Question on Jude

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, All

Kind of puzzled by this passage.

Jud 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

Jud 1:2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.


My question is what is "This condemnation" I see no condemnation in these verses.


Peace to u,

Bill

 

[JohnJones]

The word "this" must refer to what comes after rather than what comes before.

 

[chunkofcoal]

"Who were of old ordained to this condemnation"
He is speaking of the false prophets, false teachers, mockers.
The condemnation - "Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

 

[BBAS 64]

The word "this" must refer to what comes after rather than what comes before.

Good Day, John

It is a normal grammer when a "pronoun.. This" singular is used that the meaning is normally in the proceeding text I think we can agree. If "this" was to point to some thing that was to follow after the "pronoun" a conjuction would have to have used I see not conjuction used that stands alone to be referring to the preceeding " this condemnation":.

Unless I have missed it?

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Dmckay]

I am going to focus just on the portion of this passage your have questions about, that being verse 4 and the "condemnation" spoken of. The immediate context is primarily speaking of his writing to address the problem developed in verse 4.

Ungodly men had "secretly slipped in" (Greek–pareisedysan, "crept in unawares) among the believers. Paul uses a related word pareisaktos of Judaizers who had infiltrated Christian congregations to spy on their freedom in Jesus (Galatians 2:4). Concerning these men, the Greek says,"hoi palai progegrammenoi eis touto to krima, which the KJV translates as "who were before of old ordained to this condemnation," while the NIV has, "men whose condemnation was written about long ago." The word prographo means "write before," either in the same document or in a previous one. The reference could be to God's writing down from eternity the destiny (i.e. the reprobation or punishment) of the wicked. More than likely it refers to previously written predictions about the doom of the apostates.

Afer speaking about their destiny, Jude describes them as "impious" or "ungodly" a term used for notorious sinners. It is made more specific by two specific charges that follow. First, they "change the grace of our God into a license for immorality." Evidently their understanding of grace and the forgiveness of sins led them to feel free to indulge in all forms of sexual depravity. Second, they "deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." Exactly how the deny Jesus, Jude does not say. Certainly they denied him by their immoral living that ran counter to Jesus' commands. They may also have denied Him in their teaching of a Christology that denied either His full humanity or His full deity.

 

[BBAS 64]

"Who were of old ordained to this condemnation"
He is speaking of the false prophets, false teachers, mockers.
The condemnation - "Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

Good Day, Chunk of coal

So to understand the meaning of "this condemnation" we must skip down to verse 14. Interesting I will have to read the text with that idea in mind and see if there is Grammer to support such connection.

Condemnation;

krima

Thayer Definition:

1) a decree, judgments

2) judgment

2a) condemnation of wrong, the decision (whether severe or mild) which one passes on the faults of others

2b) in a forensic sense

2b1) the sentence of a judge

2b2) the punishment with which one is sentenced

2b3) condemnatory sentence, penal judgment, sentence

3) a matter to be judicially decided, a lawsuit, a case in court

Part of Speech: noun neuter

The pronoun "this" is in the neuter also,as well as singular

Thanks for your imput

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[JohnJones]

Good Day, John

It is a normal grammer when a "pronoun.. This" singular is used that the meaning is normally in the proceeding text I think we can agree. If "this" was to point to some thing that was to follow after the "pronoun" a conjuction would have to have used I see not conjuction used that stands alone to be referring to the preceeding " this condemnation":.

Unless I have missed it?

Peace to u,

Bill

I'm not sure how you derived such a rule as that, but these passages might help, since in all of them "this" refers to what comes afterwards.

1 John 4:8-9 "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. {9} In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him."

1 John 3:11 "For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another."

Gal 5:14 "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

1 Cor 11:17 "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse."

Rom 13:9 "For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

For this reason I think "this condemnation" refers to the condemnation mentioned verse 5 and on.

 

[andy153]

Good Day, All

Kind of puzzled by this passage.

Jud 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

Jud 1:2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.


My question is what is "This condemnation" I see no condemnation in these verses.


Peace to u,

Bill

The condemnation was placed on these individuals when they accepted their ordination to spread lies and doubt regarding the Christ and his ministry.

with love and respect, andy153

 

[ClementofRome]

JohnJones, I would have to concur with BBAS64...

Your understanding of "this" is based on an English placement of the "this" by English translators/interpreters. Many, many places in the Greek text the, "in this" (en toutou), is ambiguous....or at least open to interpretation.

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, All

Had forgetten about this thread:

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


Condemnation, judgement, or decree are all with in the semantic range for NT usages.

The decree of God to which they were 'past tense' ordained. is the "crept in"

Peace to u,

Bill