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I hear that!I have heard of locutions that actually put it as a place within heaven. I don't really care where it is as long as I can make it there. The sooner the better.
No, we are fools to assume that we ARE completely sanctified.Why isn't the cross enough to sanctify us? Why do we need purgatory, if it even exists since we haven't proven that yet, to sanctify us? Isn't what Jesus did for us enough to fully cleanse us and make us holy? It's true that nothing holy will enter the Kingdom. However, Jesus paid our debt in full when he shed His blood. Aren't we fools to assume that we aren't completely sanctified?
What happens if we sin a sin not unto death so we have not left the friendship of God, yet do not die to ourselves in this matter?Who are we to say something is unholy that God has made holy? If we are saved and we transgress, aren't we to die to ourself daily as Paul tells us?
Nobody said in the bible that it can be done after death. But yet this is what the church teaches. Why does the church teach that which is not biblical?
That's because your bible is an abridged version deliberately made so to remove the books where some of the most explicit passsage occur.
We still use the same bible Jesus and the first Christians used. UNabridged.
Hi everyone! I have some questions about Catholicism. In this post, I'm specifically asking about purgatory. I'm hoping some of you can shed some light on the topic for me. I grew up Catholic and was taught that purgatory was where many of us will go after we die. However, in my study of the Scriptures, I have never been able to find any verses in context of the topic to affirm this belief. In fact, it appears to me that purgatory contradicts scripture. I don't want to believe that is true. So hopefully you all can help. It's been difficult for me to continue with my beliefs of Catholic doctrine when they don't seem to be lining up with Scripture. So I'm really hoping some of you can mentor me and answer some questions. I definitely don't want to be misled. Please bare with me as this is kind of long. Hope you all understand. I'm just confused about this and I have a lot of questions!
Just to make sure we're on the same page, one belief that tends to be universal throughout Catholicism and many "Protestant" religions is that the Bible is the infallible and inerrant word of God. The Scriptures do claim to be the Word of God not only in a general sense, but specifically. For example, 2 Timothy 3:16 tells us that the very words of the Bible were "God breathed" which is the literal translation of the Greek word often translated as "inspired". 2 Peter 1:21 says that holy men of God were carried along by the Holy Spirit, writing down the very words and thoughts that God wanted them to record. God used men to communicate His Word and kept this communication free from error. So if the bible is as it claims to be, which is the actual and inspired Word of God, does it make mistakes? My belief is that it does not. Is this what Catholics believe as well? I'm assuming so, because I recall learning this in Catholic school growing up.
Second, I have always been taught that we cannot use Scripture against Scripture and that we need to harmonize what we read to make one central truth. Psalm 119:160 tells us "The Sum of Your word is truth, And every one of your righteous ordinances is everlasting." Again, I ask is this the same belief throughout Catholicism?
Third, I was taught that we cannot twist Scripture and take it out of context in order to back up man made doctrine. Here are some scriptures that refer to this and I'm wondering if Catholics are in agreement? Deuteronomy 4:1-2 says "Hear now, O Israel, the decrees and laws I am about to teach you. Follow them so that you may live and may go in and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you".
Deuteronomy 12:32 says "See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it".
Proverbs 30:6 says "Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar".
Matt 15:6-9 says "Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.
1 Cor 4:6 "Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written."
Rev 20:18-19 "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."
I saw on another thread a link to a website which gave a definition of purgatory. Is this how you all would define purgatory?
Purgatory is defined as a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions. In other words, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christians soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible?
I question this because according to Catholic Doctrine, purgatory was drawn up in the Council of Florence and Council of Trent. In other words, man made. Is this correct? I can't seem to find any reference to it in Scripture. I read the Scriptures referenced in the other thread, and I could not see the correlation of purgatory to them. If they are out of context, then they are not relevant to this topic. I recall Matthew 15:6-9 when I say this.
The bible tells us that Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins. Romans 5:8 says "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Isaiah 53:5 says But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed. Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. If we say that we have to suffer for our sins, isn't that like saying that Jesus death and resurrection was not sufficient? To say that we have to atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory, isn't that like saying the atoning sacrifice of Jesus was not sufficient? 1 John 2:2 says "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." Isn't the idea that we have to suffer for our sins after death a contradiction to everything the Bible tells us about salvation? Again, the bible is inerrant and the bible does not contradict itself, correct? So why does Catholic doctrine seem to contradict the bible? I'm just not seeing the harmony here and would really appreciate the insight.
While trying to find purgatory referenced in the Bible, I found that the primary Scriptural passage that many Catholics use in support of Purgatory is 1 Corinthians 3:15 which says, If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. Isn't this passage and context of 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 just an illustration of things going through fire as a description of our works as believers being judged? I mean, if our works are of good quality such as gold, sliver, and costly stones, then they will pass through the fire unharmed and we will be rewarded for them. If our works are of poor quality such as wood, hay, and straw, then they will be consumed by the fire and there won't be a reward. The passage doesn't say that the believers pass through the fire, but rather that the believers works pass through the fire. Isn't that correct? 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the believer escaping through the flames, not being cleansed or atoned by the flames. To use this to affirm purgatory, isn't that taking it out of context and not a depiction of purgatory? I just don't see Purgatory mentioned in the bible. It sounds like this scripture refers to works as measures for reward, not as a means to salvation. I would love to find scripture to back up purgatory because it is a comforting thought if it's true. But please, if you reference any Scripture to support purgatory, please carefully read the whole chapter and study the context in which it's used. I just want to make sure it's contextual so I can understand this better.
If we believe in purgatory, aren't we simply misunderstanding Jesus' sacrifice? Wasn't Christ's once for all sacrifice absolutely and perfectly sufficient? Hebrews 7:27 says "who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself". How can meritorious works contribute to salvation? Does Jesus sacrifice have a need of additional contribution? Ephesians 2:8-9. says "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Do we need a man made up place called purgatory? Because of Jesus' sacrifice, aren't we already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified? I can't see that there are any works that we can do to make amends for our sins, nor can I see how we can buy forgiveness or earn it in any other way. Isn't salvation is a gift? A free gift? Aren't we saved through faith? Isn't this man made doctrine contrary to what the bible tells us?
Isn't the idea of Purgatory and the doctrines associated with it such as praying for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc., all failing to recognize that Jesus death and resurrection was and is sufficient to pay the price for everyone of our sins? Isn't that all we need? Jesus was God incarnate as we see in John 1:1 and John 1:14 and He paid the price for our sins. Paid in full! Because He died for our sins, He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins. Isn't this true? To say that Jesus sacrifice was just for the atoning of original sin, or sins committed before salvation, isn't that an outright attack on the person and work of Jesus? If we say we have to pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins, isn't that like saying that Jesus death was not a perfect and complete sacrifice? Why would we think Jesus' death was an insufficient sacrifice? On the contrary, isn't what Jesus did for us all we need to be saved? Is seems Scripture tells us we just need to believe and be baptized.
I've read in the bible that after death is when we will be "away from the body and at home with the Lord" 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 and Philippians 1:23. It doesn't say away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire. If that was what was meant, wouldn't the bible have said that? It is inerrant afterall, right? According to Scripture, after death, we are immediately in the presence of the Lord because of Christ's perfect and complete sacrifice. We're fully cleansed from sin and do not need anyone to pray for us nor can we do anything to earn our way to heaven from a man made concept of purgatory, isn't that correct according to scripture? After we die, it's too late, isn't it? Game over. We don't get a second chance. Why do we believe a man made doctrine that contradicts the bible? By believing this doctrine, aren't we risking our eternity? This is eternity for crying out loud! FOREVER! Without end. If these things doctrine is teaching us are true, shouldn't they be in the bible and surely they would not contradict what scripture says? I think we need to take heed and carefully study what we are taught and make sure that it is in harmony with the inerrant Word of God. The bible warns us not to nullify the word of God for the sake of tradition; The teachings which are rules taught by men. I don't know, but it seems to me that purgatory is one example of this. I'd love if someone can help me out here and prove to me otherwise. I'd hate to think what I've been taught all these years is inaccurate.
Since I mentioned venial sin above, I wanted to ask about that also briefly. The concept of mortal and venial sin seems to be misrepresentative of how God views sin as portrayed in the bible. Scripture states that God will be just and fair in His punishment of sin and on judgement day some sin will merit greater punishment than others Matthew 11:22 24; Luke 10:12, 14. However, all sin will be punished by God. Every one of us sin Romans 3:23. Just compensation for sin is eternal death Romans 6:23. I don't see where the Bible says that some sins are worthy of eternal death and some aren't. Don't any and all sins make us worthy of eternal separation from God? I just don't see how "venial sin" is biblical, and if it's not, there is no need for "purgatory", correct?
The bible tells us in "Revelation 18:4-5: "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities." This verse just clings to me whenever I think of doctrine that appears to be contradictory to Scripture.
Sorry this has been so long. I just have a lot of questions and hopefully some of you can enlighten me. It is not my desire to sound preachy or to start a debate or anything like that. I'm just a confused Christian, looking for some insight. Thank you in advance for your time and answering my questions!
Have a Jesus filled day!
No, we don't have an enternal body when we enter heaven. We enter heaven separated from our body. We will not receive our body until the Resurrection . . .then our dead body will be raised incorruptable and we receive this transformed body back.
Jesus came to save us body and soul, not just soul
You are aware that Jesus and His disciples did not have the same bible we have today? They had the Torah, and the Tenach.
Do you use a bible that contains the New Testament? If you do you aren't using the same "bible" that Jesus used.
1 Cor. 15
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
Hebrew 4:12
"For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart."
Humans are body, soul and spirit.
was there a different OT floating around that didn't have those books?ummm . . . .. .
You are wrong. They had the Septuagint which included all the OT books that are found in the Catholic bible today. We use the SAME OT that Jesus used.
Why don't you?
The Apostles and writers of scripture for the Church gave us, and used the writings we now have in our NT.
was there a different OT floating around that didn't have those books?
NOT trying to cause anyone to stumble
That's because your bible is an abridged version deliberately made so to remove the books where some of the most explicit passsage occur.
We still use the same bible Jesus and the first Christians used. UNabridged.
In this unabridged bible, there are to be found scriptures which make it very clear that there must be such a place or state.
Peter warns that no scripture is of any private interpretation.
Do you seriously believe you are using the same bible Jesus and the first Christians used? I mean, seriously?
You are aware that 2 Peter 1:20-21 refers to how the prophecy of the Scripture came about. That it was not the prophet's own interpretation, but it came moved by the Holy Spirit, spoken from God. So in other words, this scripture is not in reference to people privately interpreting the bible. Rather it means that Scripture is God breathed.
20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
Please do not use Scripture out of context. I'm sure that offends many of us Christians as well as our Creator.
I'm the OP of this thread and I was actually wondering this myself. I did come here wanting genuine answers.
Yet I've been given a hodge podge of confusion and no clear answers.
The way I've been treated in this thread has left me with a bad taste, sorry to say.
It's clear to me that purgatory was man instituted. I have not seen any clear evidence of it in scripture.
I've found that the same men who instituted purgatory, were also proponents of selling of indulgences during their time. Martin Luther, who was Catholic at the time, opposed the selling of these indulgences. This sparked the protestant reformation.
Some good for the Catholic church must have come out of this, because a few years later, the selling of indulgences were outlawed.
Also, the bible was translated into the language of the people so that they could read it. Eventually, even Mass was given in the language of the people.
So it seems some good did come from the Protestant reformation for the Catholic church.
It also seems that indulgences are now brought back for a donation to the church as of February this year. It seems the Catholic church has been wishy washy in the area of indulgences.
How can we know for sure that what they say concerning purgatory is indeed infallible? There must have been some fallibilty in the realm of indulgences if it were once ok, then not ok, then ok again. No?
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