Questions about the Baha'i

Chesterton said:

So if Baha’u’llah is speaking the truth here, he logically should have become a Christian, because Jesus said Jesus was God, and had to be speaking truth. No?

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I don't think so. Baha'u'llah had a whole different idea of the divine, religion and Jesus in general then your average orthodox/mainline Christian. I doubt he would have seen any value to label himself Christian in regards to his spiritual journey.

Chesterton said:

So do Bahai's accept Jesus' words when he says that he himself is the actual Lord: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"
...
"And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes."

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For some reason I always saw it was mainly Christians who are the ones surprised that Jesus is telling them to depart from him. Seems to make the most sense that the people most sure of following Christ are the ones that actually aren't.

I of course don't mean all Christians, just some. Just an opinion and observation!

Chesterton said:

Hmm, perhaps you see where I'm going. By Sermon on the Mount I meant Sermon on the Mount, all of it.

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Let's say I was a bit suspicious, but I don't have any problem whatsoever with the verse you cited.
But I was also thinking of the fact that the Beatitudes is part of the Sermon of the Mount in some gospels but is presented as being given off of a boat somewhere else. It is, of course possible that Jesus gave the same sermon in more than one place (I don't know a preacher who doesn't!) But I also suspect that the things Jesus said were better remembered than the circumstances in which he said them.

Most of the Baha'i Writings are in Baha'u'llah's own pen, so we don't have to guess about what he really said. But if at some point all of our Writings were destroyed, I suspect we would be able to reconstruct the most important ones, the Tablet of Ahmad, the Hidden Words, the prayers, etc. And we don't live in a culture which likes to memorize.
I'm a little bit more suspicious of John's Gospel since the words put into Jesus' mouth seem to fit John's agenda. On the other hand, I find it the most beautiful Gospel.
Having said all that, while Baha'is don't believe, as so many Muslims do that the Gospels have been corrupted. On the other hand, I don't believe in scriptural inerrancy as it applies to the Bible either. I'm too much of an academic for that.

Chesterton said:

So do Bahai's accept Jesus' words when he says that he himself is the actual Lord:

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I don't think it is inappropriate for a Manifestation to refer to himself as Lord (Rabb) if that's what you mean.

Chesterton said:

So if Baha’u’llah is speaking the truth here, he logically should have become a Christian, because Jesus said Jesus was God, and had to be speaking truth. No?

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Jesus doesn't actually say he is God directly anymore than Baha'u'llah does and given the fact that we believe both are divine in the same way, and that in some sense Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ, it wouldn't make sense for Baha'u'llah to become a Christian, would it? In fact the very reason that Shoghi Effendi forbids Baha'is from taking communion is that Paul said this should be done until Christ returns. Taking communion therefore for a Baha'i would be tantamount to denying Christ's return in Baha'u'llah.

light upon light said:

Yes, Manifestation of God, not God incarnate.

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Manifestation according thesaurus means exhibition, proof etc. By that definition the whole world is a manifestation of God.

And (I would suggest) that Baha'u'llah is the "greatest" Manifestation because this is the time of the coming of age of the human race and its transformation from its spiritual childhood to its adulthood.

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Hmm so, it's the timing even though he has no role to play in the coming of age.That is an interesting perspective.

In another sense, all the Manifestations are equal, as Baha'u'llah wrote:

"These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attributes, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers.” "

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Supreme and yet all are equal.Not something that makes sense. One cannot declare himself to be supreme of all prophets and yet go on to say all are equal.

It is almost being apologizing for supreme declaration.

Either you are a prophet or you are not.If you are a prophet you cannot declare your self as God.

Manifestations are effects and hence cannot be equated with source.

Seems he cannot make up his mind between being a prophet or being God.

gordRedeemed said:

I don't think so. Baha'u'llah had a whole different idea of the divine, religion and Jesus in general then your average orthodox/mainline Christian. I doubt he would have seen any value to label himself Christian in regards to his spiritual journey.

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Seems somebody is one the way to embracing a new religion .

Rationalt said:

Seems somebody is one the way to embracing a new religion .

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me? no sir.

Rationalt said:

Manifestation according thesaurus means exhibition, proof etc. By that definition the whole world is a manifestation of God.

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Yes, Baha'u'llah acknowledge is that:

"Having created the world and all that liveth and moveth therein, He, through the direct operation of His unconstrained and sovereign Will, chose to confer upon man the unique distinction and capacity to know Him and to love Him -- a capacity that must needs be regarded as the generating impulse and the primary purpose underlying the whole of creation.... Upon the inmost reality of each and every created thing He hath shed the light of one of His names, and made it a recipient of the glory of one of His attributes. Upon the reality of man, however, He hath focused the radiance of all of His names and attributes, and made it a mirror of His own Self. Alone of all created things man hath been singled out for so great a favor, so enduring a bounty.

These energies with which the Day Star of Divine bounty and Source of heavenly guidance hath endowed the reality of man lie, however, latent within him, even as the flame is hidden within the candle and the rays of light are potentially present in the lamp. The radiance of these energies may be obscured by worldly desires even as the light of the sun can be concealed beneath the dust and dross which cover the mirror. Neither the candle nor the lamp can be lighted through their own unaided efforts, nor can it ever be possible for the mirror to free itself from its dross. It is clear and evident that until a fire is kindled the lamp will never be ignited, and unless the dross is blotted out from the face of the mirror it can never represent the image of the sun nor reflect its light and glory.

And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: "Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is." And in like manner, the words: "Arise, O Muhammad, for lo, the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee." He similarly saith: "There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and Them, except that They are Thy Servants." The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: "I am but a man like you." "Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?" These Essences of Detachment, these resplendent Realities are the channels of God's all-pervasive grace. Led by the light of unfailing guidance, and invested with supreme sovereignty, They are commissioned to use the inspiration of Their words, the effusions of Their infallible grace and the sanctifying breeze of Their Revelation for the cleansing of every longing heart and receptive spirit from the dross and dust of earthly cares and limitations. Then, and only then, will the Trust of God, latent in the reality of man, emerge, as resplendent as the rising Orb of Divine Revelation, from behind the veil of concealment, and implant the ensign of its revealed glory upon the summits of men's hearts.

From the foregoing passages and allusions it hath been made indubitably clear that in the kingdoms of earth and heaven there must needs be manifested a Being, an Essence Who shall act as a Manifestation and Vehicle for the transmission of the grace of the Divinity Itself, the Sovereign Lord of all. Through the Teachings of this Day Star of Truth every man will advance and develop until he attaineth the station at which he can manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true self hath been endowed. It is for this very purpose that in every age and dispensation the Prophets of God and His chosen Ones have appeared amongst men, and have evinced such power as is born of God and such might as only the Eternal can reveal.

Can one of sane mind ever seriously imagine that, in view of certain words the meaning of which he cannot comprehend, the portal of God's infinite guidance can ever be closed in the face of men? Can he ever conceive for these Divine Luminaries, these resplendent Lights either a beginning or an end? What outpouring flood can compare with the stream of His all-embracing grace, and what blessing can excel the evidences of so great and pervasive a mercy? There can be no doubt whatever that if for one moment the tide of His mercy and grace were to be withheld from the world, it would completely perish. For this reason, from the beginning that hath no beginning the portals of Divine mercy have been flung open to the face of all created things, and the clouds of Truth will continue to the end that hath no end to rain on the soil of human capacity, reality and personality their favors and bounties. Such hath been God's method continued from everlasting to everlasting."

Hmm so, it's the timing even though he has no role to play in the coming of age.That is an interesting perspective.

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Not what is meant. Baha'u'llah is "supreme" by virtue of the Message he brings, not because he is essentially greater than any other Manifestation.

Supreme and yet all are equal.Not something that makes sense. One cannot declare himself to be supreme of all prophets and yet go on to say all are equal.

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You can if you explain what you mean by that, which Baha'u'llah clearly did. But if what you are looking for is contradiction, that is all you will ever see.
It is almost being apologizing for supreme declaration.

Either you are a prophet or you are not.If you are a prophet you cannot declare your self as "I am God".

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And who made you God to make these pronouncements? If I see the sun in the mirror and I point to it saying, "there's the sun" I am not lying even though I fully realize the sun is still 93 million miles away.

smaneck said:

I don't think it is inappropriate for a Manifestation to refer to himself as Lord (Rabb) if that's what you mean.

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Would you say it is similar to when an Old Testament prophet says "Thus says the Lord" and then delivers a message in the first person?

Celticflower said:

Would you say it is similar to when an Old Testament prophet says "Thus says the Lord" and then delivers a message in the first person?

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I would say that, exactly.

Chesterton said:

So if Baha’u’llah is speaking the truth here, he logically should have become a Christian, because Jesus said Jesus was God, and had to be speaking truth. No?

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You'll have to give me the citation for that.

Of course, Baha'u'llah says that *IF* Christ were to say "I am God" - it is the truth. Because Christ is the Word of God to all humanity.

You seem to think that Baha'is do not uphold the station of Christ. That is not true. We hold Him to be "as close to God as humanity can ever know", that is, the absolute representation of God to humanity.

Also, you may not be aware that Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ. How does that work? In the same way that John the Baptist was the return of Elijah.

Celticflower said:

Would you say it is similar to when an Old Testament prophet says "Thus says the Lord" and then delivers a message in the first person?

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I think it involves more than that. Manifestation don't simply relay a message from God, but rather they demonstrate in their own Person everything we can understand about God humanly speaking.

smaneck said:

Let's say I was a bit suspicious, but I don't have any problem whatsoever with the verse you cited.
But I was also thinking of the fact that the Beatitudes is part of the Sermon of the Mount in some gospels but is presented as being given off of a boat somewhere else. It is, of course possible that Jesus gave the same sermon in more than one place (I don't know a preacher who doesn't!) But I also suspect that the things Jesus said were better remembered than the circumstances in which he said them.

Most of the Baha'i Writings are in Baha'u'llah's own pen, so we don't have to guess about what he really said. But if at some point all of our Writings were destroyed, I suspect we would be able to reconstruct the most important ones, the Tablet of Ahmad, the Hidden Words, the prayers, etc. And we don't live in a culture which likes to memorize.
I'm a little bit more suspicious of John's Gospel since the words put into Jesus' mouth seem to fit John's agenda. On the other hand, I find it the most beautiful Gospel.
Having said all that, while Baha'is don't believe, as so many Muslims do that the Gospels have been corrupted. On the other hand, I don't believe in scriptural inerrancy as it applies to the Bible either. I'm too much of an academic for that.

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I can’t tell if that’s a yes or a no.

smaneck said:

I don't think it is inappropriate for a Manifestation to refer to himself as Lord (Rabb) if that's what you mean.

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No, I mean is it appropriate, for example, for a Manifestation to say he himself would be the judge of our souls after death?

smaneck said:

Jesus doesn't actually say he is God directly anymore than Baha'u'llah does and given the fact that we believe both are divine in the same way, and that in some sense Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ, it wouldn't make sense for Baha'u'llah to become a Christian, would it? In fact the very reason that Shoghi Effendi forbids Baha'is from taking communion is that Paul said this should be done until Christ returns. Taking communion therefore for a Baha'i would be tantamount to denying Christ's return in Baha'u'llah.

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Christ implicitly and explicitly says who he is throughout the gospels. The return of Christ was addressed by Christ as recorded in the gospels, and by St. John’s vision. I’m sure you know what is said about it. It did not occur in the 19th century. You have to engage in Muslim-like corruption ideas to get around that, as well as Jesus' miracles, and his divinity.

light upon light said:

You'll have to give me the citation for that.

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There are too many, mostly found in the four gospels.

Of course, Baha'u'llah says that *IF* Christ were to say "I am God" - it is the truth. Because Christ is the Word of God to all humanity.

You seem to think that Baha'is do not uphold the station of Christ. That is not true. We hold Him to be "as close to God as humanity can ever know", that is, the absolute representation of God to humanity.

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I think you do not uphold the correct station of Christ.

Also, you may not be aware that Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ. How does that work? In the same way that John the Baptist was the return of Elijah.

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See above response to smanek. John was a "type" or figure of Elijah, not literally Elijah.

Chesterton said:

No, I mean is it appropriate, for example, for a Manifestation to say he himself would be the judge of our souls after death?

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Christ implicitly and explicitly says who he is throughout the gospels.

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I'm sure you will cite these sayings, right?

The return of Christ was addressed by Christ as recorded in the gospels, and by St. John’s vision. I’m sure you know what is said about it.

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Let's look at it this way. The people of Israel were expecting the Messiah (the Christ). They thought He would be a military leader and a king who would lead them to victory over the Romans. They expected him to be named "Emmanuel" and to come from an unknown place.

When a humble Carpenter named Yeshua came to them from Nazareth who was, to outward appearances, devoid of power, who did not rule, did not have soldiers and did not overthrow the Romans militarily, some Jewish leaders deemed him a false claimant, and had him crucified by the Roman authorities.

God does not appear to us according to our desires and expectations.

It did not occur in the 19th century.

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Was John the Baptist the return of Elijah?

Chesterton said:

I can’t tell if that’s a yes or a no.

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Sorry, a yes or no to what?

No, I mean is it appropriate, for example, for a Manifestation to say he himself would be the judge of our souls after death?

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I don't think it is inappropriate, but that's not what I think most references to Judgement Day are all about. Do you know how in John's Gospel Jesus trial the Judgement is seen as being present? For a Baha'i the Judgement Day refers to any day where the Manifestation appears. Whether we accept or reject him, is our Judgement.

Christ implicitly and explicitly says who he is throughout the gospels.

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I agree, I just don't think that necessarily coincides with what most Christians came to believe about him afterwards.

The return of Christ was addressed by Christ as recorded in the gospels, and by St. John’s vision. I’m sure you know what is said about it.

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Yep. What we see there is pretty much the same thing we see in prophecies and beliefs regarding the Return of Elijah. The Jews believed Elijah would return because they believed he had never died. Yet, Jesus asserts that John the Baptist was Elijah notwithstanding the fact that John the Baptist comes into this world the usual way, through a woman.

Bottom line: It is as Reinhold Niebuhr put it: "The Messiah who comes is never the one expected"

You have to engage in Muslim-like corruption ideas to get around that, as well as Jesus' miracles, and his divinity.

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If this is corruption then Christians are masters of it! There is nothing I have done in interpreting the Gospels that the New Testament doesn't do in connection with the Tanakh. Right, Loammi and Danny?

light upon light said:

I'm sure you will cite these sayings, right?



Let's look at it this way. The Jews were expecting the Messiah (the Christ). They thought He would be a military leader and a king who would lead them to victory over the Romans. They expected him to be named "Emmanuel" and to come from an unknown place.

When a humble Carpenter named Yeshua came to them from Nazareth who was, to outward appearances, devoid of power, who did not rule, did not have soldiers and did not overthrow the Romans militarily, they deemed him a false claimant, and had him crucified by the authorities.

God does not appear to us according to our desires and expectations.



Was John the Baptist the return of Elijah?

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I believe that John the Baptist was the return of Elijah.

Chesterton said:

I think you do not uphold the correct station of Christ.

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We don't uphold the Nicean Creed if that's what you mean. But then it isn't in the Bible.

See above response to smanek. John was a "type" or figure of Elijah, not literally Elijah.

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And Baha'u'llah is not literally Jesus. But just as John fulfills the prophecies related to Elijah's return, so Baha'u'llah fulfills prophecies related to Christ's return.

Chesterton said:

There are too many, mostly found in the four gospels.

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Please cite them.

I think you do not uphold the correct station of Christ.

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Are the Son and the Father the same, or different?

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." - Mark 13:32

I don't think you and I actually disagree at all about the divinity of Christ. I think we just have different ideas of what it means to "be God".

See above response to smanek. John was a "type" or figure of Elijah, not literally Elijah.

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The Jews of that time were expecting a literal return of Elijah, perhaps even in a fiery Chariot come down from the sky.

Now many Christians are waiting on a literal return of Jesus of Nazareth, flying down from the sky and shooting fire out of His eyes. Even though they were told to "watch" for His return and that He would come "like a thief in the night".

The book of Revelations must be understood in terms of symbolism and metaphor, just as the Old Testament promises of the Messiah conquering all the enemies of Israel needed to be understood symbolically in order to recognize Jesus as the promised Redeemer.

Jesus explains that here:

"For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist...

And if ye will receive it, this is Elijah, who was prophecied. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." - Matthew 11:11-15

Those with eyes to see and ears to hear will understand that prophecies cannot all be taken literally.

That when we are told that Christ will return "in the clouds", with fire coming from His eyes, and feet of brass, those have symbolic meanings, not to be taken literally.

Clouds represent that which blocks and obscures the Sun of truth so we are veiled from it. Fire from the eyes means a powerful vision of truth that burns away superstitions and false beliefs. Feet of brass means feet that are impervious to turning away from the path of hardship which God will destine for Him.