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Questions about the Baha'i

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steve_bakr

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I think what Ibn Arabi said is that everyone worships the "God of their own belief," so that worshipping God is their intention, even if misled.

When I referred to the elect, I was referring to the Saints who are aware of the Absolute, or you might say, Al-Haqq.

I think the Quran is sometimes ambiguous about the People of the Book, which makes me wonder if different groups are being referred to. Some Christians were sympathetic and others may have been unsympathetic.

I believe it says at one point that the Christians who believe in the angels, the Day of Resurrection, pray regularly, give to Charity, and practice good deeds will be rewarded and will have nothing to fear.

It is true that the Quran can be polemical. But once again, I explained that, those who are aware of the Absolute, know that every religion is relative in the face of It, and many on the surface are exclusive.

Some Christians feel that Muslims are lost, and some Muslims feel that Christians are lost. But that argument just goes around in circles. Reza Shah-Kazemi points out that the highest Spirituality sees through the exclusive relativity and gets to the inner meaning of every religion.

By the way, Paradise and Hell can even be seen as relative, because they are created; and aren't they both just a projection of the nafs' fear of punishment and desire for pleasure?

The Saints I'm speaking of renounce both worlds and seek only Allah and His Presence.
 
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Niblo

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Hello Sen McGlinn:

I said there is no place where the Exalted cannot be. You replied that if this were the case there could be no evil, since evil is the absence of good.

Response:

Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) is absolute Goodness. It is part of His very nature, and as such is uncreated. It can never be absent.

It is the absence of created goodness - both natural and moral - that gives rise to evil. And this is the goodness you are referring to. Evil events happen - of course - but they do not, and cannot, limit the Exalted’s Omnipresence; nor oblige Him to impose limitations on Himself.

You say: ‘theologians in all the Abrahamic religions have suggested that while (the Exalted) could be fully present everywhere, in every thing, (He) has voluntarily chosen to "leave a space."’ (in order that evil might exist).

Response:

The omnipresence of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) is a matter of regular and general teaching, and is expressed in the Book of Psalms thus: ‘Where shall I go to escape your spirit? Where shall I flee from your presence? If I scale the heavens you are there, if I lie flat in Sheol, there you are. If I speed away on the wings of the dawn, if I dwell beyond the ocean, even there your hand will be guiding me, your right hand holding me fast.’ (139: 7-10); and again in the Book of Jeremiah: ‘“Can anyone hide somewhere secret without my seeing him?” Yahweh demands. “Do I not fill heaven and earth?” Yahweh demands.’ (23:24); and in the Qur’an: ‘Do you not see (Prophet) that Allāh knows everything in the heavens and earth? There is no secret conversation between three people where He is not the fourth, or between five where He is not the sixth, or between less or more than that without Him being with them, wherever they may be. On the Day of Resurrection, He will show them what they have done: Allāh truly has full knowledge of everything.’ (Al-Mujadala: 7).

It is often said that Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) can do anything He chooses; but this is not correct. What is correct is that He can do only what is in His nature to do. It is not in His nature to die, for example, and so He cannot bring about His own death.

Omnipresence is a divine attribute and, like all such attributes, is identical with the Beloved’s essence; with His very nature. He cannot withdraw Himself from any part of His creation; or ‘leave a space’ of any kind; and this is great news for us, because: ‘All creatures need to be preserved by God. For the being of every creature depends on God, so that not for a moment could it subsist, but would fall into nothingness were it not kept in being by the operation of the Divine power.’ (Summa Theological - St Thomas Aquinas: Part 1; Page 680); ‘And how could a thing subsist, had you not willed it? Or how be preserved, if not called forth by you?’ (Wisdom 11:25); ‘In the name of Allāh, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy! Praise belongs to Allāh, Cherisher and Sustainer of the Worlds’ (Al-Fatiha: 1).

Have a great day.
 
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Niblo

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Hello Susan,

Thank you for your reply.

My reference to ‘normal human beings’ and ‘manifestations of God’ was sourced from: ‘The Baha’i Faith’, by a David L Johnson (a Christian). He also wrote:

‘Baha'is attempt to circumvent the fact that their manifestations (except of Jesus) were neither in harmony, infallible, nor sinless by simply denying the validity of any scripture or historical record that disagrees with their preconceived notions. They do not cite other extant ancient writings that
support their position. They merely declare that any contradiction to the teaching of Baha'u'llah must be in error, and they attribute any clear statement in the Bible which is antithetical to Baha'i doctrine as either a corruption of the original text, an exaggeration, or a legendary account.’

Can this be true? Can it really be that the Baha’i accept what they like, and reject what they please!

You write: ‘We see the Manifestations as perfect mirrors reflecting the Names and Attributes of God. If we think of God as the sun, yes we all reflect His light in some manner or there would be no colours, but only a mirror can reflect what the sun really looks like. Of course, analogies can only take us so far.’

Bahá’u’lláh goes a lot further than that: ‘It hath, therefore, become manifest and evident that within the tabernacles of these Prophets and chosen Ones of God the light of His infinite names and exalted attributes hath been reflected, even though the light of some of these attributes may or may not be outwardly revealed from these luminous Temples to the eyes of men. That a certain attribute of God hath not been outwardly manifested by these Essences of Detachment doth in no wise imply that they who are the Day Springs of God’s attributes and the Treasuries of His holy names did not actually possess it. Therefore, these illuminated Souls, these beauteous Countenances have, each and every one of them, been endowed with all the attributes of God, such as sovereignty, dominion, and the like, even though to outward seeming they be shorn of all earthly majesty.... ‘ (Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh: Number 19).

Response:

Here are the acknowledged attributes of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla): Absolute perfection, and to an infinite degree; absolute simplicity (being spirit, having no parts); absolute (i.e. uncreated) goodness; absolute immutability; eternal existence; omnipresence; perfection of divine knowledge; perfection of divine willing; omnipotence; supreme sovereignty and dominion over all things; infinite justice, and infinite mercy.

According to Bahá’u’lláh the ‘manifestations’ are ‘endowed with all’ of these. Does that sound like mere ‘reflection’ to you? What would you say if I were to insist (over and over) that my humble mirror, now reflecting the sun shining through my window as I write, is endowed with all the attributes of the sun?

What we see in the words of Bahá’u’lláh is not a set of ‘mirrors’ but a collection of mini-me’s.

Have a nice day!
 
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light upon light

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This refers to 1000 years after Baha'u'llah.
 
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light upon light

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Hi Paul.

Regarding a place where God is not, of course this is not a reality.

And yet we as human beings can indeed be far from God, by turning our back on Him.

This from the Hidden Words describes the paradox:

"O MOVING FORM OF DUST!

I desire communion with thee, but thou wouldst put no trust in Me. The sword of thy rebellion hath felled the tree of thy hope. At all times I am near unto thee, but thou art ever far from Me. Imperishable glory I have chosen for thee, yet boundless shame thou hast chosen for thyself. While there is yet time, return, and lose not thy chance."

I would describe it thus: we can choose to be close to God, or fail to do so. That "space" which Sen was referring to was the freedom to decide love for God, or love for our self-centeredness. Of course God is equally omnipresent, but the perception of God's presence differs markedly for the creatures depending on their own choices.

EDIT:

This passage also relates on this theme:

"Meditate on what the poet hath written: “Wonder not, if my Best-Beloved be closer to me than mine own self; wonder at this, that I, despite such nearness, should still be so far from Him.”… Considering what God hath revealed, that “We are closer to man than his life-vein,” the poet hath, in allusion to this verse, stated that, though the revelation of my Best-Beloved hath so permeated my being that He is closer to me than my life-vein, yet, notwithstanding my certitude of its reality and my recognition of my station, I am still so far removed from Him. By this he meaneth that his heart, which is the seat of the All-Merciful and the throne wherein abideth the splendor of His revelation, is forgetful of its Creator, hath strayed from His path, hath shut out itself from His glory, and is stained with the defilement of earthly desires."
 
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Niblo

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Hello Light,

Agreed! Many thanks, and very best regards.

Paul
 
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Arthra

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Thanks Mumin for an important question! Defining the concept of a "Manifestation of God" is essential. I'll offer here some definitions as we Baha'is understand it.

"A Divine Manifestation is as a mirror reflecting the light of the Sun. The light is the same and yet the mirror is not the Sun. All the Manifestations of God bring the same Light; they only differ in degree, not in reality. The Truth is one. The light is the same though the lamps may be different; we must look at the Light not at the Lamp. If we accept the Light in one, we must accept the Light in all; all agree, because all are the same. The teaching is ever the same, it is only the outward forms that change.

"The Manifestations of God are as the heavenly bodies. All have their appointed place and time of ascension, but the Light they give is the same. if one wishes to look for the sun rising, one does not look always at the same point because that point changes with the seasons. When one sees the sun rise further in the north one recognizes it, though it has risen at a different point."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 66

"Each of the Divine Manifestations has likewise a cycle, and during the cycle his laws and commandments prevail and are performed. When his cycle is completed by the appearance of a new Manifestation, a new cycle begins. In this way cycles begin, end, and are renewed, until a universal cycle is completed in the world, when important events and great occurrences will take place which entirely efface every trace and every record of the past; then a new universal cycle begins in the world, for this universe has no beginning. We have before stated proofs and evidences concerning this subject; there is no need of repetition."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 53

There's also a general explanation here:

Manifestations of God | What Bahá?ís Believe

From my study the Manifestation has innate knowldge ... He does not need "education" in the sense that normal humans need it.. I think some of the stories re. Jesus speaking as a babe were an attempt to approach this concept. The Manifestations also have tremendous impact on the advancement of civilization...
 
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Arthra

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Niblo wrote above:

My reference to ‘normal human beings’ and ‘manifestations of God’ was sourced from: ‘The Baha’i Faith’, by a David L Johnson (a Christian). He also wrote:

‘Baha'is attempt to circumvent the fact that their manifestations (except of Jesus) were neither in harmony, infallible, nor sinless by simply denying the validity of any scripture or historical record that disagrees with their preconceived notions. They do not cite other extant ancient writings that
support their position. They merely declare that any contradiction to the teaching of Baha'u'llah must be in error, and they attribute any clear statement in the Bible which is antithetical to Baha'i doctrine as either a corruption of the original text, an exaggeration, or a legendary account.’

Can this be true? Can it really be that the Baha’i accept what they like, and reject what they please!

My comment:

I haven't noticed that "Baha'is attempt to circumvent the fact that their manifestations (except of Jesus) were neither in harmony, infallible, nor sinless by simply denying the validity of any scripture or historical record that disagrees with their preconceived notions."

I think the writer should profide some example of what they mean.

Regarding the statement:

"they attribute any clear statement in the Bible which is antithetical to Baha'i doctrine as either a corruption of the original text, an exaggeration, or a legendary account."

The Bible we regard as an inspired Holy Book...not necessarily accurate but containing Divine Inspiration. We do not believe in "corruption of the text".. I think if you review earlier posts on this thread you'll note that. There have been in our view interpretations by the divines that have mislead the people. We generally do not accept a word by word literal meaning of the Bible.

Niblo wrote:

"Can it really be that the Baha’i accept what they like, and reject what they please!"

I see Baha'is generally as having principles and perspectives that are based on our Writings. We also acknowledge the interpretations of these Writings by certain figures in our history such as Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. The Universal House of Justice can also deal with issues not included in the Writings where they affect the Baha'i community. So I don't find that Baha'is simply "...accept what they like, and reject what they please!"
 
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smaneck

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Niblo said:
My reference to ‘normal human beings’ and ‘manifestations of God’ was sourced from: ‘The Baha’i Faith’, by a David L Johnson (a Christian). He also wrote
Click to expand...

That explains it. I thought it sounded odd. Getting that sort of information from a Christian would be a little like asking a Muslim about the meaning of the Trinity. Perhaps not your best source.


As you probably know, the concept of Prophets possessing infallibility ('ismat) is found in Islam as well. Yes, I realize that the Hebrew people did not see their Prophets that way. This is how Abdu'l-Baha explains the references to sin in connection with the Prophets of the Tanakh. Make of it, what you will:

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 167-170

Can this be true? Can it really be that the Baha’i accept what they like, and reject what they please!
Click to expand...

I hope our approach is a little more nuanced than that. But if we do, how would that be any different from the way in which Muslims treat Judaism or Christianity? What we do believe is that revelation is something that has unfolded over time in accordance with people's capacity to understand.

You write: ‘We see the Manifestations as perfect mirrors reflecting the Names and Attributes of God. If we think of God as the sun, yes we all reflect His light in some manner or there would be no colours, but only a mirror can reflect what the sun really looks like. Of course, analogies can only take us so far.’


I'd say I'd like to meet you and see if I can see the same thing.
Obviously if that were all Baha'u'llah was saying, I would not likely accept it. Ultimately it is the Message which proves the Messenger.

But as for what it means to be a Manifestation, I would say they are all we can understand about God humanly speaking, but I stop short of incarnation.
 
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smaneck

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The term "manifestation" mazhar ilahi, zuhur was previously used in Shi'ite theology. Baha'is use it somewhat differently. I urge you to read the following article for a fuller understanding:

The Concept of Manifestation in the Bahá'í Writings
 
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Arthra

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Mumin said:
That's not my question. "Manifestation" refers to "prophets". My question is why don't you say "prophets" instead of "manifestation"? And what is "sun" and "light"?
Click to expand...

Thanks for the question!

"Sun" and "light" as used in this context refer to spiritual truth...Example:

I swear by the Sun of Truth, the light of agreement shall brighten and illumine the horizons.

(Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveller's Narrative, p. 42)

"O friends of God, verily the Pen of Sincerity enjoineth on you the greatest faithfulness. By the Life of God, its light is more evident than the light of the sun! In its light and its brightness and its radiance every light is eclipsed.

(Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveller's Narrative, p. 46)

I think we use the term "Manifestation" as it explains better the relation between God and His Prophets and Messengers... We still use terms like prophets and messengers..

This Sun of Reality, this center of effulgences is the prophet or Manifestation of God.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 11)

It is evident that the divine prophets have appeared in the world to establish love and agreement among mankind. They have been the shepherds and not the wolves. The shepherd comes forth to gather and lead his flock and not to disperse them by creating strife. Every divine shepherd has assembled a flock which had formerly been scattered.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 21)

To some the term "prophet" could be understood as a "minor prophet" rather than a Manifestation..

An example of the use of "Messenger":

Therefore we must follow and adore the virtues revealed in the messengers of God whether in Abraham, Moses, Jesus or other prophets but we must not adhere to and adore the lamp.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 16)
 
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smaneck

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Mumin said:
That's not my question. "Manifestation" refers to "prophets". My question is why don't you say "prophets" instead of "manifestation"? And what is "sun" and "light"?
Click to expand...

Manifestations may be prophets, but not necessarily nor would I consider all prophets Manifestations. Prophethood is a function. "Manifestation" denotes a particular spiritual station.
 
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Niblo

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smaneck said:
I'd say I'd like to meet you and see if I can see the same thing.
Click to expand...

Hello Susan,

My humble mirror, now reflecting the sun shining through my window as I write, is endowed with all the attributes of the sun. It really is……..honest…………….I’m a Welshman……..would I lie?...........When can you get here?!

Yes, I was a wee bit wary of quoting someone associated with the Southern Evangelical Seminary of Charlotte, North Carolina. Mind you, I can see where he might have got his notion from, having read Bahá’u’lláh’s 19th Gleaning: ‘Therefore, these illuminated Souls, these beauteous Countenances have, each and every one of them, been endowed with all the attributes of God, such as sovereignty, dominion, and the like…..’

Every belief - no matter how fantastical to the outsider - makes perfect sense to the Believer. And I’ve yet to meet a Believer who cannot justify their belief - at least to their own satisfaction - even if, in order to do so, they have to mutilate language beyond recognition, and abandon common sense altogether.

Bahá’u’lláh wasn’t stupid. He left himself - and his followers - plenty of wriggle-room when he added: ‘…….even though to outward seeming they be shorn of all earthly majesty....’

Oh…..regarding David L Johnson. You said: ‘Getting that sort of information from a Christian would be a little like asking a Muslim about the meaning of the Trinity.

I can give you that!

You have a good day now.

Paul.
 
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