Question.

aReformedPatriot · Nov 21, 2004

What is the official catholic position on works/deeds. Im not looking for a long winded theological work but more of a concise statement by you guys

Are works a by-product of your faith or does faith come by works, hows it work for you?

Peace In Christ my Friends
Mark

Highway of Life · Nov 21, 2004

The Lord's Envoy said:
What is the official catholic position on works/deeds. Im not looking for a long winded theological work but more of a concise statement by you guys

Are works a by-product of your faith or does faith come by works, hows it work for you?

Peace In Christ my Friends
Mark

Hey Lord's Envoy!

In really, really, really super-short: works are a by-product of our faith. But without works, our faith is dead.

Blessings,
Highway of Life

thereselittleflower · Nov 21, 2004

Works and faith are the hearts response to God's Divine Sanctifying Grace infused into our souls at the new birth.

Both are essential . .

Faith without works is a dead corpse

Works are to faith like the spirit is to the body

Both are necessary . .

Works are good works done in and through God's Grace . . not on our own strength or outside God's Grace.

does this help?

Peace in Him!

aReformedPatriot · Nov 21, 2004

Yes those do help. I agree, works are a by product of faith. Do you find most protestants agree with that? Why or Why not?

thereselittleflower · Nov 21, 2004

The Lord's Envoy said:
Yes those do help. I agree, works are a by product of faith. Do you find most protestants agree with that? Why or Why not?

I can't speak for Highway to Life, but I would hestate to say that works are simply a by-product of our faith . . they are an essential element of our response in faith . . they are part of our heart's response . . not simply a by-product . .

See, James likens faith to the body, and works to the spirit . . this actually puts works on a higher plane then faith, as the spirit is on a higher plane than the body .. a very strange concept for protestants, but James I believe, did this purposefully . .

So works are not relegated to a 2nd class status . .

But in protestantism, most do see works simply as a by-product . .

Peace in Him!

Highway of Life · Nov 21, 2004

The Lord's Envoy said:
Yes those do help. I agree, works are a by product of faith. Do you find most protestants agree with that? Why or Why not?

It's hard to say what 'most' believe, because many believe something different. It just depends on what denomination you ask.

However, I believe that more likely they do agree.

The thing about it is that they believe that Catholics believe in a 'works based' salvation. Which is false.

Peace Brother!
Highway of Life

Highway of Life · Nov 21, 2004

Hey Therese!

I do know that it is not as simple as that, I answerd the question as simply as I could.

Works, grace and faith are all equal, because by grace we are saved by faith, and we live with works.

Works is the most important thing we can do.

Blessings,
Highway of Life

aReformedPatriot · Nov 21, 2004

thereselittleflower said:
I can't speak for Highway to Life, but I would hestate to say that works are simply a by-product of our faith . . they are an essential element of our response in faith . . they are part of our heart's response . . not simply a by-product . .

See, James likens faith to the body, and works to the spirit . . this actually puts works on a higher plane then faith, as the spirit is on a higher plane than the body .. a very strange concept for protestants, but James I believe, did this purposefully . .

So works are not relegated to a 2nd class status . .

But in protestantism, most do see works simply as a by-product . .

Peace in Him!

So works are more important than faith, in the grand scheme of things? (i have more questions ). Do these works earn anyone something?

Highway of Life · Nov 21, 2004

The Lord's Envoy said:
So works are more important than faith, in the grand scheme of things? (i have more questions ). Do these works earn anyone something?

hmmm... good question... Therese?

Here we go.... weeeeeee!

aReformedPatriot · Nov 21, 2004

Highway of Life said:
hmmm... good question... Therese?

Here we go.... weeeeeee!

Lol. Im not trying to pick a fight. I usually reserve debating for moral issues anymore now instead of theology. I just have an insatiable urge to ask everybody questions about everything. I drive myself nuts and I feel like id be a good interrogator sometimes

thereselittleflower · Nov 21, 2004

The Lord's Envoy said:
So works are more important than faith, in the grand scheme of things? (i have more questions ). Do these works earn anyone something?

No they are not more important than faith . . they are inseparable from faith, just as necesssary as faith.

No, they do not "earn" you something, other than in the sense that our "rewards" in heaven are based on our works . .

But this idea of "earned" does not really belong . .

Are we confusting you more?

Peace in Him!

aReformedPatriot · Nov 21, 2004

thereselittleflower said:
No they are not more important than faith . . they are inseparable from faith, just as necesssary as faith.

No, they do not "earn" you something, other than in the sense that our "rewards" in heaven are based on our works . .

But this idea of "earned" does not really belong . .

Are we confusting you more?

Peace in Him!

Nope.

What Kind of Works does a Catholic do?

marciadietrich · Nov 21, 2004

hi thereselittleflower...

I thought works can be meritorious, can have merit before God to help ourselves and others:

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."62

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

We cannot merit the grace of initial salvation, which is purely a gift of God, but we can thru our actions merit other graces for ourselves and others (such as prayers for those in purgatory).

Faith, though not a work, is in part a gift from God and in part a free response by man and thus an act of will. So even faith has an aspect of action to it.

Marcia

DrBubbaLove · Nov 21, 2004

Highway, the trouble comes when it looks to you like we are saying one can earn your pass. That is a misunderstanding, though will admit that some of us behave this way. We are still saved by grace and grace alone. But unlike most Protestants we say that faith is not all that is needed to obtain the ultimate application of grace to get into heaven. Grace can be applied throughout our lives and to varying degrees. Baptism imparts grace to wash away all prior sin. Mary was "full of Grace" which obviously we would say is the most one can get and would mean one could not sin in that state of being "full of God's grace".

We are expected to do good works, as in help the poor. This would be an outward expression of our faith, so that by our works we might be a light.

There is also something we must each do about sin, which is what created a barrier between God and us in the first place. We believe that if something is not done about it, especially mortal sin, then ones ultimate destination is changed. We believe that is what Paul meant by "working out" our salvation. This work is in an inward expression of our faith. So both works and faith are absolutely necessary.

So the idea is we must do something. Having to do something is work.

Benedicta00 · Nov 21, 2004

The Lord's Envoy said:
What is the official catholic position on works/deeds. Im not looking for a long winded theological work but more of a concise statement by you guys

Are works a by-product of your faith or does faith come by works, hows it work for you?

Peace In Christ my Friends
Mark

No, its not a by-product of faith. We need works because who is in heaven? Saints are in heaven. What are saints according to Catholics? Holy and perfected men and women. We must be perfect and holy to enter heaven. Not covered up dung. So with that said works through the merits of Christ transform the fallen man into what Christ redeemed us to be. Through works in grace- we become what Christ redeemed us to be, HOLY men and women of God. One can not dwell in heaven if you are not a holy person who loves God perfectly. Nothing unclean shall enter.

Benedicta00 · Nov 21, 2004

The Lord's Envoy said:
Nope.

What Kind of Works does a Catholic do?

Acts of love. Sacrifices we offer to God, denying oneself pleasures of this world, dying to all the self holds worth while. Seeing the face of God in our neighbor. He who does the least to my brethren does it to me.

Works does not save it of itself, grace saves, Jesus Christ dying on the cross is what saves any of us but we must receive what has been given and we can not receive this grace if we have hearts of stone never growing in a perfect love of God, thus works are very necessary. Christ did the work to have us forgiven but we must work that out and allow God to transform our souls from fallen sinful man to Christ's perfect image.

Benedicta00 · Nov 21, 2004

The Lord's Envoy said:
So works are more important than faith, in the grand scheme of things? (i have more questions ). Do these works earn anyone something?

No, they are not more important but essential in growing in the love of God. And they are not a by product either- that would be false to say.

Let me put it this way. I do the good works required because I have faith in God- I would not be doing them for any other reason. I have faith that Jesus died for my personal sins but he died to not only foirgive me but heal me of the wounds of original sin which are lust, greed etc. so I can dwell in a heaven where there is no stain of original sin.

You have to ask yourself, if you just accepted that Christ died to save you from hell and to forgive your sins but you never changed or tried to over come the vices of sin, what will happen when you die and go to enter heaven? Remember, nothing unclean shall enter.

You see? We need good works because with grace, they transform the fallen man. No to earn us a way in, for Jesus earned us a way in but we have to be clean to enter the gates that grace has opened up for us.

FullyMT · Nov 21, 2004

What Kind of Works does a Catholic do?

Matthew 25: 35-36
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' These, along with burying the dead, are the corporeal (meaning they have to do with the care of the human body) works of mercy.
There's also a set of spiritual works of mercy that I can't seem to remember.
To sum it up, as Shelb5 said, LOVE.

aReformedPatriot · Nov 21, 2004

Shelb5 said:
No, they are not more important but essential in growing in the love of God. And they are not a by product either- that would be false to say.

Let me put it this way. I do the good works required because I have faith in God- I would not be doing them for any other reason. I have faith that Jesus died for my personal sins but he died to not only foirgive me but heal me of the wounds of original sin which are lust, greed etc. so I can dwell in a heaven where there is no stain of original sin.

You have to ask yourself, if you just accepted that Christ died to save you from hell and to forgive your sins but you never changed or tried to over come the vices of sin, what will happen when you die and go to enter heaven? Remember, nothing unclean shall enter.

You see? We need good works because with grace, they transform the fallen man. No to earn us a way in, for Jesus earned us a way in but we have to be clean to enter the gates that grace has opened up for us.

Ok, now I am hearing conflicted things from a few different catholics. So i dunno what to believe now lol.

I agree nothing unclean enters the Kingdom Gates, and thank God for His Grace. All in here no doubt know Eph 2:8-9. For by Grace you have been saved through faith...not by works. Continue on a few verses more then you hear about works God has prepared for you.

This is my view. God does the saving because of his grace, through our faith, and that everything we try and do for God, or our ourselves in that case is moot. Now that one is saved by grace through faith we can now produce the fruits of that faith, IE works.

But in anycase, now that I know we're definitly not on the same page, that brings me back to my first sentence:

"Ok, now I am hearing conflicted things from a few different catholics. So i dunno what to believe now lol. "

I went to my bookshelf and dusted off my Catechism. Now one of ya'll who knows it open up thiers and point me to the official position and let us have a dandy, awesomely friendly study so that I (and we) may understand the churches position... Please

Aaron-Aggie · Nov 21, 2004

YOu want your child to take a bath and cleanse themselfs.
You provide the Water and the soap and the light in the bathroom and the bathroom it self.
Do you your child to simply belive the water and soap will cleanse themselfs or do you want them to both belive and actrualy take the bath?
And when they do take that bath is it themself that is cleaning them or is it the water and soap?

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