Questions about the Baha'i

jacknife said:

I had someone on these forums tell me that in heaven he will gain power over the souls of the dead.

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The bigger house thing that LoAmmi mentioned was weird enough (though, honestly, I recall hearing something like that at least at one point when I was younger), the having power over the souls of the dead thing is a new one though. Was the person who said that a Christian?

-CryptoLutheran

Generally Baha'is are very positive about the Holy Books of the various religions and we don't argue about them:

The divine purpose is that men should live in unity, concord and agreement and should love one another. Consider the virtues of the human world and realize that the oneness of humanity is the primary foundation of them all. Read the gospel and the other holy books. You will find their fundamentals are one and the same. [bless and do not curse]

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 50

Mumin said:

The Qur'an says that it is a criterion over previous Scriptures, and to not follow their desires, which suggest there is something wrong in them.

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It also says confirms the previous scripture, and there are even more verses confirming Muhammad's view over the previous scriptures:
Sura 26 195 In a clear Arabic language.
196 And indeed, it is in the scriptures of former peoples.

Mumin said:

The Bible narrates how Paul tries to stop Christians from following the law, should I say is it not corruption, while Jesus confirmed the law?

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Jesus confirms the Law, and the ceremonial laws for the Jews we don't need to follow. Do you observe Sabbath on Saturday? Do you observe passover?

Mumin said:

And the Bible says it about itself:
"`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

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We went over this before, this is talking about the Jewish oral tradition, the Talmud, that is not part of scripture, but a book recording the talks of rabies.


However, the most important part of the discusion, is that do you believe in what Jesus said, do you believe in that you should "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" (Luke 10:27)?

If you indeed think the above is a lie, do you think you might fall into the same group of people who invent against God? God willing I pray that we can all hear God clearly.

dcalling said:

It also says confirms the previous scripture, and there are even more verses confirming Muhammad's view over the previous scriptures:
Sura 26 195 In a clear Arabic language.
196 And indeed, it is in the scriptures of former peoples.

Jesus confirms the Law, and the ceremonial laws for the Jews we don't need to follow. Do you observe Sabbath on Saturday? Do you observe passover?

We went over this before, this is talking about the Jewish oral tradition, the Talmud, that is not part of scripture, but a book recording the talks of rabies.

However, the most important part of the discusion, is that do you believe in what Jesus said, do you believe in that you should "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" (Luke 10:27)?

If you indeed think the above is a lie, do you think you might fall into the same group of people who invent against God? God willing I pray that we can all hear God clearly.

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This may be a first. I am actually agreeing here with dcalling's major points.

Muslim Brothers and Sisters, It is really an unbecoming activity to disrespect another religion's Scriptures, especially if you do not have a strong background in their teachings.

Look at my posts, I am constantly defending Islam and the Prophet against unfair attacks from polemical Christians.

The Quran is said to confirm--not abrogate--previous religions and their Scriptures. The Quran repeatedly mentions the Torah, the Gospel, and the Psalms.

The Quran makes no statement about what particular writings were altered. There is absolutely zero evidence of an "original" Torah, a Gospel, or Psalms other than what we know about today. If there were more "original" "uncorrupted" versions, they would be known.

It says, "For every people we sent a Prophet with a Message in their own language." The Quran teaches the validity of all these Messages. And of course the great Ibn Arabi said the belief that previous religions are abrogated--in the sense of nullified--is the teaching of the "ignorant."

Whenever I come up against a Christian polemicist, I say something like, "Find something valuable to do with your time. " What's fair is fair, right?

Just skimmed this page only. Here are some links and excerpts that might clear up a bit of the confusion regarding the Islamic belief regarding other Scriptures and/or abrogation:

"Being the final, all-encompassing and preserved against any change, the Islamic Law abrogated all the previous Scriptures which sustained human interpolations. Abrogation generally takes place with regards to secondary matters of law. As for fundamental principles, like the Oneness of Allaah, The Most Exalted, the prohibition of idolatry, and the fundamentals of worship – matters that form the basic call of all the Messengers may Allaah exalt their mention – they are not subject to abrogation."

Dominance of the Quran over previous Scriptures - Islam web - English

Evidence That Islam Teaches That There Was Textual Corruption of The Christian and Jewish Scriptures

"Imam az-Zamakhshari clarifies... The Qur'an claims to be a confirmation, protector and touchstone of the Truth contained in the Torah and Gospel. (Az-Zamakhshari, op. cit., vol.2, p.575, cited here)

Ibn Kathir also reaffirms this position...

(but a confirmation of that which was before it) in reference to the previously revealed Divine Books, by which this Qur'an testifies to the true parts that remain in them and denies and refutes the forged parts that were added, changed and falsified by people. The Qur'an accepts or abrogates whatever Allah wills of these Books, (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Source)

Ibn Jarir said, "The Qur'an is trustworthy over the Books that preceded it. Therefore, whatever in these previous Books conforms to the Qur'an is true, and whatever disagrees with the Qur'an is false.'' (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Source, You can also see Al Tabari saying this himself in his commentary on Surah 2:41)
Refuting The Argument Regarding The Qur'an Being A Confirmation Of The Bible

steve_bakr said:

This may be a first. I am actually agreeing here with dcalling's major points.

Muslim Brothers and Sisters, It is really an unbecoming activity to disrespect another religion's Scriptures, especially if you do not have a strong background in their teachings.

Look at my posts, I am constantly defending Islam and the Prophet against unfair attacks from polemical Christians.

The Quran is said to confirm--not abrogate--previous religions and their Scriptures. The Quran repeatedly mentions the Torah, the Gospel, and the Psalms.

The Quran makes no statement about what particular writings were altered. There is absolutely zero evidence of an "original" Torah, a Gospel, or Psalms other than what we know about today. If there were more "original" "uncorrupted" versions, they would be known.

It says, "For every people we sent a Prophet with a Message in their own language." The Quran teaches the validity of all these Messages. And of course the great Ibn Arabi said the belief that previous religions are abrogated--in the sense of nullified--is the teaching of the "ignorant."

Whenever I come up against a Christian polemicist, I say something like, "Find something valuable to do with your time. " What's fair is fair, right?

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I mostly agree with you on this as well.

LoveBeingAMuslimah said:

The Qur'an is the protector of the Gospel and Torah. But which Gospel and Torah? It is the original revelations sent to Jesus and Moses (peace be upon them both) and whatever of it survives today (e.g. prophecies of Muhammad peace be upon him to come) in the scriptures of the Christians and Jews today."
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And back to the most important part of discussion, do you believe in what Jesus said, do you believe in that you should "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" (Luke 10:27)?

If you indeed think the above is a corrupted, do you think you might fall into the same group of people who invent against God?

dcalling said:

You quoted many who comment on Quran, and left out the Quran. When so many verses in Quran affirms the Gospel and Torah, and with Muhammad 300 years after Jesus, where the Torah and Gospel are well formed, there is no evidence even Muhammad believe the Gospel or Torah are lost or corrupted. Just look at Surat 10:94, sura 5:43, sura 5:47 or any references in Quran to Gospel and Torah.
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And back to the most important part of discussion, do you believe in what Jesus said, do you believe in that you should "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" (Luke 10:27)?

If you indeed think the above is a corrupted, do you think you might fall into the same group of people who invent against God?

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Evidence That Islam Teaches That There Was Textual Corruption of The Christian and Jewish Scriptures

LoveBeingAMuslimah said:

Evidence That Islam Teaches That There Was Textual Corruption of The Christian and Jewish Scriptures

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https://aslamsheriqbal.wordpress.com/2013/12/23/the-quran-confirms-the-integrity-of-the-bible/

And the question remains, do you believe in what Jesus said, do you believe in that you should "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" (Luke 10:27)?

If you indeed think the above is a corrupted, do you think you might fall into the same group of people who invent against God?

LoveBeingAMuslimah said:

Just skimmed this page only. Here are some links and excerpts that might clear up a bit of the confusion regarding the Islamic belief regarding other Scriptures and/or abrogation:

"Being the final, all-encompassing and preserved against any change, the Islamic Law abrogated all the previous Scriptures which sustained human interpolations. Abrogation generally takes place with regards to secondary matters of law. As for fundamental principles, like the Oneness of Allaah, The Most Exalted, the prohibition of idolatry, and the fundamentals of worship – matters that form the basic call of all the Messengers may Allaah exalt their mention – they are not subject to abrogation."

Dominance of the Quran over previous Scriptures - Islam web - English

Evidence That Islam Teaches That There Was Textual Corruption of The Christian and Jewish Scriptures

"Imam az-Zamakhshari clarifies... The Qur'an claims to be a confirmation, protector and touchstone of the Truth contained in the Torah and Gospel. (Az-Zamakhshari, op. cit., vol.2, p.575, cited here)

Ibn Kathir also reaffirms this position...

(but a confirmation of that which was before it) in reference to the previously revealed Divine Books, by which this Qur'an testifies to the true parts that remain in them and denies and refutes the forged parts that were added, changed and falsified by people. The Qur'an accepts or abrogates whatever Allah wills of these Books, (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Source)

Ibn Jarir said, "The Qur'an is trustworthy over the Books that preceded it. Therefore, whatever in these previous Books conforms to the Qur'an is true, and whatever disagrees with the Qur'an is false.'' (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Source, You can also see Al Tabari saying this himself in his commentary on Surah 2:41)
Imam al-Tabari relates from the eminent Jurist Ibn Juraij (80-150 AH/699-767 CE) that if the people of the book quote something from their Bible that disagrees with the Qur'an then we reject it but if it agrees with the Qur'an then we accept it. (Source)

Imam al-Bahgawi also quotes the opinion of Ibn Juraij in his commentary. (Tafsir Al Baghawi, 1/65) Abu al-Layth al-Samarqandi (d. 373 A.H.), the well known Hanafi scholar in his commentary of the Qur'an known as Bahr al-'Ulum on Surah 5, verse 48 says that the Qur'an acts as a judge over the previous scriptures. This indicates that the Qur'an judges whether something is true or false. (Source)

The Qur'an is the protector of the Gospel and Torah. But which Gospel and Torah? It is the original revelations sent to Jesus and Moses (peace be upon them both) and whatever of it survives today (e.g. prophecies of Muhammad peace be upon him to come) in the scriptures of the Christians and Jews today."

Refuting The Argument Regarding The Qur'an Being A Confirmation Of The Bible

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I understand that it is quite natural for the Quran to be the standard for Muslims. I am not well read in the Tafsir literature. However, I listen to and read the Quran in Arabic every day, and am quite familiar with it.

Is the Quran the standard for Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and Hindus? The answer is no. The reason is that Allah does not expect all the people of other cultures to adopt and learn a Book, a language, a culture, and a religion that is totally foreign to them. No.

Here you have to understand Ibn Arabi's theory of the Transcendent Union of Religions. Allah is the Greatest Name. Allah is the Divinity. Allah is the First Emanation, as Islamic mystics well know. The First Emanation of what?

This question is not for ordinary Muslims. The answer cannot be adequately described, because it is beyond the realm of language. But we must use language, so we might call It the Absolute, That Which is Beyond Being, the Unmanifested Source. It is where all religions meet at a Single Summit. Here I can only recommend, "The Paths of Transcendence," by Reza Shah-Kazemi, so as not to go far afield.

The significance of the Absolute is simply this: Every religion has its people, language, and culture; that is, every revealed religion is relative, in the face of the Absolute. There is even an element of relativity in Allah, insofar as He is Divinity in Manifestation. This subject can be quite involved. An important point to keep in mind is that the inner meaning and language of every religion has a direct correspondence.

That was not for ordinary Muslims, so these will probably believe that saying the Quran is the standard is a universal statement applying to everyone on the globe rather than a specific statement applying specifically to Muslims.

There is a verse in the Kitab-i-Iqan that for Baha'is is important in the discussion... It is not the actual text that is corrupted so much as the varying interpretations.

"...by corruption of the text is meant that in which all ... divines are engaged today, that is the interpretation of God's holy Book in accordance with their idle imaginings and vain desires."

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 86)

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Hello Susan,

You claim there are: ‘many verses (in the Noble Qur’an) which condemn those who insist there aren't going to be any more prophets.’

I’ll be referring to the sermons of Imam ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib, as contained in the Nahj-ul Balāgha (a work considered authentic by Shias, but not by Sunnis). Since the Baha’i appear to favour the former over the latter I will argue from the Shia standpoint; and will assume that the reported words of the Imam are both authentic and accurate. I’ll spread my response over several posts.

Let’s have a look at each of the verses you quote:

One:

‘Joseph came to you before with clear signs, but you never ceased to doubt the message he brought you. When he died, you said: “Allah will not send another messenger.” In this way Allah leaves the doubting rebels to stray…’

(Ghafir: 34).

Comment:

In this sura an unknown believer is addressing his contemporaries: ‘My people, I fear your fate will be the fate of those others who opposed (their prophets) the fate of the people of Noah, Ad, Thamud, and those who came after them - Allah never wills injustice on His creatures. My people, I fear for you on the Day you will cry out to one another, the Day you will turn tail and flee with no one to defend you from Allah! Whoever Allah leaves to stray will have no one to guide him. Joseph came to you before with clear signs, but you never ceased to doubt the message he brought you. When he died, you said, “Allah will not send another messenger.”’ (30-34).

These verses condemn the disobedience and complacency of those who came before Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam); and who assumed - wrongly - that no messenger would follow their own.

When the Muslims say that no prophet will come after Muhammad they are not making an assumption. They are acting on his own words: ‘O people, no prophet will come after me.’ (Final Sermon).

Two:

‘The Jews have said: “Allah is tight-fisted,” but it is they who are tight-fisted, and they are rejected for what they have said. Truly, Allah’s hands are open wide: He gives as He pleases. What has been sent down to you from your Lord is sure to increase insolence and defiance in many of them. We have sown enmity and hatred amongst them till the Day of Resurrection. Whenever they kindle the fire of war, Allah will put it out. They try to spread corruption in the land, but Allah does not love those who corrupt.’

(Al-Ma’ida: 64).

Comment:

The title of this Medinan sura (‘Al-Ma’ida&#8217 is translated ‘The Feast’; and its central theme is the regulation of lawful and unlawful food. Believers are called upon to fulfil their obligations as a consequence of accepting the faith, including its dietary prohibitions.

The sura is also concerned with pledges given to Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) by the People of the Book; and how the Prophet should behave when these pledges are broken: ‘Messenger, do not be grieved by those who race to surpass one another in disbelief - those who say with their mouths: “We believe,” but have no faith in their hearts, and the Jews who listen eagerly to lies and to those who have not even met you, who distort the meanings of (revealed) words and say (to each other): “If you are given this ruling, accept it, but if you are not, then beware!” If Allah intends some people to be so misguided, you will be powerless against Allah on their behalf. These are the ones whose hearts Allah does not intend to cleanse - a disgrace for them in this world, and then a heavy punishment in the Hereafter - they listen eagerly to lies and consume what is unlawful. If they come to you (Prophet) for judgement, you can either judge between them, or decline - if you decline, they will not harm you in any way, but if you do judge between them, judge justly: Allah loves the just - but why do they come to you for judgement when they have the Torah with Allah’s judgement, and even then still turn away? These are not believers.’ (41-43).

Nothing in this sura speaks of any messenger to come after Muhammad.

Three:

‘We said: “Get out, all of you!” But when guidance comes from Me, as it certainly will, there will be no fear for those who follow My guidance nor will they grieve - those who disbelieve and deny Our messages shall be the inhabitants of the Fire, and there they will remain.’

(Al-Baqara: 38-39).

Comment:

These verses are set in the context of Adam and Eve’s expulsion from the Garden: ‘We said: “Adam, live with your wife in this garden. Both of you eat freely there as you will, but do not go near this tree, or you will both become wrongdoers.” But Satan made them slip, and removed them from the state they were in. We said: “Get out, all of you! You are each other’s enemy. On earth you will have a place to stay and livelihood for a time.” Then Adam received some words from his Lord and He accepted his repentance: He is the Ever Relenting, the Most Merciful.’ (35-37).

The guidance that Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) refers to is that provided by the prophets up to, and including Mohammed (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam). Those who follow that guidance will have nothing to fear. Those who refuse will find themselves in a spot of bother. The emphasis here is on the message and not the messenger.

Four:

‘So We have sent down the Qur’an to give judgement in the Arabic language. If you were to follow their desires, after the knowledge that has come to you, you would have no one to guard you or protect you from Allah. We sent messengers before you and gave them wives and offspring; no messenger was given the power to produce a miracle except with Allah’s permission. There was a Scripture for every age: Allah erases or confirms whatever He will, and the source of Scripture is with Him.

(Al-Ra‘d: 37-38). You quoted verse 38 alone.

Comment:

This sura makes clear that Muhammad is one of a long tradition of prophets. His role is to deliver the message, and nothing else. Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) is the one who calls people to account for their deeds, and He is the witness for the truth of the message.

The line ‘there was a Scripture for every age’ refers to the sacred books that came before the Qur’an. There is nothing in this sura that speaks of a prophet (or of a Book) to come after Muhammad.

Five:

‘Alas for human beings! Whenever a messenger comes to them they ridicule him.’

(Ya Sin: 30).

Comment:

They certainly do. Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) said: ‘A prophet is despised only in his own country, among his own relations and in his own house' (Mark 6:4).

Six:

‘Say (Prophet): “If the whole ocean were ink for writing the words of my Lord, it would run dry before those words were exhausted” - even if We were to add another ocean to it.”’

(Al-Kahf: verse 109).

Comment:

Someone whose life has just been saved by the selfless act of another will say: ‘Words cannot express how grateful I feel.’ It’s a figure of speech, and we all know what it means. Verse 109 is also a figure of speech; one that expresses the wonder and majesty of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla). No amount of words can ever express what He is and what He knows.

Seven:

‘Children of Adam, when messengers come to you from among yourselves, reciting My revelations to you, for those who are conscious of Allah and live righteously, there will be no fear, nor will they grieve.’

(Al-A‘raf: Verse 35).

Comment:

This verse reminds us that all who obey the messengers of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla), and who live righteously will have their reward. Again the emphasis is on the message not the messenger.

On the other hand there does seem to be an ambiguity in the words ‘when messengers come to you’, and this needs to be clarified.

The scholars have identified two types of text within the Qur’an: unequivocal (nass) and apparent (dhahir). The former does not give rise to any other possibility at all (for example, 'the girl is five' cannot mean ‘the boy is six or four&#8217. The latter (dhahir) is open to interpretation.

It could be argued that the words ‘when messengers come to you’ are dhahir and open to interpretation; that they hint at the possibility of a messenger after Muhammed.

In his First Sermon Imam ʿAlī says:

‘In it (the Qur’an) there are some verses whose knowledge is obligatory and others whose ignorance by the people is permissible. It also contains what appears to be obligatory according to the Book but its repeal is signified by the Prophet’s action (Sunnah)…’

Comment:

Verses that are open to interpretation must be subject to the Sunnah. What does the Prophet have to say about them? Do the words ‘when messengers come to you’ allow us to say that Muhammed is not the last of the prophets? Let’s see what Imam Ali has to say.

Again from the First Sermon:

‘In this way ages passed by and times rolled on, fathers passed away while sons took their places till Allah deputised Muhammad (peace be upon him and his progeny) as His Prophet, in fulfilment of His promise and in completion of His Prophethood.’

Comment:

The Iman makes a very interest statement: that Prophethood belongs to Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) alone. The messengers are simply the means by which Prophethood is expressed. The chain of messengers began with Adam (ʿalayhi as-salām) and, according to the Imam, was completed by Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam).