, I think the verses need to be looked at in context, not jsut one verse.
Egads, I agree!

Both of these verses are prophecies given in the OT.
Do you really see the Psalm as a prophecy? I don't see that. It's usually considered an imprecatory psalm.
I am surprised you even gave the first quote about the parents eating their kids.
It was a question -- a very important one to resolve well. Sometimes when people read something that disturbing, they don't feel it worth researching further!!
It is more than likely, therefore, that the story of Abraham taking Isaac to be sacrificed is one way of persuading the people of that time not to carry out this practice
Also, if you read the passage with the Hebrew translation, God never asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. He asked Abraham to bring his son along.

Abraham made the assumption. So I think you're right, it was an example that God has better plans for us! Even applying the Jesus parallel, life is the end-- not death. (Thanks for all your information-- great post!)

[FONT=Times New Roman, verdana, arial, georgia][SIZE=-1]1. Was Abraham asked to offer Isaac?
[/SIZE][/FONT]
 
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Merlin

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If you are interested in becoming a very strick Bible follower, then it's an issue.
If you are interested in Christianity, then Acts chapter 15 is for you.


5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said,
"The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question.
7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some
time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message
of the gospel and believe.
8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them,
just as he did to us.
9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.
10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that
neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?
11 No!
We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

The consensus was:
Acts 15:28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond
the following requirements:
Acts 15:29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of
strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.
 
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Key

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God tells us, that if we turn against him, this is what will become of us, because our very nature is sinful, and when we remove God from our lives as our moral rudder, our most overpowring ID will surface, and rule our lives, where we will become depraved to the point that we would be willing to eat our own children simply because they taste good.

That children that are dashed against the rocks or killed, will be the lucky ones, like the children today that woman will rip out of their own womb because they feel it is better they die then to live in our world.

This is what God showed of us, not that he will curse us, but that we ourselves are already cursed in this manner because of our sin. That we will hold our children as things, meat, and toys to be killed if it inconveniences us. That when we remove God, we will decay into this state.

Just some food to ponder... (Pun intended)

God Bless

Key
 
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