Question(s) for Arminian Baptists

[JM]

I've read some of these before and would like to know what the Arminian Baptists believe the answers to be. What is an Arminian? The five points are: 1) free will/human ability to choose to be saved 2) conditional election, being determined by or conditioned upon what man would do 3) general atonement, Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved 4) Holy Spirit can be resisted and can only draw to Christ those who allow Him 5) Falling from Grace.

I ask all those Arminians who believe in 4 or 5 of the points give it a try.

If all sinners possess will and power to come to Christ, why did Christ say (John 6:44), "No man can come unto Me except the Father which hath sent Me draw him?"

The free agents that Peter mentioned in 2 Peter 2:12, why were made to be taken and destroyed why did they perish?

Were those free agents who were before of old ordained to this condemnation? (Jude 1:4.)

Is any one free that is a servant? Are not all men the servants of sin until they are made free by the Son? (John 8:34-36.)

If God only wills to save those that are willing to be saved, is not God's will dependent upon man's will?

Does God work all things after the counsel of His own will (Ephe- 1:1 1), or does He work some things after the will of the sinner?

 

[bleechers]

If God only wills to save those that are willing to be saved, is not God's will dependent upon man's will?

Does God work all things after the counsel of His own will (Ephe- 1:1 1), or does He work some things after the will of the sinner?

Etc...

You make a false choice. The overwhelming witness of scripture is the necessity of one to "believe". By trying to tag anyone who does not adhere to the 5 points of Calvinism as an "Arminian" is a false conclusion.

Your questions are simplistic and leave no room for the many positions between the extremes (like Darby's position for example which rejected both Calvinism and Arminianism with vehemence).

If you believe that all things are in absolute accordance with the will of God (despite the scriptures clearly stating that they are not) then all of those who accept Arminianism do so by the will of God. You make the whole argument moot.

"What must we do to do the will of God?"

"Whatever you want! It's all the will of God!"

My Bible reads differently.

You make Mormonism the will of God, Hinduism the will of God, and every other religion and crime the will of God.

"Lord, what would thou have me to do?"

"Doesn't matter. It's all the will of God!"

Sanctification becomes meaningless. The Bema Seat becomes meaningless. Heaven becomes meaningless. Grace becomes meaningless. Sin becomes meaningless. The scores of warnings in the NT become meaningless.

etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc...

 

[JM]

Thanks but you didn't answer the questions.

Darby himself was the winner of the Geneva Award for defending Calvinism!

Maybe you could explain Darby's views a little better, I'd love to learn?

I don't like to use labels either, but since I was asking Arminians or those who are mostly Arminian I didn't see a problem with the title. Besides, I'm sure most if not all won't hesitate to call me a calvinist!

SP
PS: I started a thread in the Reformed Forum, maybe you'd like to post your questions in there? I'm sure we have answers...

 

[BT]

Ack! You made it so that I can't answer! Ack!

 

[bleechers]

Darby himself was the winner of the Geneva Award for defending Calvinism

No, he defended sovereignty for the Calvinists against pure Wesleyan Arminianism. This is the format in which he participated. I defended the gospel against Gerry Matatics for the Assemblies of God in New Zealand... that means I agree on the gospel, it does not make me an AoGer.

"Covenant theology at the utmost, is forgiveness of sins and divine favor enjoyed; and all that concerns their new position in the Lord Jesus Christ is ignored, or alas! guarded against as dangerous. Men are placed under the New Covenant which does not go beyond remission of sins and the law written on the heart. But being new creations in the Lord Jesus, and knowing it by the Holy Spirit, and what it involves now, has all but dropped out of their creeds." -- J.N. Darby

This is what I meant by stating that your questions allow for no middle ground. They are a trap.

For those of you who do not find comfort in either Calvinism or Arminianism, there is a place you can go:

http://www.foolforhim.com/articles/Mackintosh-C-/calvinismandarminianism.doc

You can have your thread back... I just didn't want people to feel like it's Calvinism or Arminianism or nothing.

 

[TwinCrier]

If all sinners possess will and power to come to Christ, why did Christ say (John 6:44), "No man can come unto Me except the Father which hath sent Me draw him?"

THIS VERSE ISN'T SPEAKING OF SALVATION BUT OF DESCIPLESHIP. Since Jesus was not yet dead, resurrected and glorified, people could not come to Him for salvation.

The free agents that Peter mentioned in 2 Peter 2:12, why were made to be taken and destroyed why did they perish?

Were those free agents who were before of old ordained to this condemnation? (Jude 1:4.)

These "shall utterly perish in their own corruption" THEIR OWN CORRUPTION. They chose to "walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government." How does this prove Calvinisn? Seems to prove free will.

Is any one free that is a servant? Are not all men the servants of sin until they are made free by the Son? (John 8:34-36.)

No they are made servant to the higher master.
Romans 1:1
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
1 Corinthians 7:22
For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
2 Corinthians 4:5
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
Galatians 1:10
For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
Ephesians 6:6
Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
Philippians 1:1
Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
Colossians 1:7
As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ;
Colossians 4:12
Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ,
Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
James 1:1
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ,
Jude 1:1
Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ,

The Lord ELECTS salvation for all who come to Him in Christ's name. The very word elect denotes a method of choice. We do not force people to run for office, nor are they born into it like a monarchy. We believe, He saves.

If God only wills to save those that are willing to be saved, is not God's will dependent upon man's will?
Does God work all things after the counsel of His own will (Ephe- 1:1 1), or does He work some things after the will of the sinner?

No, it is God's will for us to have free will. God has certainly worked through the sinner. He had often turned what Satan through men meant for evil and turned it for good.
Genesis 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.