questions about catholosism

[Codeman]

Hi there- no, I'm not Catholic- actually I was raised protestant. But, I do have some questions and I am curiouse as to some things. If you don't mind, could you try to answer some of my questions?

1- why do catholics believe that mary was sinnless? (My currrent point of view so you know where I am coming from- "It doesn't say anything about that in the bible...if mary was sinnless, there would be no need for Jesus...it says that all have sinned, wouldn't that include her?")

2- why do catholics beileve in purgatory? (again.."biblical evidence?...if people can pray you into heaven, then your salvation does not really depend on you/your relationship with christ...")

3- confessional: why? ( I can definently see the good that comes from it on a personal level- makes you more aware of your sins- but that can be attained through accountability partners- so agian, if it is mandatory for salvation, then salvation wouldnt' depend upon the sacrifice of Christ and your relationship with him, but rrather on your religious habbits...")

4- we do both have the same basic ideas on salvation (other than what I just stated), right? As far as, we were sinners, christ died, we accept him, and we go to heaven when we die- in short.

thank you- sorry, I do not mean to stir up the bucket or anything, I am just looking for answers, so shoot away!!!

codeman

 

[Groovy]

No Problem! Welcome to OBOB!

I could answer your questions with personal opinion, but I have a feeling that won't do. So I will pull together a reply for you based off of Church teaching and Scripture... Give me a minute.

Blessings!
√Groovy

 

[BjBarnett]

Hi there- no, I'm not Catholic- actually I was raised protestant. But, I do have some questions and I am curiouse as to some things. If you don't mind, could you try to answer some of my questions?

Hello Codeman!

Ill be glad to try and answer your questions

1- why do catholics believe that mary was sinnless? (My currrent point of view so you know where I am coming from- "It doesn't say anything about that in the bible...if mary was sinnless, there would be no need for Jesus...it says that all have sinned, wouldn't that include her?")

Why would Mary being Sinless negate the need for Jesus? I dont understand that.. anyway the bible does not come right out and say that Mary is sinless but Luke 1:28 and 1:30 says that she is full of grace and favored with God. Someone else will have to answer this question for you better im afraid. Sacred Tradition however does confirm Mary was sinless.

2- why do catholics beileve in purgatory? (again.."biblical evidence?...if people can pray you into heaven, then your salvation does not really depend on you/your relationship with christ...")

a person can not pray you into heaven. that is totally God's decision. Purgatory is just a place that people who are going to heaven go to clean them off of the sin that they have left from Earth. Since there is no sin in heaven the excess sin has to be cleaned.

3- confessional: why? ( I can definently see the good that comes from it on a personal level- makes you more aware of your sins- but that can be attained through accountability partners- so agian, if it is mandatory for salvation, then salvation wouldnt' depend upon the sacrifice of Christ and your relationship with him, but rrather on your religious habbits...")

Jesus sent out the Apostles to forgive sins.

[bible]John 20:23[/bible]

4- we do both have the same basic ideas on salvation (other than what I just stated), right? As far as, we were sinners, christ died, we accept him, and we go to heaven when we die- in short.

umm pretty much i would say. although there is way more to it than that. If you die in a state of mortal sin then your really hurting your chances of getting into heaven. so if your saying that salvation is guarenteed then no we dont believe that.

 

[TexasCatholic]

1- why do catholics believe that mary was sinnless? (My currrent point of view so you know where I am coming from- "It doesn't say anything about that in the bible...if mary was sinnless, there would be no need for Jesus...it says that all have sinned, wouldn't that include her?")

I'm not Catholic, but I'm currently "seeking"... and I can actually give a layman's clarification on some of these from a non-Catholic perspective (I grew up Baptist)...

First, Catholics believe that Mary was sinless as a special protection from God, in order that the vessel of Jesus' birth would be completely pure... Not only virgin, but completely without any type of tainting whatsoever.... the logic makes sense when you think about it. It was not by Mary's own doing, but rather God *protected* Mary from the stain of sin. Much like Adam and Eve were before the fall.... Mary was kept pure by God so that she would be a clean/pure/unstained vessel from which the Son of God would be born.

2- why do catholics beileve in purgatory? (again.."biblical evidence?...if people can pray you into heaven, then your salvation does not really depend on you/your relationship with christ...")

This is one of the areas that we (Protestants) completely misunderstand. You can say a big "thanks" to the popular media (e.g. movies). Purgatory is, in Catholic belief, a place of cleansing. A place where souls go to be purged (purge... the root word of purgatory) of their potentially unforgiven sins (is it not possible for you to die without having asked forgiveness for a particular sin?) and purged of any inpurities in their soul as a result of past sins, including basic human imperfection... this is because only PURE souls may enter Heaven. No human (other than Jesus and potentinally Mary (see above) are completely pure, by nature, so they must be PURIFIED before entering heaven, which is a place of purity...

The point is, souls that are destined for hell do not go to purgatory. Purgatory is for souls already destined for heaven. It is just a place for cleansing in order to prepare them for heaven. Souls that are going to hell just go straight there. Hence, no amount of praying will save a condemned soul. Praying for people in purgatory is to help speed along the purification process and to let those souls know that there are people who are supporting their journey.

3- confessional: why? ( I can definently see the good that comes from it on a personal level- makes you more aware of your sins- but that can be attained through accountability partners- so agian, if it is mandatory for salvation, then salvation wouldnt' depend upon the sacrifice of Christ and your relationship with him, but rrather on your religious habbits...")

The belief is Scriptural... I'm sure a Catholic apologetic will come and give you the appropriate verse. It doesn't work to just tell a buddy, because a buddy isn't empowered to pass along absolution from God, as a Priest is.

4- we do both have the same basic ideas on salvation (other than what I just stated), right? As far as, we were sinners, christ died, we accept him, and we go to heaven when we die- in short.

Basically... Protestants and Catholics both believe we are saved by the Grace of God. Saved by Grace.

Protestants belive we're saved by Grace through Faith. Sola Fide... Faith alone. Though most Protestants agree that Faith manifests itself in works, some people do not necessarily understand this correlation.

Catholics believe we're saved by Grace through Faith and accompanied by Works. Meaning, we show through how we live our lives that we are true to our faith. Meaning, you can't just say you believe, and then not show your faith through how you live your life. Catholics do not believe you're "once saved always saved"... if you accept Jesus, but go on to live a filthy life, no amount of professions of faith will help. You must have a genuine walk with Christ, an life-long walk. Not just a one-time decision.

I hope that as a life-long Baptist I've accurately represented Catholic teaching here... I'm new to this.

-Michael

 

[Benedicta00]

Hi there- no, I'm not Catholic- actually I was raised protestant. But, I do have some questions and I am curiouse as to some things. If you don't mind, could you try to answer some of my questions?

I love it when we get the laundry list.

1- why do catholics believe that mary was sinnless? (My currrent point of view so you know where I am coming from- "It doesn't say anything about that in the bible...if mary was sinnless, there would be no need for Jesus...it says that all have sinned, wouldn't that include her?")

Because God made her that way in anticipation of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Christ saved her like he saves all of us. If you were going to create your mother would you not make her sinless if you had the power to do so? She was the pure vessel to carry God incarnate, the new covenant. Mary is the ark of the new covenant and was made pure by God to carry him in her womb because sin and God can not coexist together. There is biblical evidence but it is too in-depth to go into when you give the laundry list of questions.

2- why do catholics beileve in purgatory? (again.."biblical evidence?...if people can pray you into heaven, then your salvation does not really depend on you/your relationship with christ...")

Again it is biblical but too in-depth to go into in a short answer. All I'll say is that if you take away anything at all from this, know that purgatory is NOT forgiveness of sins after death. It is purification for those who are saved.

3- confessional: why? ( I can definently see the good that comes from it on a personal level- makes you more aware of your sins- but that can be attained through accountability partners- so agian, if it is mandatory for salvation, then salvation wouldnt' depend upon the sacrifice of Christ and your relationship with him, but rrather on your religious habbits...")

Because Jesus said so. John 20 (?) I thinks it 20... "If you forgive them [sins] they are forgiven if you hold them bound they are held bound."

4- we do both have the same basic ideas on salvation (other than what I just stated), right? As far as, we were sinners, christ died, we accept him, and we go to heaven when we die- in short.

Wrong. You have misrepresented the teachings, you really are way off base. I know not on purpose but you still have it wrong non the less.

We believe in faith and works save us in the end. We believe salvation is a process. We are "saved' at baptism when we have original sin removed from us. That is our redemption from being born cut off from God, which is being born again. We are born to Adam and in baptism born again to God through Christ’s sacrifice applied to us. Now that we are “saved” we must believe in our hearts (faith) and confess with our lips (works) and then we will be saved. See? Process.

 

[StPaul]

Hi there- no, I'm not Catholic- actually I was raised protestant. But, I do have some questions and I am curiouse as to some things. If you don't mind, could you try to answer some of my questions?

No problem, I will try to help as much as I can (and I know more knowledgeable people will be able to answer better than I).

1- why do catholics believe that mary was sinnless? (My currrent point of view so you know where I am coming from- "It doesn't say anything about that in the bible...if mary was sinnless, there would be no need for Jesus...it says that all have sinned, wouldn't that include her?")

It is necessary in view of Christ being wholly Man (as well as wholly Divine). Jesus is the Word of God. He is God became man. Jesus was sinless in that Jesus was God, and God cannot contain sin. Mary was sinless in that it was a Grace from God from the moment of her conception that she contained no Original sin. In other words, God, Jesus, was the reason of her salvation (she wasn't sinless on her own accord).

All Man (both men and women) inherit the Original Sin from their parents. But Jesus was wholly man (as well as being wholly divine), so logic would follow that if Mary inherited OS, then that same OS would follow through to Christ. One could argue that "Jesus could have prevented himself from inheriting OS", but that would mean that Jesus (our Savior) himself would need a savior (thus negating him being Wholly Divine). There are two ways of "saving" people: a) Saving someone while they are in trouble, and b) Preventative measures (saving someone before an event actually occurs). It just so happens that Mary, like all of us, was in need of a savior (and she was 'saved' preventatively).

There are two more points I would like to make before I close with this question...

1) It is actually mentioned in the Bible how Mary was sinless (her entire life-not just being saved from Original Sin), and it is all in the Greeting that the Angel Gabriel gave to Mary. "Hail, Full of Grace..." To be "Full of Grace" is to be "completely-and utterly free from Sin". One cannot be in God's Full Grace, yet still contain any stains of sin in their soul. One can receive Graces from God, but one cannot be completely Full of Grace if they were not completely sinless. And, so far, this is only the English analysis of it,... we haven't even gone into the Greek context of this greeting, and I will leave that up to someone else.

2) Going back to the point that I made about Jesus being the Word of God. Just that, Jesus is referred to the Word of God. The Bible is not the Word of God, it just tells us the story about The Word of God. Along this line,... Mary contained The Word of God in her womb. She carried the Word of God in her womb much like the Ark of the Covenant carried the words of God that Moses gave via the Ten Commandments. Mary carried the New Covenant in her womb (she is the Ark of the New Covenant). Many Early Church Fathers viewed her this way (and I suggest you read some, if you haven't already done so). When we begin to view Mary in this light, it is easier to see, Biblically, how Mary was without "imperfection" just like the Ark of the Covenant.

2- why do catholics beileve in purgatory? (again.."biblical evidence?...if people can pray you into heaven, then your salvation does not really depend on you/your relationship with christ...")

Purgatory is logical to see, given other things we know for sure. For instance:

1) We know for sure that humans are drawn to sinful habits (simple observation, plus your reference that "all have sinned" etc.)
2) We know for sure that Sin leaves a stain on the soul (i.e. it is damaging, in nature, to your spirit/spiritual life)
3) We know for sure that "nothing unclean shall enter Heaven" (insert chapter & verse)

All that is needed now is a simple explanation of what Purgatory is...

First of all, Salvation absolutely and positively does rely on you personal relationship with God and Jesus. Second of all, the only reason a soul would be in Purgatory is because they are already heading to Heaven to begin with. In the end, there are only two destinations that a soul reaches in the after-life: a) Heaven, b) Hell.

Purgatory comes in where people who are already going to Heaven, but aren't ready to "be in Heaven" yet because they still have some stain of sin on their soul (Nothing unclean shall enter heaven). Purgatory is exactly what the root word suggests; it is purgation of Sin from your soul,... it is the purging of sin from your soul. There is a beautiful verse in the Bible talking about the refiner's fire.

This is some pain involved in this process, but it is nothing in comparison to the pains experienced/felt in Hell. Where prayers fit into the equation (as I see you mentioned it in your question above) is that people can pray to help the "pain" that they may experience. This prayer isn't to plead for the Salvation for a particular soul, because they are already Saved, they are just "cleaning-up a bit" before they enter God's house.

This is the simple explanation, and it goes a little farther, in that it deals with "degrees of sin". But that would be a completely different question.

Some scripture regarding Purgatory: (from http://scripturecatholic.com/)

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 - Paul says though he will be saved, "but only" through fire. The phrase "but only" in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both rewarded and saved by fire.

1 Cor. 3:15 - when Paul teaches that those whose work is burned up will suffer loss, the phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. This means that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, which cannot mean either heaven (no need for it) or hell (expiation no longer exists).

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death.

1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17).

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins.

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God's purification of the righteous at their death.

3- confessional: why? ( I can definently see the good that comes from it on a personal level- makes you more aware of your sins- but that can be attained through accountability partners- so agian, if it is mandatory for salvation, then salvation wouldnt' depend upon the sacrifice of Christ and your relationship with him, but rrather on your religious habbits...")

There are certain sins that will certainly inhibit man's salvation: for instance, if one were to commit murder, they would be jeopardizing their salvation should they not repent. We all know we must confess our sins to God in order to have them forgiven, and God will forgive our sins should we confess our sins to Him.

Where the Sacrament of Reconciliation fits in is when Christ gave his apostles the power to "forgive, and retain" sins. The apostles passed their power onto their successors,... and so on, and so forth, from Bishops all the way down to the Priest. A simple and logical question is how do the Apostles, their successors (so on and so forth from Bishops all the way down to the Priest) know which sins to forgive or to retain if we do not, first, confess our sins to them?

Accountability partners are great, and we should all seek forgiveness and reconciliation with our neighbors, but they do not have the same "power" delegated to them that the Apostles had given to them to forgive Sins in the name of God.

Now, I know, that another valid question that could be derived from this is "How do we know that the Apostles transferred this power only to certain people,... or Why can I not interpret this verse to mean that Christians in General have the "power" to forgive" And, if you should wish to explore this new question, I am sure that no one will have any problems helping with it .

4- we do both have the same basic ideas on salvation (other than what I just stated), right? As far as, we were sinners, christ died, we accept him, and we go to heaven when we die- in short.

thank you- sorry, I do not mean to stir up the bucket or anything, I am just looking for answers, so shoot away!!!

codeman

You're right, we both believe that we are sinners, that Christ died, that Christ rose from the dead,... and not only that, He died for our sins! (What a great gift God gave us!) Should we choose not only to accept Jesus, but to strive to live life like Jesus also, then yes,... 'we go to heaven when we die'

Your questions are always welcome!,... Hope you ask many, many more!

God Bless!

 

[Groovy]

"We believe in faith and works save us in the end. We believe salvation is a process. We are "saved' at baptism when we have original sin removed from us. That is our redemption from being born cut off from God, which is being born again. We are born to Adam and in baptism born again to God through Christ’s sacrifice applied to us. Now that we are “saved” we must believe in our hearts (faith) and confess with our lips (works)" and continue to live a Godly life "and then we will be saved."

That is why OSAS does not work.

Blessings,
√Groovy

 

[Benedicta00]

"We believe in faith and works save us in the end. We believe salvation is a process. We are "saved' at baptism when we have original sin removed from us. That is our redemption from being born cut off from God, which is being born again. We are born to Adam and in baptism born again to God through Christ’s sacrifice applied to us. Now that we are “saved” we must believe in our hearts (faith) and confess with our lips (works)" and continue to live a Godly life "and then we will be saved."

That is why OSAS does not work.

Blessings,
√Groovy

Hey Groovy man, You agreeing with me or looking for a fight?

 

[Groovy]

Great Answer BubaFett! I may not need to dig anything up after all.

Blessings
√Groovy

 

[Groovy]

Hey Groovy man, You agreeing with me or looking for a fight?

LOL, jumpy aren't you?
Agreeing of course!

Bless you Michelle! Good post.
√Groovy

 

[Benedicta00]

I hope that as a life-long Baptist I've accurately represented Catholic teaching here... I'm new to this.

You did good. Have we met before? You seem familiar to me.

 

[TexasCatholic]

You did good. Have we met before? You seem familiar to me.

I'm not sure... I posted a thread a week or two ago about my questioning & journey (I posted a rather long story, it should come up on a search). I have been on CF a while, but I had been away until the last couple of weeks when I came back for a "discovery" process

Thanks!

-Michael

 

[Miss Shelby]

1- why do catholics believe that mary was sinnless? (My currrent point of view so you know where I am coming from- "It doesn't say anything about that in the bible...if mary was sinnless, there would be no need for Jesus...it says that all have sinned, wouldn't that include her?")

It says all, but not in the collective sense you are assigning to it. All meaning Jew and Gentile alike, consider who St. Paul was speaking to when he said those words. If it was all in a collective sense it would include Jesus, most of the angels and the unborn. Doesn't it say somewhere in Matthew 'all of Judea went down' that doesn't mean every single person in Judea does it?

2- why do catholics beileve in purgatory? (again.."biblical evidence?...if people can pray you into heaven, then your salvation does not really depend on you/your relationship with christ...")

Because nothing unclean can enter Heaven. See Revelation.

3- confessional: why? ( I can definently see the good that comes from it on a personal level- makes you more aware of your sins- but that can be attained through accountability partners- so agian, if it is mandatory for salvation, then salvation wouldnt' depend upon the sacrifice of Christ and your relationship with him, but rrather on your religious habbits...")

Salvation is quite dependant upon the Grace of God. God is not limited not work through Sacraments. This Sacrament was instituted by Jesus when he was on earth..giving the priesthood the power to forgive sins.

4- we do both have the same basic ideas on salvation (other than what I just stated), right? As far as, we were sinners, christ died, we accept him, and we go to heaven when we die- in short.

What does accepting him mean though? That is where we could possibly differ. We believe that accepting him requires action, saving faith in short is action. If we accept him you will know it by our fruits.

thank you- sorry, I do not mean to stir up the bucket or anything, I am just looking for answers, so shoot away!!!

codeman

Sorry for the short answers, but the long version of the request you make is extremely time consuming and drawn out. We do have an FAQ section at the top of the page if you're really interested in reading more. Here also is an excellent website.

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/faq-cc.html

Michelle

 

[Benedicta00]

I'm not sure... I posted a thread a week or two ago about my questioning & journey (I posted a rather long story, it should come up on a search). I have been on CF a while, but I had been away until the last couple of weeks when I came back for a "discovery" process

Thanks!

-Michael

No, you aren’t the guy I thought you were. Lot of similarities but I am confident, you’re not him.

Welcome.

 

[Epiphanygirl]

Wonderful answers!
The only thing I can add is the word "Catholicism" I hope the misspelling was unintentional, as I have seen another non-catholic spell it this way.

 

[StPaul]

Codeman,

A great site to visit to see some scriptural references to the answers we provid is:

http://scripturecatholic.com

For instance, with regards to your question about Mary, it provides:

Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant:

Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God's Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.

2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.

1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.

1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.

Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke's conspicuous comparison's between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the "woman" clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.

Rev 12:1 - the "woman" that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary's offspring are those who keep God's commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.

Rev. 12:2 - Some Protestants argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary's offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus.

Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.

Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.

Jer. 13:21 - Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures.

Hos. 13:12-13 - Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically.

Micah 4:9-10 - Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail.

Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives.

Mary is Ever Virgin:

Exodus 13:2,12 - Jesus is sometimes referred to as the "first-born" son of Mary. But "first-born" is a common Jewish expression meaning the first child to open the womb. It has nothing to do the mother having future children.

Exodus 34:20 - under the Mosaic law, the "first-born" son had to be sanctified. "First-born" status does not require a "second" born.

Ezek. 44:2 - Ezekiel prophesies that no man shall pass through the gate by which the Lord entered the world. This is a prophecy of Mary's perpetual virginity. Mary remained a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus.

Mark 6:3 - Jesus was always referred to as "the" son of Mary, not "a" son of Mary. Also "brothers" could have theoretically been Joseph's children from a former marriage that was dissolved by death. However, it is most likely, perhaps most certainly, that Joseph was a virgin, just as were Jesus and Mary. As such, they embodied the true Holy Family, fully consecrated to God.

Luke 1:31,34 - the angel tells Mary that you "will" conceive (using the future tense). Mary responds by saying, "How shall this be?" Mary's response demonstrates that she had taken a vow of lifelong virginity by having no intention to have relations with a man. If Mary did not take such a vow of lifelong virginity, her question would make no sense at all (for we can assume she knew how a child is conceived). She was a consecrated Temple virgin as was an acceptable custom of the times.

Luke 2:41-51 - in searching for Jesus and finding Him in the temple, there is never any mention of other siblings.

John 7:3-4; Mark 3:21 - we see that younger "brothers" were advising Jesus. But this would have been extremely disrespectful for devout Jews if these were Jesus' biological brothers.

John 19:26-27 - it would have been unthinkable for Jesus to commit the care of his mother to a friend if he had brothers.

John 19:25 - the following verses prove that James and Joseph are Jesus' cousins and not his brothers: Mary the wife of Clopas is the sister of the Virgin Mary.

Matt. 27:61, 28:1 - Matthew even refers to Mary the wife of Clopas as "the other Mary."

Matt. 27:56; Mark 15:47 - Mary the wife of Clopas is the mother of James and Joseph.

Mark 6:3 - James and Joseph are called the "brothers" of Jesus. So James and Joseph are Jesus' cousins.

Matt. 10:3 - James is also called the son of "Alpheus." This does not disprove that James is the son of Clopas. The name Alpheus may be Aramaic for Clopas, or James took a Greek name like Saul (Paul), or Mary remarried a man named Alpheus.

Misunderstanding about Romans 3:23 ("All have sinned"):

Rom. 3:23 - Some Protestants use this verse "all have sinned" in an attempt to prove that Mary was also with sin. But "all have sinned " only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle, and cleaned us up afterward through baptism. In Mary's case, God did not let her enter the mud puddle.

Rom. 3:23 - "all have sinned" also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.

Rom. 3:23 - finally, "all have sinned," but Jesus must be an exception to this rule. This means that Mary can be an exception as well. Note that the Greek word for all is "pantes."

1 Cor. 15:22 - in Adam all ("pantes") have died, and in Christ all ("pantes") shall live. This proves that "all" does not mean "every single one." This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).

Rom. 5:12 - Paul says that death spread to all ("pantes") men. Again, this proves that "all" does not mean "every single one" because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah).

Rom. 5:19 - here Paul says "many (not all) were made sinners." Paul uses "polloi," not "pantes." Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God.

Rom. 3:10-11 - Protestants also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.

Psalm 14 - this psalm does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God.

Psalm 53:1-3 - "there is none that does good" expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people "good."

Luke 18:19 - Jesus says, "No one is good but God alone." But then in Matt. 12:35, Jesus also says "The good man out of his good treasure..." So Jesus says no one is good but God, and then calls another person good.

Rom. 9:11 - God distinguished between Jacob and Esau in the womb, before they sinned. Mary was also distinguished from the rest of humanity in the womb by being spared by God from original sin.

Luke 1:47 - Mary calls God her Savior. Some Protestants use this to denigrate Mary. Why? Of course God is Mary's Savior! She was freed from original sin in the womb (unlike us who are freed from sin outside of the womb), but needed a Savior as much as the rest of humanity.

Luke 1:48 - Mary calls herself lowly. But any creature is lowly compared to God. For example, in Matt. 11:29, even Jesus says He is lowly in heart. Lowliness is a sign of humility, which is the greatest virtue of holiness, because it allows us to empty ourselves and receive the grace of God to change our sinful lives.

As you can see, all of this applies to the first question only. There is a wealth of information here, and when we answer something (with no scripture references) try looking here to see what we are talking about scripturally.

God Bless, and I hope we have been of some help for you!

 

[Codeman]

Hi all, and thank you for the responses, you have been very hospitable! Well, I learned some stuff from your responses, but I suppose that due to my mindset, I just cant see the connections that are made with some of these. My questions have been answered, but not really what I would call substantiated. I guess that I will have to agree to dissagree on this, and let it go for now. Thanx!!!
Codeman

btw, that site was a great one!

 

[StPaul]

Hi all, and thank you for the responses, you have been very hospitable! Well, I learned some stuff from your responses, but I suppose that due to my mindset, I just cant see the connections that are made with some of these. My questions have been answered, but not really what I would call substantiated. I guess that I will have to agree to dissagree on this, and let it go for now. Thanx!!!
Codeman

btw, that site was a great one!

I was wondering,... these responses were unsubstantiated in what way?
If there are any questions on how we made certain connections, or if something we said doesn't make sense,... ask us plenty of questions.

And you are right, point of view may have a lot to do with confusion (as well as using the same words to mean different things)... There have been many times where I tried to explain things that made sense to me, but to a friend that doesn't have the same background that I have, it seemed like I was crazy because the connections wasn't that obviouse to them. I guess you could say that I have needed a bump on the head a time or two to remember that there are other points of view.

God Bless!

 

[Groovy]

Hi all, and thank you for the responses, you have been very hospitable! Well, I learned some stuff from your responses, but I suppose that due to my mindset, I just cant see the connections that are made with some of these. My questions have been answered, but not really what I would call substantiated. I guess that I will have to agree to dissagree on this, and let it go for now. Thanx!!!
Codeman

btw, that site was a great one!

Hey Codeman

Do you still need some clarification on anything? If so man, feel free to ask away.

We are here for you.
Blessings in Christ.
√Groovy

 

[thereselittleflower]

I'm not Catholic, but I'm currently "seeking"... and I can actually give a layman's clarification on some of these from a non-Catholic perspective (I grew up Baptist)...

First, Catholics believe that Mary was sinless as a special protection from God, in order that the vessel of Jesus' birth would be completely pure... Not only virgin, but completely without any type of tainting whatsoever.... the logic makes sense when you think about it. It was not by Mary's own doing, but rather God *protected* Mary from the stain of sin. Much like Adam and Eve were before the fall.... Mary was kept pure by God so that she would be a clean/pure/unstained vessel from which the Son of God would be born.


This is one of the areas that we (Protestants) completely misunderstand. You can say a big "thanks" to the popular media (e.g. movies). Purgatory is, in Catholic belief, a place of cleansing. A place where souls go to be purged (purge... the root word of purgatory) of their potentially unforgiven sins (is it not possible for you to die without having asked forgiveness for a particular sin?) and purged of any inpurities in their soul as a result of past sins, including basic human imperfection... this is because only PURE souls may enter Heaven. No human (other than Jesus and potentinally Mary (see above) are completely pure, by nature, so they must be PURIFIED before entering heaven, which is a place of purity...

The point is, souls that are destined for hell do not go to purgatory. Purgatory is for souls already destined for heaven. It is just a place for cleansing in order to prepare them for heaven. Souls that are going to hell just go straight there. Hence, no amount of praying will save a condemned soul. Praying for people in purgatory is to help speed along the purification process and to let those souls know that there are people who are supporting their journey.


The belief is Scriptural... I'm sure a Catholic apologetic will come and give you the appropriate verse. It doesn't work to just tell a buddy, because a buddy isn't empowered to pass along absolution from God, as a Priest is.



Basically... Protestants and Catholics both believe we are saved by the Grace of God. Saved by Grace.

Protestants belive we're saved by Grace through Faith. Sola Fide... Faith alone. Though most Protestants agree that Faith manifests itself in works, some people do not necessarily understand this correlation.

Catholics believe we're saved by Grace through Faith and accompanied by Works. Meaning, we show through how we live our lives that we are true to our faith. Meaning, you can't just say you believe, and then not show your faith through how you live your life. Catholics do not believe you're "once saved always saved"... if you accept Jesus, but go on to live a filthy life, no amount of professions of faith will help. You must have a genuine walk with Christ, an life-long walk. Not just a one-time decision.

I hope that as a life-long Baptist I've accurately represented Catholic teaching here... I'm new to this.

-Michael

Hi Michael . .

I am impressed! Baptist no less !! (now, the million dollar question is . . how much longer will you be baptist ?! )

You nailed it!


Are you taking RCIA classes this year by any chance?





I hope we will see more of you here in OBOB! Let us know if we can help at all!


Peace in Him!