Question on predestination

[raynman]

I have not done a study on this subject and will ask the forum.

Is it possible for the lord to take away problems (i.e drug addiction sexual immorality, drinking, smoking) without the help of the persons desire to quit, or the person even aknowledging the existince of God?

My question is, If God has a plan for your life in the ministry or a plan for your life in his work in some manner. Is it possible that you have no choice? but to submit to God ultimately!

 

[ablikespaintball]

The answer to ur first question is, NO. Because they are walking in sin, adn it says in the bible that God gives us free choice to do what we want whether it be sin or not.

Second question. NO again. God gives us free will. Orcourse he has a plan for everyones life. But sometimes people don't follow that plan. Usually God will remind you of the path that your taking and that it is not a good one. That was my opinion on the subject.

God Bless,
AB

 

[raynman]

God knows your free will decision.

If he sees powerful works for him in your future,

You don't think he will help you along, saved or unsaved?

 

[ablikespaintball]

God knows your free will decision.

If he sees powerful works for him in your future,

You don't think he will help you along, saved or unsaved?

If you are talking about, if ur sick now, or walking in sin, and God sees that later on u are going to do good works for him. Then my answer is no, God is not going to heal you from walking in sin, no way, never.

Explain on what ur talking about. like give an example.

God Bless,
AB

 

[victoryword]

The REFORMED doctrine of predestination is based upon a unilateral sovereignty of God doctrine. This teaching is opposed to "free will" or "free moral agency" and it teaches that God has FOREORDAINED all events. It teaches that God has decided from all eternity past who would be saved, sick, bound, healthy, etc. All of this for His glory. R. C. Sproul emphasizes tells us that even SIN was foreordained by God:

Then, as now, I realized that evil was a problem for the sovereignty of God. Did evil come into the world against God’s sovereign will? If so, then he is not absolutely sovereign. If not, then we must conclude that in some sense even evil is foreordained by God

Many in the Reformed camp confuse "foreknowledge" with "foreordination". They make foreknowledge synonymous with predestination. The Arminian position looks at it a little differently. Though I do not consider myself Arminian, I lean closer to this position than the Reformed view. R. A. Torrey represents the Arminian position by this statement: Foreknowledge no more determines a man’s actions than afterknowledge. Knowledge is determined by the fact, not the fact by the knowledge...

Basically, what Torrey is saying (from the classic Arminian view) is that even though God knows every decision that man will make, He does not coerce these decisions. They are not foreordained. God simply knows what man will do because of His foreknowledge of all events. Yet, it is still man that must make these choices.

Open Theism is another view that teaches that God does not have exhaustive foreknowledge of future events and that God does not have exhaustive knowledge of each decision man will make. That's for another debate though.

In my understanding of Scripture, God does not interfere with man's freedom of choice. God's common question to man is found in John 5:6:

When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time [in that case], he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?

And in Jeremiah 13:27

I have seen thine adulteries, and thy neighings, the lewdness of thy whoredom, [and] thine abominations on the hills in the fields. Woe unto thee, O Jerusalem! wilt thou not be made clean? when [shall it] once [be]?

I also believe that God gives, not according to a predestined plan that is made apart from the receiver's free will, but as the person seeks and receives by faith (see Matthew 15:28)

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Many people are confused by these doctrines.
I do not see Him forcing anyone to do anything.
But He does have some very powerful methods of guiding you in the correct path.

 

[RevKidd]

If I may chime in a little, I will give somewhat of an explanation on how I view god's existence personally. What I am about to say is not neccessarily a doctrinal view, but more or less a personal insight as to how I view God and His Sovreignty.

Let start with Peter. He said that a thousand years to us is as a day to God and vice versa. Now, we can either interpret that literally or figuratively. I tend to believe that Peter was stating that God is not bound by the physic of time and matter, thus not bound by "time" as we know it. That God's omniscience enables him to move in and out of time as he pleases. Or in other words, God does not exist in time.

Now let's move on. Let's say that we can for this one instance place a starting point that we will call "A" in God's timeline. Now Let's hypothetically assume that we are able to start at "A" and move 1000 years in God''s time to point "B".

Here is a quick example

1000 Years God's Time
A----------------------------------------------------------------------B
0 years 1000 Years

Now that we have this 1000 year time frame, find the little DOT that I have placed on the time line that show's the existance of the earth.

Did you find it yet?

Still looking?

Your not going to find it? Why is that? Because in God's grand plan for Eternity the time of the existance of earth IMO is not even measurable. What I am trying to say is this. God gives the majority of those in this life about 70 years, some more and painfully some less. But in those tiny bit's of time we are giving one simple choice to make, accept Christ, or don't.

We have to be thankful and humble that a eternally existing God has granted us the ability and propitation for our sins and to one day gain perfection with him in eternity.

So what does this have to do with the question. My point is this. That we can worry and fret about our choices we make here on earth. We can mourn of desease and death. We can try and fight the enemy (which I believe we should), however all decisions other than the one we make for Christ will never change God's eternal plan for those who love him. Sure we have free will here on earth but it doesn't matter if one person get's saved or if the whole world does. God's plan will not change.

 

[victoryword]

I never could agree with theologians about that "God outside of time" stuff, or what is called by some the "eternal now". When I read the Bible it appears to me that God experiences history and sequences of events just like the rest of us.

If anything else 2 Pet. 3:8, 9 seems to support a God who experiences "time" or rather has sequential experiences. In an excellent article by Bo Bolding (forund here), he gives an exposition of the above passage that better expresses how I read it:

II Peter 3:8 "But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."
This verse is thought by some to teach timelessness because a thousand years is just like one day to God. How could a thousand years seem like one day? It must be the case that duration and succession are removed so that the dragging of time is not felt. In addition, some might argue that the reason a day seems like a thousand years is because in the eternal there is no difference between a thousand years and one day. They all coexist into a single present existence. But is this a necessary or valid interpretation of the text?
This verse is intended to be an argument against mockers who in verse 3 & 4 will come (and probably are already present) saying, "Where is the promise of His coming," and also as a source of hope for Christians who look forward to His return. Peter offers reason for the delay of the Parousia, yet maintains an expectation for its coming. Bauckham says, "It was characteristic of the Jewish and Christian apocalyptic to hold in tension the imminent expectation and an acknowledgement of eschatalogical delay."
Peter continues in verse 9, "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." His use of "a thousand years as one day" is meant to stress the patience of the Lord. Man's expectations are short and limited to his own lifespan, but God has endured all of human history. In light of this, a thousand years is short from His perspective. He is not influenced by the passing of time, rather His patience is beautifully extended in order that more may come to repentance.
Though not a quote, this verse borrows the figure of "a thousand years as one day" from Psalms 90:4. "For a thousand years in Thy sight are like yesterday when it passes by, or as a watch in the night." The same idea is present here concerning God's perspective of time. In the context, he contrasts the everlastingness of God with the age of the earth and the length of man's life. A thousand years is nothing in view of eternity (unending time). The inclusion of "when it passes by" recognizes the process of time or succession. Rather than teaching timelessness, these passages very strongly support endless time.

I will agree that God is not bound by time. He is ETERNAL. Unlike us, He does not age. He has no beginning or end as we do. However, I do NOT see God as one who travels back and fourth through time like one sees in a science fiction movie. Nor do I see anything in the Bible that supports a position that God experiences all of time in one moment.

I see God experiencing time and history along with His creation.

 

[ablikespaintball]

If I may chime in a little, I will give somewhat of an explanation on how I view god's existence personally. What I am about to say is not neccessarily a doctrinal view, but more or less a personal insight as to how I view God and His Sovreignty.

Let start with Peter. He said that a thousand years to us is as a day to God and vice versa. Now, we can either interpret that literally or figuratively. I tend to believe that Peter was stating that God is not bound by the physic of time and matter, thus not bound by "time" as we know it. That God's omniscience enables him to move in and out of time as he pleases. Or in other words, God does not exist in time.

Now let's move on. Let's say that we can for this one instance place a starting point that we will call "A" in God's timeline. Now Let's hypothetically assume that we are able to start at "A" and move 1000 years in God''s time to point "B".

Here is a quick example

1000 Years God's Time
A----------------------------------------------------------------------B
0 years 1000 Years

Now that we have this 1000 year time frame, find the little DOT that I have placed on the time line that show's the existance of the earth.

Did you find it yet?

Still looking?

Your not going to find it? Why is that? Because in God's grand plan for Eternity the time of the existance of earth IMO is not even measurable. What I am trying to say is this. God gives the majority of those in this life about 70 years, some more and painfully some less. But in those tiny bit's of time we are giving one simple choice to make, accept Christ, or don't.

We have to be thankful and humble that a eternally existing God has granted us the ability and propitation for our sins and to one day gain perfection with him in eternity.

So what does this have to do with the question. My point is this. That we can worry and fret about our choices we make here on earth. We can mourn of desease and death. We can try and fight the enemy (which I believe we should), however all decisions other than the one we make for Christ will never change God's eternal plan for those who love him. Sure we have free will here on earth but it doesn't matter if one person get's saved or if the whole world does. God's plan will not change.

So i geuss ur a cavanist?
God has a plan for your life, he knows who is going to get saved, but it's not like we were BORN to be saved. If that were so, that we were born to be saved, then there would be no point in sharing the gospel with non-believers because they are GOING to get saved at some point? God will not and does not make us follow the plan that he has for us. Like didaskalos said.........he might have some powful ways of turning us away from what he has planned for us to do.

God Bless,
AB

 

[raynman]

I agree, that he has power enough to convince a person so much he would be a fool not to believe. and if he didn't, God wouldn't want a fool as a servant anyway.

 

[RevKidd]

So i geuss ur a calvanist?
God has a plan for your life, he knows who is going to get saved, but it's not like we were BORN to be saved. If that were so, that we were born to be saved, then there would be no point in sharing the gospel with non-believers because they are GOING to get saved at some point? God will not and does not make us follow the plan that he has for us. Like didaskalos said.........he might have some powful ways of turning us away from what he has planned for us to do.

God Bless,
AB

No I am not Calvinist and I figured someone would call me one. Think about this. God's plan for eternity outweighs all the things that happen on this earth. I think everyone will agree on that.

My great-grandmother lived to be 98 years old. She lived a long time. But that 98 years in God's time is just a vapor. God has granted us life on this earth. We live, we make decisions every day that effect us. I also believe that in those 70 years that we have (if we have that long) God gives us the opportunity to choose him or reject him (freewill). Do I want to see people saved, absolutely, do I try and bring people to Christ, absolutely. If I was a calvinist I wouldn't care really. You have to remember that God does not need us. An all knowing, all powerful, omnipresent God does not need you and I. But there is one attribute about God that brings him to us and us to him, and that is he LOVES us. He loves us so much that he sacrificed himself to be the atonement for our sinfull selves. God wishes that none should perish, but He knows, you and I know, that their will be those who will reject him and will forever be in torment away from the presence of God.

You can speak in tongues all you want. You can prophesy all you want. You dance, shout, sing, scream, snort, fall out of your seat all you want. You can think that your the biggest prayer warrior on the street, and that you have all gifts pouring out of you like a sive[sp?], but the only thing that matters is did you accept Christ and know him as your Lord and personal Savior. We look at the world with a natural finite perception, when our perception needs to be focused on the eternal.

I will agree that God is not bound by time. He is ETERNAL. Unlike us, He does not age. He has no beginning or end as we do. However, I do NOT see God as one who travels back and fourth through time like one sees in a science fiction movie. Nor do I see anything in the Bible that supports a position that God experiences all of time in one moment.
I see God experiencing time and history along with His creation

I agree with some of what you have said. And really, will we ever really know the answers. Not on this earth. But it is fun to talk about. So, let me ask you some questions if I may.


Do you think time was created by God, or do you think time is a result of creation?


Here's what I am getting at. And this is just from a simple man's thought. When something is built or created it has to have been created by that which is greater in someway. Example, when you walk along a beach and see a sand castle. The sand castle just didn't appear, it was made by an intelligent creator who is greater than the sand. Time is complex, and some of our greatest thinkers and scientist have proposed that travel through time is possible but we will never completely understand "Time". IMO I believe that God created all things and that he understand those things that are a result of his creation. I am not sure if time was created or is a result of creation. However God understands it.


Which leads me to this. If we believe that God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent than IMO we would have to assume that God is everywhere. From here on earth to the unreachable parts of the universe. That means that God who is the creator of light can move faster than light. Why, because he is already there. If our greatest minds can somewhat fathom how time travel is possible, I think our God is already there. Understand what I mean. God knows how all physics work because he is the creator. Because he is the creator he knows how to manipulate and move within his own creation. Am I making sense. If not just shoot me... not really but you know what I mean.

 

[ablikespaintball]

Ofcourse everything was made by God, i think we all agree on that?

That was a good question....about did God make time. I'll have to think about that one, lol.

 

[ablikespaintball]

Did u have a point? Or were you trying to prove that you weren't a calvanist? I didn't really ur point of saying all that, but o well. I must not get it then.

God Bless,
AB

 

[RevKidd]

Did u have a point? Or were you trying to prove that you weren't a calvanist? I didn't really ur point of saying all that, but o well. I must not get it then.

God Bless,
AB

Sorry if I went off on a tangent. I was trying to explain that the creation has to be understood by it's creator. And also the fact that if God is all powerful, all knowing, and everywhere that he would understand and know how to move in and out of our limited physics of "time".

Sorry if I confused you.

 

[ablikespaintball]

it's okay

 

[ANM29]

God is all knowing. I dont' think anything surprises him. ANYTHING. To me, that means he knows what will happen long before it does.