Questions about Evidence

Usus Vox Tractus · Jul 30, 2014

Loudmouth said:
You are assuming the conclusion. That's not how logic works.

No, I saying if God created all things, there is nothing naturally existing that is not God's creation. There are no parts.

Same if the universe is a completely mechanical "natural" occurrence. It's 100% created/supported by such.

The odd man out is "us" meaning sentient life able to manipulate the environment.

One has to know a decent amount about what already exists to interpolate correctly backwards so that every proceeds forwards correctly.

We also have different definitions of God.

lesliedellow · Jul 30, 2014

HitchSlap said:
W/SAP is not impressive.

An English translation would be nice. In any case, whether or not you find it impressive is no concern of mine.

AV1611VET · Jul 30, 2014

Usus Vox Tractus said:
A universe is what happens when God removes himself in a very specific manner so that He does not pervade all space possible with almighty God-ness.

Actually God created the universe ex nihilo by speaking it into existence.

When the Fall occurred, God basically did what you just said.

He "turned off the Shekinah light," so to speak, and backed off to let the universe run down on its own.

Usus Vox Tractus · Jul 30, 2014

AV1611VET said:
Actually God created the universe ex nihilo by speaking it into existence.

When the Fall occurred, God basically did what you just said.

He "turned off the Shekinah light," so to speak, and backed off to let the universe run down on its own.

That is similar to how I've traced infinite universal creation.

It starts with all space saturated with something akin to quark matter; billions of times denser and hotter than the atomic matter. God in the Highest before creation. All consuming fire. Space is made in this by "sonic" cavitation. It's actually an electric discharge but functionally the same as cymatics. Vibration creates form. God spoke the Word.

So space is made inside the infinite ocean for the universe to exist by a contraction of the Infinite. Look up the tzimtzum.

That is the creation of the universe "out of nothing" because a void space was created in the saturate. All orbital can now occur within. That is a beginning.

But the Infinite did not create one universe, it creates infinite universe at the same time as a perfectly flat plane and keeps creating planes as it travels eternally "downward" stacking planes of spheres upon planes of spheres.

This unifies the macro quantum constants for all universes and solves for dark energy. All universes are finely tuned for life.

Usus Vox Tractus · Jul 30, 2014

AV1611VET said:
Actually God created the universe ex nihilo by speaking it into existence.

When the Fall occurred, God basically did what you just said.

He "turned off the Shekinah light," so to speak, and backed off to let the universe run down on its own.

The "watery chaos vibrated into a void and light suddenly appearing" is reproducible in science labs. Look up sono-luminescence.

AV1611VET · Jul 30, 2014

Usus Vox Tractus said:
It starts with all space saturated with something akin to quark matter;

But this is where we disagree.

There was no spacetime in the beginning -- only God.

He then spoke space & time & energy into existence, then stretched it out.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have energy already in existence and the energy withdrawing, creating a void that is the universe.

Usus Vox Tractus · Jul 30, 2014

AV1611VET said:
But this is where we disagree.

There was no spacetime in the beginning -- only God.

He then spoke space & time & energy into existence, then stretched it out.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have energy already in existence and the energy withdrawing, creating a void that is the universe.

The quark matter ocean before a beginning, that has no top or bottom is the Body of God.

His spatial expanse is infinite forever and His time is eternal. Thou has always existed. What causes time or "a beginning" is space made within God so that atomic movement through void space is possible.

Yes I have ALL MATTER and ALL ENERGY present before the beginning. That is the all-consuming fire, God in the Highest, whom no image can be made of because He is all blinding light and crushing presence. There is no room for anything else.

Atomic matter is 99.999999% empty space. Quark matter is all available space taken up by quarks. It is an infinitely super conductive Fermi liquid and excludes magnetic fields. This is also the source of gravity as all matter "wants' to return to this state.

There was a fear the Cern could create a stranglet which is a droplet of quark matter. It is billions of time more meta stable that atomic wave form matter. If it were possible for one to remain stable it would have promptly begun consuming the entire earth turning all atomic matter into itself. All consuming fire.

But to describe God as such is to describe you by your skin and bones and organs, etc. it says nothing about your struggles and dreams and accomplishments and potential. Just what is there. This is the same appreciation.

Kylie · Jul 30, 2014

AV1611VET said:
Those of you who say God provided evidence for [whatever], or God left evidence behind of [whatever]; do you mind explaining what you mean by this?

In the case of the former, are you saying God did something, then manufactured evidence and placed it around what He did, so as to leave clues?

In the case of the latter, are you saying God divinely protected evidence so it wouldn't decay, so as to insure it would serve as an audit trail of what He did?

I'm a little confused as to how you guys think God handled evidence of His handiwork.*

* Not the handiwork itself, but the evidence surrounding it.

In addition, by evidence, do you mean something that was generated as a byproduct of a specific act, or something that a specific act left behind?

If I walk across a skating rink in slippers, I could turn around, see no prints left behind, and go back and chisel footprints across the rink, so as to leave behind evidence that I walked across it.

By the same token, I could keep the temperature of the rink the same, so as to not allow any impressions that I created in the ice to distort; and I could keep people out of the rink to prevent the evidence from being contaminated.

Please explain.

A question for you, AV...

Do you think God provided (in any way) evidence for the act of creation? as described in Genesis 1? In another way, is there any investigation of the world today that I can perform that would indicate that the Biblical account of creation is correct?

AV1611VET · Jul 30, 2014

KTS said:
Do you think God provided (in any way) evidence for the act of creation? as described in Genesis 1?

No

KTS said:
In another way, is there any investigation of the world today that I can perform that would indicate that the Biblical account of creation is correct?

No

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

It does not say ...

Hebrews 11:3 Through [science] we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

GrowingSmaller · Jul 31, 2014

Ok so faith and grace turn ordinary experience into extraordinary evidence? Works for me.

Kylie · Jul 31, 2014

AV1611VET said:
No

No

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

It does not say ...

Hebrews 11:3 Through [science] we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Well, for a start, the latter would be more accurate, as it is through science we understand the things that are seen are made up of things that are not seen (all those pesky little subatomic particles).

But in any case, how do you explain this:

Romans 1:20 said:
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; that they are without excuse:

How can the works of God be clearly seen if the works of God have been cleaned up and no evidence of his creative acts remain?

Something has to take a hike, AV. Is it you or the Bible?

AV1611VET · Jul 31, 2014

KTS said:
How can the works of God be clearly seen if the works of God have been cleaned up and no evidence of his creative acts remain?

I can clearly see it is the works of God -- you can't.

That's because I don't believe in a universe that has been in operation for any longer than 6000 years.

So when I see stars that are tens of thousands of light years away, and knowing what the speed of light is, and how that light couldn't possibly reach the earth in 6000 years or less, yet it did -- that shows the works of God clearly.

Why is it that almost every one of our posts can be summed up in three words: God did it?

It's because we clearly see the works of God.

Scientists, on the other hand, claiming to be of an elite culture called the "wise men," are actually blind.

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Kylie · Jul 31, 2014

AV1611VET said:
I can clearly see it is the works of God -- you can't.

That's because I don't believe in a universe that has been in operation for any longer than 6000 years.

So when I see stars that are tens of thousands of light years away, and knowing what the speed of light is, and how that light couldn't possibly reach the earth in 6000 years or less, yet it did -- that shows the works of God clearly.

Why is it that almost every one of our posts can be summed up in three words: God did it?

It's because we clearly see the works of God.

Scientists, on the other hand, claiming to be of an elite culture called the "wise men," are actually blind.

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

In other words, your belief influences your judgement to lead you to conclude that your beliefs are correct.

Tell me, how would you differentiate between this and a self-reinforcing delusion?

TLK Valentine · Jul 31, 2014

AV1611VET said:
I can clearly see it is the works of God -- you can't.

That's because I don't believe in a universe that has been in operation for any longer than 6000 years.

So when I see stars that are tens of thousands of light years away, and knowing what the speed of light is, and how that light couldn't possibly reach the earth in 6000 years or less, yet it did -- that shows the works of God clearly.

Why is it that almost every one of our posts can be summed up in three words: God did it?

It's because we clearly see the works of God.

Scientists, on the other hand, claiming to be of an elite culture called the "wise men," are actually blind.

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Scientists can't get out of the confusion that God is the author of...

Loudmouth · Jul 31, 2014

Usus Vox Tractus said:
No, I saying if God created all things, there is nothing naturally existing that is not God's creation. There are no parts.

The same could be said if Leprechauns created all things, or if an Invisible Pink Unicorn created all things.

The part your missing is the evidence that God created anything.

AV1611VET · Jun 1, 2015

Loudmouth said:
The same could be said if Leprechauns created all things, or if an Invisible Pink Unicorn created all things.

Do L's and IPU's admit what they did in writing?

DogmaHunter · Jun 1, 2015

AV1611VET said:
Do L's and IPU's admit what they did in writing?

Plenty of gods in plenty of religions you don't believe in, do.

Wryetui · Jun 1, 2015

"Evidence"... I'm starting to hate that word, what does it mean anyway?

AV1611VET · Jun 1, 2015

DogmaHunter said:
Plenty of gods in plenty of religions you don't believe in, do.

L's and IPU's are gods, are they?

AV1611VET · Jun 1, 2015

Wryetui said:
"Evidence"... I'm starting to hate that word,

That makes two of us.

Wryetui said:
... what does it mean anyway?

Evidence is anything that dictates to an empiricist what he should believe, or what he should reject.

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