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Question on Justification

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Reformationist

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D0F, I'm not going to justify this with a response other than to say that you efforts here are misdirected. I don't think that babies are any worse than any other person. I think we are all inherently sinful and, by nature, children of wrath. I think babies are beautiful and a gift from God. You need not paint me to be some sadistic child hater.

I do not think that a baby is guilty before God by virtue of the sins they commit. I think they're guilty before God because the Bible says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. There is no provision made to exclude any of created humanity from this all inclusive statement because all of created humanity are the subject of that verse. Despite the problem I have with this emotionally I must acknowledge that all are sinful in the eyes of the Lord and thus all are in need of a Savior. If there is anyone who is born sinless then there are people that don't need a Savior and that is a direct violation of too much Scripture to ignore.

God bless
 
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orthedoxy

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Reformationist does all mean all in 1tim 2:6 "he gave himself a ransom for all.
why does all mean all only when you want it?
2thes3:10 "For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat"
how would you explain 2thes3:10 do we starve our kids because they can't work?

psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
this doesn't say the infants are sinful only in the niv which is wrong.
Lotar my child is holy because the bible says so.
Icor 7:14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

Are the only verses for infants being sinful rom 3:23 and psalm 51:5?

If you believe children are going to hell you should at least baptize them to wash away their original sin.
Matthew 19:13-14
Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them. Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
How could the kingdom of God belong to infants when they are born with the guilt of original sin?
 
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danceforjoy

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Since when are we owners of Christ's righteousness? We have become servants of it because of our love response to the Gospel, the sufferings of Christ in our behalf. (see Romans 6:18) Servants are not Masters!

Here is another phase of Justification to think about:
1.Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

For the one who truly seeks God through Christ Jesus, they are already sanctified and there is no judgment to confirm a persons worthiness, Investigative or other wise.

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Please tell me what you see wrong with my quoting because I built two errors into it
Rolf
 
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Reformationist

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orthedoxy said:
Reformationist does all mean all in 1tim 2:6 "he gave himself a ransom for all.
There are a number of different ways in which "all" can be interpreted in that verse. One of them is all people ever created. Another is men of every tribe and nation but not every tribe and nation as a whole.

why does all mean all only when you want it?
Wow. That's mature.

2thes3:10 "For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat"
how would you explain 2thes3:10 do we starve our kids because they can't work?
orthodoxy, since you seem to be so keen on arguing against my understandings of the contextual applications of these seemingly universal words, why don't you explain how you understand these words when you come accross them.

psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
this doesn't say the infants are sinful only in the niv which is wrong.
Hey, well, that works. I hereby label everything that disagrees with me...wrong. That will help you always be right, at least in your own mind.

Um...what is Icor 7:14

Are you asking me or Lotar?
 
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orthedoxy

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orthodoxy, since you seem to be so keen on arguing against my understandings of the contextual applications of these seemingly universal words, why don't you explain how you understand these words when you come accross them.
all i'm saying the all have sined in rom 3:23 doesn't include infants just like when the bible says "If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat" doesn't apply to infants.
 
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Lotar

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It says because of your faith they are holy. If you or your spouse had no faith, and did not baptized their child, they would be unclean. That is why this verse says, "Otherwise your children would be unclean."


Are the only verses for infants being sinful rom 3:23 and psalm 51:5?
psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
this doesn't say the infants are sinful only in the niv which is wrong.
The KJV:
Psalms 51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

The NAS:
Psalms 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.

Which version in your opinion is correct? They all say the same, that we are born sinful.

As for Romans, how could it mean anything different.

If you believe children are going to hell you should at least baptize them to wash away their original sin.
And we do, so what's your point?


[size=-1]Mark 10:15
"Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."
[/size]


[size=-1]Because it is through the faith of a child that we are saved.



[/size]
 
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Reformationist

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orthedoxy said:
all i'm saying the all have sined in rom 3:23 doesn't include infants just like when the bible says "If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat" doesn't apply to infants.
Okay. So, as I asked before, how do you determine the limitations of these "universal" words? Clearly you don't think that words like "all," and "world" always mean everyone yet you clearly do think they are all inclusive at other times. On top of all that, you castigate me when I seek to apply these "universal" words in a manner that you find offensive. So, in light of that, I'm curious how you determine when "all" means "every single person ever created" and when it means something else. The same goes for world. I'm not familiar with the beliefs of your faith but I would guess that you believe John 3:16 uses "world" in an all encompassing universal manner, right? If so, what is it that helps you define it that way? I'm sure you don't think "world" always means "every person ever created," right?

Also, you didn't answer my question. I asked what Icor 7:14 is. Did I just misread that verse reference?

God bless
 
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Reformationist

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Lotar said:
And we do, so what's your point?
Do Lutherans believe that water baptism atones for/removes the stain of original sin?

[size=-1]
Mark 10:15
"Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."
[/size]


[size=-1]Because it is through the faith of a child that we are saved.[/size]
Do you actually mean "it is through the faith of a child that we are saved" or are you just saying that saving faith is childlike in that it trusts implicitly?

God bless
 
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Lotar

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Reformationist said:
Do Lutherans believe that water baptism atones for/removes the stain of original sin?
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2611

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2608

Do you actually mean "it is through the faith of a child that we are saved" or are you just saying that saving faith is childlike in that it trusts implicitly?

God bless
Yes.
 
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orthedoxy

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Don
I believe all means every person. Although you can have exceptions for example Jesus is not included in the all of Rom 3:23, infants are not included because they can’t sin.
I also assume when the bible says to preach it doesn’t mean to preach to infants, when it says one needs to confess Jesus with their mouth it’s not talking to infants.
I do believe “all” means all and in the case of john 3:16 the world is everyone in the world. This is how everyone believes it, Unless they have formed their theology before reading the verse.
Believers no longer belong to the world so when the bible uses the word “world’ it sometimes refers to the non believers.

As to 1cor 7:14 it says the infant are holy how can they be holy when they inherited the guilt of Adam?
 
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Reformationist

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orthedoxy said:
Don
I believe all means every person.

So when you see "all" in the Bible it means "every person?" But, you do make exceptions, as you note here:

Although you can have exceptions for example Jesus is not included in the all of Rom 3:23, infants are not included because they can?t sin.

So, since Romans 3:23 doesn't say "all have sinned except infants" then it seems to me that you insert that piece of theology based on your presumptions. Romans 3:23 isn't saying that infants go around personally sinning. It says, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Notice the tense and consider Romans 5:12.

I also assume when the bible says to preach it doesn?t mean to preach to infants, when it says one needs to confess Jesus with their mouth it?s not talking to infants.

I agree completely. What does that have to do with anything? Confessing Jesus with our mouth isn't what saves us, nor is our being preached to. What's your point?

I do believe ?all? means all and in the case of john 3:16 the world is everyone in the world. This is how everyone believes it, Unless they have formed their theology before reading the verse.

Here's an idea othedoxy, how about you stop acting so arrogant and talk about this with me in a joint desire to gain knowledge about God? This ISN'T how everyone believes it. The majority of the reformed community, which is a large number of believers, does not see it that way. Try to cut out the condescension in your posts or stop posting in this forum.

Believers no longer belong to the world so when the bible uses the word ?world? it sometimes refers to the non believers.

Actually, the word "world" is used in many different ways in the Bible.

World

As to 1cor 7:14 it says the infant are holy how can they be holy when they inherited the guilt of Adam?

What??!!! That's not what that verse says at all.

1 Corinthians 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.

This is speaking of the character of a home in which at least one parent is a believer. In Old Testament language the whole family is regarded as being in covenant with God. Even the spouse who refuses to believe comes under the influence of God's work - much more so the children who are not old enough to profess their faith.

Additionally, the verse clearly says that the child would be unclean were it not for the presence of at least one believing parent.
 
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