Question on the Holy Trinity

[Ryuuko9]

Hello everyone,

I was reading Mark 13 today, and came across the following (verses 32-35):

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Be on guard! Be alert! You do no know that time will come. It's like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with his assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch."

What puzzled me is the first sentence. If God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one, and one essence, doesn't it mean that Jesus (the Son) would know when the time will come? Shouldn't He know God's will since He and God are really the same?

Your comments would be much appreciated. Thanks!

 

[KennySe]

What puzzled me is the first sentence. If God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one, and one essence, doesn't it mean that Jesus (the Son) would know when the time will come? Shouldn't He know God's will since He and God are really the same?

Your comments would be much appreciated. Thanks!

Hi, R. Welcome to OBOB.

You're asking one of the tough questions. We humans can never fully understand the entirety of the Blessed Trinity. Our minds are too small.

The Father is God. The Son is God. The Spirit is God.
Not that there are three gods. There is One Lord God.

And, yes, God knows everything.

So, how can Jesus not know something?

I don't know.

How can I explain how God existed before there was existence?
How can I explain that forever continues when the universe ends?

 

[Ryuuko9]

Thank you Kenny for your post. I understand that God is far beyond our conceptualization of Him, but Jesus could've said, "I know what's going to happen, but the time's not right for me to tell you", or something similar... :/

 

[marciadietrich]

Jesus in his humanity would not always know everything ... he is cosubstantial to God in his divinity and cosubstantial to us in his humanity.



Catechism

472 This human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, "increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man",101 and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience.102 This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking "the form of a slave".103

473 But at the same time, this truly human knowledge of God's Son expressed the divine life of his person.104 "The human nature of God's Son, not by itself but by its union with the Word, knew and showed forth in itself everything that pertains to God."105 Such is first of all the case with the intimate and immediate knowledge that the Son of God made man has of his Father.106 The Son in his human knowledge also showed the divine penetration he had into the secret thoughts of human hearts.107 474 By its union to the divine wisdom in the person of the Word incarnate, Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal plans he had come to reveal.108 What he admitted to not knowing in this area, he elsewhere declared himself not sent to reveal.109

 

[Atomagenesis]

Jesus in his humanity would not always know everything ... he is cosubstantial to God in his divinity and cosubstantial to us in his humanity.

Ah... truth..., the Holy Spirit works wonderfully through the church to answer questions doesn't he? Gotta love the Catechism.

 

[Rising_Suns]

good day to you and peace be with you,

Yes, Jesus is God; He was the Word made flesh. But God came down to us and took the form of man and thus took on Himself the limits of man as well, including temptation, fear, etc. and this includes not knowing "the day or the hour" as the Bible says. Jesus had to be subjected to the same temptations and weakness that all humans face, in order that He may set the example for us. This is in the same way why Jesus prayed to the Father.


May the peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you always.

 

[Ryuuko9]

But God came down to us and took the form of man and thus took on Himself the limits of man as well, including temptation, fear, etc. and this includes not knowing "the day or the hour" as the Bible says.

Thank you for your post, Rising Suns. I understand what you're saying, but if Jesus was truly subjected to the limits of man, then how can we explain the miracles that surrounded Him? His miracles clearly surpassed those of man.

Thank you again, and may God's peace be with you always.

 

[Rising_Suns]

Thank you for your post, Rising Suns. I understand what you're saying, but if Jesus was truly subjected to the limits of man, then how can we explain the miracles that surrounded Him? His miracles clearly surpassed those of man.

Thank you again, and may God's peace be with you always.

dear brother,

the simplest way that I look at it is that He is both 100% man and 100% God, together united into one. not two sepatarate entities, but one. He is God made flesh; so yes, He was limited in some ways, only in that He is in the flesh (He had to be subjected to everything we are for His sacrifice to mean something), but He is still God, which is how He could perform the miracles He could.

Hope this helps a little.


Praying for humility,
-Davide

 

[opus_dei]

blessings-

i'm not sure that i'm able to answer this in a better way than rising_suns did....however....

Jesus is not half God and half man...He is fully God and fully man. Jesus is the Word who was God and was with God and was made flesh. Jesus was not merely man that had God with him, nor did he merely manifest God. His divine nature was not changed as He is God, the second person of the Trinity.

the beauty of the hypostatic union is that the separate natures (by definition) act as the same person, Jesus.

the crux of the non-argument is stating that Jesus is human and also divine, yet they are mutually exclusive traits. Jesus, while displaying traits of both really only has one TRUE nature, to wit: He is God. to deny that Jesus is God made flesh and indivisble would be to deny the True fact that there is but one God.

Granted, Jesus himself never actually said the direct words I am God. however, he did mention that "I and the Father are One." Indeed, the idea that God died on the Cross as a suffering diety is, on balance, hard to accept without faith.

the crib sheet basically states that what is born of a perfect thing (God) must be likewise perfect and equal to the perfect and is thus God himself.

this of course, does not deny his humanity at the expense of his diety. Jesus' favorite manner in which to refer to Himself was the "Son of Man" which can be seen as an expression in humility and an expression of how God was willing to lower himself to mankinds' level and be born of a Virgin.

returning to John again, Jesus is asked that if He is the Christ, to tell them plainly. as He said: i did tell you, but you did not believe. Christ twice stated that he was the "I AM."

Christ, in His humility, was operating within human bounds while he delivered His ministry on earth. the glorification of his resurrection merely hints to the fact that he was not considered omniscient while human. indeed, Jesus always functions within His moral attributes (justice, mercy, love, goodness) but often does not often display His amoral attributes (omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, infinity, etc).

the one consciousness of the Christ does not deny His diety even though He generally displays his "human" traits. the mere fact that He has impeccability to sin speaks volumes as to His divine nature, especially since it means a lot more that He simply cannot sin.

the scriptural evidence of Him relating to us, and we to him is by grand design....as man He represents us to God and as God he represents the Father to us. As God stated in Genesis, God commands us to be like Him. yet only in the moral attributes, not in the otherworldly, as that is what led us to our Fall.

i hope i made some bit of sense as it is horribly late.

peace-
o.d.

 

[Markh]

I was told that Jesus "limited himself" from full Godly knowledge while on earth. He didn't allow himself to know certain things he could.

 

[Polycarp1]

It's orthodox Catholic theology that Jesus "emptied Himself" of much of the divine omniscience and omnipotence to become a human being -- and the technical term for this is the kenosis, which is Greek for "emptying." I mention this the way I do because there are aspects to so-called "kenosis theology" taught by some speculative theologists that are not accurate Catholic doctrine.
But there is a great line from one of the Fathers that speaks to this: "He became as we are in order that we might become as He is."

Paul's exhortation to humility in Philippians 2 is probably the best Scriptural explanation of the kenosis:

[bible]Philippians 2:1-11[/bible]

 

[Ryuuko9]

dear brother,

the simplest way that I look at it is that He is both 100% man and 100% God, together united into one. not two sepatarate entities, but one. He is God made flesh; so yes, He was limited in some ways, only in that He is in the flesh (He had to be subjected to everything we are for His sacrifice to mean something), but He is still God, which is how He could perform the miracles He could.

Dear RisingSuns,

Thank you for your post. What I don't understand is that Jesus says "God and I are One", and then says that He doesn't even know what God's will really is. It's a paradox to me, and I question the fact that He could've been 100% man and 100% God, since if He truly was 100% God, He would be omnipotent and omniscient, as God is. Reasoning then brings me to the thought that perhaps Jesus denied his divinity to be fully aware of what being human really is all about. This is also what the general consensus on this thread is at this point--an "emptying". But to be fully aware means to fully immerse yourself into something. You can't partially empty yourself, can you? If you can, then what's the point? This would be like going on a retreat for two weeks, and bringing your laptop there to check your e-mail and forwarding all your business calls there too.

Jesus obviously had divine attributes to be able to calm the waters, feed 5000 people with hardly any food, resurrect the dead, and so on. So was Jesus fully immersed into the experience as a human being?

 

[Polycarp1]

It's a paradox to me, and I question the fact that He could've been 100% man and 100% God, since if He truly was 100% God, He would be omnipotent and omniscient, as God is.

Trinitarian Christianity has held for over 1600 years that this is the case, though:

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance
(homoousios) with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and
for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer (Theotokos); one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the
union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest
times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the Fathers has handed down to us.

Council of Chalcedon, 451 A.D., Act V

This definition is subscribed to by the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox, and most Protestant denominations.

Reasoning then brings me to the thought that perhaps Jesus denied his divinity to be fully aware of what being human really is all about. This is also what the general consensus on this thread is at this point--an "emptying". But to be fully aware means to fully immerse yourself into something. You can't partially empty yourself, can you? If you can, then what's the point? This would be like going on a retreat for two weeks, and bringing your laptop there to check your e-mail and forwarding all your business calls there too.

Jesus obviously had divine attributes to be able to calm the waters, feed 5000 people with hardly any food, resurrect the dead, and so on. So was Jesus fully immersed into the experience as a human being?

This is a good point. My own sense, for which I have no authority beyond feeling it to be right, is that He "became in all ways as we are" -- i.e., totally human, without a sense of His own Godhead -- in order to experience, as a human, what being human is like, and in order that He might complete the Atonement -- which according to subtle theologians to be effective required that it be done by God and that it be done by man. But in this emptying He had access, through the Holy Spirit, to the limitless knowledge, wisdom, and power of God, at need, so that He could teach and perform miracles in His divine capacity. Therefore He acts as a human being in most circumstances, but teaches with the authority of God the Son, and becomes aware of those things which He ought to know to carry out His ministry -- and becomes capable of doing those miraculous things which serve as "signs" (John's word) of His real identity.

 

[marciadietrich]

Dear RisingSuns,

Thank you for your post. What I don't understand is that Jesus says "God and I are One", and then says that He doesn't even know what God's will really is. It's a paradox to me, and I question the fact that He could've been 100% man and 100% God, since if He truly was 100% God, He would be omnipotent and omniscient, as God is. Reasoning then brings me to the thought that perhaps Jesus denied his divinity to be fully aware of what being human really is all about. This is also what the general consensus on this thread is at this point--an "emptying". But to be fully aware means to fully immerse yourself into something. You can't partially empty yourself, can you? If you can, then what's the point? This would be like going on a retreat for two weeks, and bringing your laptop there to check your e-mail and forwarding all your business calls there too.

Jesus obviously had divine attributes to be able to calm the waters, feed 5000 people with hardly any food, resurrect the dead, and so on. So was Jesus fully immersed into the experience as a human being?

Hello,

Christ has two wills, thus he could have a will equal to and in union with God and one seperate from God:



Christ's human will 475 Similarly, at the sixth ecumenical council, Constantinople III in 681, the Church confessed that Christ possesses two wills and two natural operations, divine and human. They are not opposed to each other, but cooperate in such a way that the Word made flesh willed humanly in obedience to his Father all that he had decided divinely with the Father and the Holy Spirit for our salvation.110 Christ's human will "does not resist or oppose but rather submits to his divine and almighty will."111

Christianity is full of paradoxes. Christ had two wills, one was the divine will that was in union with the will of God, and one a human will in submission to God. More paradoxes. We are both Christ's Body and his Bride, and those are more than just nice little illustrations - they are realities or aspects of being Christian and the relationship of Christians to each other and to God. We are to be one as Jesus and God the Father are one. We're to have one mind, one faith. Yet we're all different indivudual people pulling in various directions. When we come together in the one faith, and partake in the Eucharist (the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord) we become one in a real way.


In marriage we become one flesh, and out of union new life comes. This is a mirror of the Trinity. That in God there are 3 persons, that in love of two a third is generated. Jesus as the second person of the Trinity (another paradox, one God, three persons) has always existed, is omniscient and omnipotent, is eternal with no beginning or end. The Godhead took up into itself humanity, as one divine person in Jesus - a person with a beginning in time and space. Eternal God who could not die, did die on the Cross for our sins. These are mysteries - meaning revelation from God that can be difficult to understand. Marriage a reflection of Christ's relationship to the church, a "mystery," a revelation, a truth.

Ephesians 5:

29. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30. For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

Mysteries are difficult to understand, there are some points we may not understand in this life. But the answers to your questions, so far at least, are easily found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. These things will not be found explicitly in scripture alone, but are found in the teachings of the Church.

Marcia

 

[Polycarp1]

That was a nice post, Marcia. I particularly like the idea that when Christ placed his human will in subjection to God's will, He was modeling, perfectly, what we are called to do in bringing our own wills into subjection to God's will for us.

However, my perverse sense of humor came up with a silly line based on another of your analogies, and I hope that you will be amused and not offended by my sharing it:

In marriage we become one flesh, and out of union new life comes. This is a mirror of the Trinity. That in God there are 3 persons, that in love of two a third is generated.

"Please explain the Augustinian teaching of the spiration of the Holy Spirit from Father and Son."
"Well, son, it's like this: When two Persons of the Holy Trinity love each other very much...."

 

[KennySe]

However, my perverse sense of humor came up with a silly line based on another of your analogies, and I hope that you will be amused and not offended by my sharing it:

"Please explain the Augustinian teaching of the spiration of the Holy Spirit from Father and Son."
"Well, son, it's like this: When two Persons of the Holy Trinity love each other very much...."

LOL! Good one, P!

It reminds me of something Scott Hahn said, that God is a Family. That as the Father loves the Son and the Son loves the Father, the Love they share is the Spirit.

 

[marciadietrich]

That was a nice post, Marcia. I particularly like the idea that when Christ placed his human will in subjection to God's will, He was modeling, perfectly, what we are called to do in bringing our own wills into subjection to God's will for us.

However, my perverse sense of humor came up with a silly line based on another of your analogies, and I hope that you will be amused and not offended by my sharing it:


"Please explain the Augustinian teaching of the spiration of the Holy Spirit from Father and Son."
"Well, son, it's like this: When two Persons of the Holy Trinity love each other very much...."

lol :lol: ... I'm not offended. I enjoy your posts here, Poly ... also how you bold names so no confusion on who you are addressing.

God bless you ...
Marcia