simchat_torah said:
Not actually, YOU claimed that my interpretation was wrong or out of context. So the burden of proof is on you.
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simchat_torah said:Well, achi... since you're the one making the claim... I think the burden of proof lies upon you.
Quote us the references, and through proofs, show us how your claims are made valid.
shalom,
yafet
These are teh claims I am referring to... they have gone unproven. Yes, your claims are listed, but no proof is given. I'll take it upon myself to do the work.1 - In the book of Tobit, the 'angel' of G-d not only lies, but also encourages witchcraft to expel demons;
2 - The book of Tobit inplies that almsgiving saves;
3 - The book of Tobit commands us to place bread on the grave of the righteous (what for, beats me...);
4 - The book of Wisdom 1:13 states that G-d did not create death;
5 - The book of Wisdom 3:16-19 states that children of adulterers will go to hell no matter what - That pretty much puts Solomon and all his lineage (since they are his sons) in hell;
6 - Wisdom 13:6 implies that sins done out of ignorance or 'good will' are not to blame - while Torah even provides atonement for sins committed out of ignorance;
7 - Wisdom 16:21 contradicts the account of Numbers 11:5-6
8 - Ecclesiasticus 3:3 teaches that honoring fathers atones for sins.
9 - Ecclesiasticus 3:30 also teaches almsgiving atones for sins.
10 - Ecclesiasticus 12:4-7 not only teaches us NOT TO help sinners but also says G-d will punish us with TWICE the evil if we do so;
11 - Ecclesiasticus 32:19 says we are not to regret it if we do something wrong.
12 - Ecclesiasticus 42:14 says a wicked man is better than a good woman.
13 - 2 Maccabees 12:39-45 is the classic Purgatory text - atoning for the dead is possible.
14 - The prayer of Manasseh (Ortodox Catholic canon) actually says the Patriarchs did not sin.
15 - In 3 Macabees (Ortodox Catholic canon) 6:18, men actually see the face of G-d and do not die (contrary from what G-d told Moshe)
These are teh claims I am referring to... they have gone unproven. Yes, your claims are listed, but no proof is given. I'll take it upon myself to do the work.
Christy4Christ said:Wisdom 1:13 DOES state that God did not make death, however I think it might be the way you interpret this verse. I take it to mean that God did not make death because those of us who walk with Him will not die. We will not know death so to speak. If we choose to walk on the other side then surely we will know death. Here is the verse of 13 along with the two surrounding verses. You must make your own interpretations:
This next passage doesn't look TOO much different than alot of the dreaded and scary verses of the OT. This is why it was so wonderful when Jesus came to set us free.
As far as Wisdom3:16-19
16 But the children of adulterers shall not come to perfection, and the seed of the unlawful bed shall be rooted out.
3:17 And if they live long, they shall be nothing regarded, and their last old age shall be without honour.
3:18 And if they die quickly, they shall have no hope, nor speech of comfort in the day of trial.
I am going to now show you something from the OT canon that we DO have today that also looks just as dreadful.
This is from Genesis 38:7
And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.
This speaks of a new born baby being wicked in the eyes of The Lord. To me it is not much different than the above passages from Wisdom. (Not in my interpretation anyway)
Wisdom13:6
But yet as to these they are less to be blamed. For they perhaps err, seeking God, and desirous to find him.
Compare-
Numbers 15:28 - And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
Here is Number11:5-6
We remember the fish, which we did eat in Egypt freely; the cucumbers, and the melons, and the leeks, and the onions, and the garlick: But now our soul is dried away: there is nothing at all, beside this manna, before our eyes.
here is Wisdom16:21
For thy sustenance shewed thy sweetness to thy children, and serving every man's will, it was turned to what every man liked
It is my opinion that these two verses are addressing totally different situations. I do not see them as being a contradiction per say.
I am sorry but concerning Ecclesiasticus 3:3 I will give the whole story and not just the one verse. We start with verse 2 and end with verse 9
3:2 Children, hear the judgment of your father, and so do that you may be saved.
3:3 For God hath made the father honourable to the children: and seeking the judgment of the mothers, hath confirmed it upon the children.
3:4 He that loveth God, shall obtain pardon for his sins by prayer, and shall refrain himself from them, and shall be heard in the prayer of days.
3:5 And he that honoureth his mother is as one that layeth up a treasure.
3:6 He that honoureth his father shall have joy in his own children, and in the day of his prayer he shall be heard.
3:7 He that honoureth his father shall enjoy a long life: and he that obeyeth the father, shall be a comfort to his mother.
3:8 He that feareth the Lord, honoureth his parents, and will serve them as his masters that brought him into the world.
3:9 Honour thy father, in work and word, and all patience,
Here is what we have today on this subject.
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Again I don't clearly see a contradiction above.
Compare these:
ECCLESIASTICUS3:30
The congregation of the proud shall not be healed: for the plant of wickedness shall take root in them, and it shall not be perceived.
Job 40:12
Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.
Here is ECCLESIASTICUS 12:4-6
Give to the merciful and uphold not the sinner: God will repay vengeance to the ungodly and to sinners, and keep them against the day of vengeance.
12:5 Give to the good, and receive not a sinner.
12:6 Do good to the humble, and give not to the ungodly: hold back thy bread, and give it not to him, lest thereby he overmaster thee.
To me this is the same as:
Psalms1:1-6
Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish
ECCLESIASTICUS 32:19
He that seeketh the law, shall be filled with it: and he that dealeth deceitfully, shall meet with a stumblingblock therein
Ecclesiasticus 42:14 says a wicked man is better than a good woman.
Here is what the whole story says:
Ecclesiasticus-
42:11 Keep a sure watch over a shameless daughter: lest at anytime she make thee become a laughingstock to thy enemies, and a byword in the city, and a reproach among the people, and she make thee ashamed before all the multitude.
42:12 Behold not everybody's beauty: and tarry not among women.
42:13 For from garments cometh a moth, and from a woman the iniquity of a man.
42:14 For better is the iniquity of a man, than a woman doing a good turn, and a woman bringing shame and reproach.
*Note* Better is the iniquity, etc. . .That is, there is, commonly speaking, less danger to be apprehended to the soul from the churlishness, or injuries we receive from men, than from the flattering favours and familiarity of women
You said: 2 Maccabees 12:39-45 is the classic Purgatory text - atoning for the dead is possible.
39: On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers.
40: Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen.
41: So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden;
42: and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
43: He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection.
44: For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.
45: But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought
The question isn't as to whether or not this is TRUE the question as I see it is: Is there something in the Old Testament to contradict this? I couldn't find anything
simchat_torah said:Jethro made an oath to G-d that the first thing that came out of his hosue when he came home he would sacrafice. Jethro then sacrificed his daughter as she was the first thing out of his house. He sacrificed her to G-d.
simchat_torah said:Is this a good example Christy?
simchat_torah said:oops, Jephthah.close...
I guess I had the beverly hillbillies on my mind. *shrug*
BenTsion said:I'm taking a pre-service training course at the school I was hired to teach at. It started today
I've not been paying attention...All of a sudden I find a real meaty, informative discussion on CF! Who'd a thought???Christy4Christ said:We are obviously reading two different translations. I am read from the Douay-Rheims bible. Alot of the things you wrote and I wrote are VERY different. In my other Catholic bible I compared one of your verses and it was the same and NOT the same is in the Douay-Rheims. However in my Catholic bible (the international student catholic bible) there is a HUGE difference in something you said. Sirach 32:19 reads: Does not a little suffice for a well bred man? When he lies down, it is without discomfort. I don't see the similarites.
Let's start over here. Which bible are you reading so we can synchronize ?
koilias said:.
One point of interest: First Maccabees was written in Hebrew first. Second Maccabees tells basically the same story but it was written in Greek from the beginning. Compare and contrast and you will see what "translation Greek" sounds like in distinction to good Greek, for those of you who read Greek. First Maccabees sounds a lot like Luke, and parts of Matthew and Mark.
Yes, perhaps. They are the most selective of all Christians...that goes too for the existing cannonical books. You get a feeling that what they can't read allegorically through the lens of eschatalogy they discard altogether...But I won't open that can of worms...Linda8 said:Doesn't Maccabees solve the confusion that the so called future
roman emperor people have regarding past events being fulfilled.?
That is why some of the end time "specialists" call Maccabees non canonical.
They want to hide from reality of Daniel 8, 11 being fulfilled.
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