Question for Reformationist

[JohnR7]

(Reformationist))

Do you really think reform within the system is possible? The Pilgrams came over with the attitude that they would seperate themselves from all unGodlyness & unGodly people. While the Puritans followed a few years later, with the idea you can reform the existing system and work from within. The Pilgrams and the Native American Indians worked together, the Puritans were against them from the beginning. Also, the Puritans were the ones who gave us the Salam witch trials, where the Pilgrams never put any witches on trial.

The Puritans did give us mandatory education, and even higher education, with their attitude to never waste time, and to always be productive. They went on in my opinion to form humanism. On the religious front, they joined together with the Pilgrams to form the Congressional Church, more commonly knows as the establishment.

Anyways, I was wondering, how do you reconcile the teaching of Jesus that we should seperate ourselves and come out from among them. With the attitude of the reformation that we can work within the existing system to reform it? Thanks, JohnR7

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by JohnR7
Do you really think reform within the system is possible?

I'll assume you're talking about the system of organized religion.  If it be God's Will, of course.  If it's not His Will, most definitely not.

The Pilgrams came over with the attitude that they would seperate themselves from all unGodlyness & unGodly people.

Well, Catholic monks (this is not an attack against the Catholic faith or the tenants of their beliefs) attempted the same thing.  They locked themselves up in a monestary to separate themselves from the ungodliness of the world, and therefore sin.  What they didn't realize was that the sin lives within us.  No matter where we go, whether we're alone or not, we will sin as long as we are in this fragile shell.

Anyways, I was wondering, how do you reconcile the teaching of Jesus that we should seperate ourselves and come out from among them. With the attitude of the reformation that we can work within the existing system to reform it? Thanks, JohnR7

This is a good question John.  I believe the most essential step in reformation is to understand that we are powerless to bring about anything lest it be God's Will.  "Working within the existing system to reform it" is only done by the majesty and sovereignty of He who controls all manner of men.  Our contribution to this is to be the light that, by example, exposes ungodliness (not judges, rather exposes) and shows the world the magnificence of our Father and encourages them to glorify Him.  Our obedience to God's Word is the means of separating, not physically but rather spiritually, ourselves from the heathen of the fallen world.  We should look at all things that we experience, whether we think them good or bad, as gifts from God because He is using every one of them to expose our weaknesses to us so that we may strive to be more obedient.  Thus, by our faith in God we are separated from the fallen mass just as if we had been plucked from their midsts.

God bless.

 

[JohnR7]

((No matter where we go, whether we're alone or not, we will sin as long as we are in this fragile shell.))

That sort of thinking just does not work. Jesus had the same body we have, when He walked the Earth, and yet He was without sin. He came to among other things, set an example for us to follow, so that in every way, we can become just as He was. If He could live free from sin, then so can we.

Hebrews 4:15  For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

If He was tempted in every way, just as we are, then He had a body, just like we have. Yet He was able to live without sin, and so can we. Either that or if He had some sort of advantage over us, then He could not fully have compassion for us.

Even a sinner can be justifed, if they just get on their face before God and admit their need for deliverance. But a sinner who thinks they can be justifed with God because they are not as much of a sinner as others is really little more than a hyprocrate.

Luke 18:10-14
    "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. [11] The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. [12] I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.' [13] And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' [14] I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."


It is time to go beyond reform, and the reformation. We need to actually become a new creation in Christ. We can not patch up the old, we need to put off the old and put on the new. Thanks, JohnR7

  


 

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by JohnR7
That sort of thinking just does not work.

Maybe not for you.  Works for me just fine because I know it's the truth.

Jesus had the same body we have, when He walked the Earth, and yet He was without sin.

It's not the body that makes us sin.  The important thing to remember is that though Jesus was fully human, He was also fully Divine.  He was never subject to an "old nature" that He must put off and therefore could, from the start, live His life remaining obedient to His Father.

If He could live free from sin, then so can we.

Again, this is a can vs. will issue that becomes moot when looking at the reality of the situation.  Aside from Jesus no one ever has lived a sin-free life after being saved.  I can't say that this statistic is written down in any authoritative fashion, however, I don't think I'd need to.  The most godly people I've ever known sin occasionally.  Granted, as we become more sanctified by God's grace and are practiced at responding in godliness the inclination to sin should become less and less. 

Even a sinner can be justifed, if they just get on their face before God and admit their need for deliverance.

Well, I'm not sure what you're saying here.  In my opinion, only sinners need justification by God's grace.  I don't believe the justification they receive is because they "get on their face before God" and admit anything, but that is another discussion.

But a sinner who thinks they can be justifed with God because they are not as much of a sinner as others is really little more than a hyprocrate.

Okay.  I agree. 

It is time to go beyond reform, and the reformation. We need to actually become a new creation in Christ. We can not patch up the old, we need to put off the old and put on the new.

I'm not sure what the reformation has to do with "putting off the old and becoming a new creation in Christ" but I agree we definitely need to strive to do it.

God bless.

 

[SemperReformanda]

JohnR7-

I hope you won't mind my answering your question to Reformationist.

Your question is flawed, I think, because it's based on some pretty inaccurate historical assumptions. First of all, the Pilgrims were Puritans. They were part of the organized dissent against the established Anglican Church back in England. Persecution led them to Holland and ultimately to America. The Puritans were likewise Dissenters (Or Independents) who split away from the corrupted Established church. Which is where the Congregationalists (what you called the Congressional church) and the Presbyterians came from. The Pilgrims were merely a group of Puritans, not a seperate strain of people.

Further, as I've just shown, neither believed in working within a system once it was unredeemable. Which is why they were Independent, and why the Congregationalists and Presbys adhere to the Westminster Confession rather than the Anglican 39 Articles (though I think the Articles are well thought-out as well, this is just to make the point that they DID make a break.)

 

[SemperReformanda]

You said:  "Anyways, I was wondering, how do you reconcile the teaching of Jesus that we should seperate ourselves and come out from among them. With the attitude of the reformation that we can work within the existing system to reform it?"

Here is another breathtaking historical inaccuracy. The Reformation was the ORIGIN of the Evangelical/Protestant world. Many thousands of Huegenots, Dutch Reformed, Swiss Reformed and Scottish Presbyterians died fighting to free themselves from the yoke of Rome. Far from staying within the system, they exited it in order to preserve the practice and purity of God's church. They were called Reformers because they were re-establishing theBiblical faith and removing the corrupting accretions of Rome. It's pretty... interesting... to watch you criticize a group that sacrificed so much to give you the very perspective from which you criticize them.

That said, Reformed Christians DO believe in engaging the surrounding culture rather than hiding from it. We're called to be salt and light in a dying world. That means permeating the world. One of the things I see Reformed Christians doing very well is reaching out to groups that mushy-middle evangelicals usually lack the guts to go to-- intellectuals, "artsy" people, homosexuals, and others. Paul engaged the Greeks at Mars Hill, the center of their intellectual world at the time. We should be doing the same.

A Reformed Christian went not long ago to Scotland and watched a street evangelist haranguing people on the sidewalk. He was standing in the shadow of St. Andrews cathedral. It is the central pulpit of Scotland, and a Liberal preaches there now.

To put it in perspective, when John Knox arrived in Scotland he prayed "Give me Scotland or I die." And he set his sights on preaching from St. Andrews. He was successful in this, and ended up Reforming the whole nation of Scotland.

Modern Evangelicals, sadly, are too often willing to be the mad street preacher rather than a John Knox. We happily surrender the institutions of our land to the ungodly, and are content to stand on the side protesting with our little placards.

Just a few thoughts.

 

[SemperReformanda]

You said: "It is time to go beyond reform, and the reformation. We need to actually become a new creation in Christ."

I think everyone here would certainly agree with that. But it's completely irrelevant to the historical use of the word "Reform" and "Reformation." You're talking about individual salvation, while these terms refer to conforming the doctrine and worship of the Church ever more closely with the Scriptures. Individual salvation is very much a matter of a "new creation" in Christ. The church, however, is not. It's been around for about 2000 years now in its present form. We don't need a "new creation" of the church, but we need always to be consciously holding fast to the true faith and eliminating anything which would adulterate her purity as the bride of Christ. That's where "reform" comes in.

Unless you're somehow saying that the Body of Christ is so corrupted that we need to chuck it and start over? That would be an interesting allegorization of the passage you paraphrased, but you would be on your own on that, I think.

 

[JohnR7]

(( It's pretty... interesting... to watch you criticize a group that sacrificed so much to give you the very perspective from which you criticize them.))

Are you being critical of me for being um "critical"? Interesting.

 

[SemperReformanda]

JohnR7-

No, actually I'm being critical of you for lobbing attacks at people without doing your research first.

What is...interesting... is that you are basically the theological equivalent of those people who live in the United States, enjoy all the blessings and freedoms of the United States, yet denounce that country at every turn as something wicked.

The very reason that YOU are outside of the corrupt "system" and able to freely criticize another Christian denomination is because the Reformers and Puritans had the stones to fight their way to freedom.


That is why it is interesting.

 

[SemperReformanda]

JohnR7-

Also, your basic premise about the relationship of the Puritans to the Indians is flawed. Far from the Pilgrims being the ones who reached out tot he Indians, David Brainerd, a "Puritan" (as if the Pilgrims weren't Puritans or something?) was the first missionary to the Indians.

His diary is one of the basic texts for anyone learning about early missionary work, and helped spark missionaries like Hudson Taylor and William Carey.

Further, this idea that the Puritans of New England somehow sparked Humanism is just a breathtaking inaccuracy. Humanism PREDATED the entire Protestant Reformation. Its origins are in the Renaissance, and as a matter of fact, Erasmus (the great Humanist), was a persistant critic of the Reformers.

Anyway, I've tried to help you clarify your position with a great deal of new information. I'm really hoping you'll be able to return soon and give a full response, rather than the 2-line rebuttal you offered up earlier.

Soli Deo Gloria,
John

 

[JohnR7]

((SemperReformanda))

If you do not put a little bit less acid in your ink, then I am going to put you on ignore. Thanks, JohnR7

 

[SemperReformanda]

JohnR7-

You mentioned "acid" in a message to me.  I'm not sure what acid has been in my post, unless disagreement itself has a high PH?  Nothing I've said is a critique of you PERSONALLY.  I've merely sought to point out a few inaccurate conclusions you've drawn from history.  Studying Reformational and Puritan belief and practice has been a great blessing to me.  But it took me getting past this caricature that is drawn of these people before I could look at them with any sort of objectivity. 


The truth is that the Puritans were among the most sold out of Christians in history. Far from the aping that modern evangelicalism does with our culture, they sought to transform their world, and bring it ever closer in line with the Word of God. We've segmented our faith into a narrow little box. The Puritans (including the Pilgrims), sought to apply godliness to all aspects of life.

Here's a cool quote from a John Piper book I've been reading-- "Let the Nations Be Glad", probably the best book I've read on missions in years.

"'All the nations.. shall come and bow down before thee, O Lord, and shall glorify thy name (Psalm 86:9)' This is what gripped the Puritan mind and eventually gave birth to the modern missionary movement in 1793. William Carey was nourishd on this tradition, as was David Brainerd and Adoniram Judson, John Paton, David Livingston and a host of others who gave their lives to reach the unreached peoples of the world. The modern missionary movement did not arise in a theological vacuum. It grew out of the great Reformation tradition that puts the sovereignty of God square in the center of human life. In the warfare of world missions God bares his arms and triumphs for his glory."

Now, once again, do you have anything to say in response?  I'm seeking dialogue, which requires a chain of stimulus and response and counter-response in order for it to take place.  I'm honestly interested in hearing your thoughts.

 

[TheBear]

Originally posted by JohnR7
((SemperReformanda))

If you do not put a little bit less acid in your ink, then I am going to put you on ignore. Thanks, JohnR7

Acid? I did not read it that way.

How about your own 'acid' to another member?

You sure have a long way to go about saying something. Why don't you just get to the point of what your wanting to say and develop it from there?

If it is a Bible truth that you have discovered, I do not need to walk with you every step of the way on your path to discovery. Just share the Bible truth with us that God has shown to you. Thanks, JohnR7

John

 

[JohnR7]

Why would I want to be critical of the Pilgrams? I live right next door to a Pilgram church. In fact the way things are situated here, sense my house seperates them from their parking lot, a lot of people think that this is the parsonage. They get kinda a freebe out of me, because I keep an eye on things for them, and also, I plant a lot of flowers so things look good around here. There are some people in my family who seem to think we can trace our family line back to one of the origional pilgrams to come over here to Amerian. Not on the Mayflower, but one of the ships that came over with the Mayflower. They claim we are a decendant of one of his "many children that come over later."

What we do know for sure is that both of my grandmothers were daughters of the revolution. We even have family members that still live on land here in the western reserve, that was given to them for fighting in the war against england.

The Library at the University here is named after my mom's side of the family, because one of my great grandparents was one of the origional mayors of the city, one of the founding fathers, and he donated the land for the library and also he donated the land for the city museum here.

I could go on, but I think the point I am trying to make is that I do not really need to go outside of my own family to be grateful that we "enjoy all the blessings and freedoms of the United States".

 

[Rafael]

Jesus did walk this earth without sin because He didn't inherit it from Adam. His father was the Holy Spirit, so his inheritance was not the fallen nature of Adam. He was the new Adam - born without the nature of sin.
By nature, inherited from our father Adam, we sin, but are given a new nature in the rebirth and baptizm of the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless, we are in spiritual battle and warfare against our own flesh and the temptations to our flesh in this world. Again, I like the living Bible's version of Gal. 5:17:
"For we naturally love to do evil things that the Holy Spirit tells us not to do; and the good things we want to do when the Holy Spirit has His way with us are just the opposite of our natural desires. These two forces within us are constantly fighting each other to win control over us, and our wishes are never free from their pressures." Paul complained of this, also, in Romans 7:18-24 and concludes that his deliverance from his body of death would be through the Savior Jesus Christ and the blood of the lamb.

 

[SemperReformanda]

JohnR7-

Thank you for your kind response! Your family heritage is certainly one to be proud of. But I think you missed the point I was making. I wasn't calling your patriotism into question, I was drawing an analogy. My point is that you were basically blaming the Reformed view, and the Puritans in particular, for most of today's modern societal ills. I was pointing out to you that most of what you likely hold dear in your faith-- salvation by grace through faith, the sufficiency of the Word, and the role of the Holy Spirit in salvation are part of your view largely because the Reformers restored them in the active practice of the Church. They are theologically your "country", so to speak, if you're an Evangelical Christian.

The Reformed worldview is the one which most consistently and effectively challenges the fallen world. The Puritans applied this Christian/Reformed worldview more consistently than virtually any group in history. Consequently, the world HATES the Puritans, and slanders them at every turn. It's just always sad to see fellow Christians failing to look past the lies and think for themselves about things.

People like to talk about America's Christian heritage. And that is a good thing. But they usually speak about it in the vaguest terms. The fact is, America's Christian heritage is largely a Calvinist/Reformed/Puritan one. Fully 2/3 of the people living in America at the time of the Revolution were affiliated with a Reformed Church. All but one of the colonels of the Continental Army were Presbyterian.

People who reject Calvinism without even a fair hearing are cutting themselves off from their roots, and passing by a great source of Biblical and Christian insight. A great place to start if a person is ever interested in exploring the faith and practice of the Puritans would be "A Quest for Godliness" by JI Packer.

Anyway, it's been nice talking with you. Take care.

 

[Reformationist]

SemperReformanda,

Thanks for the insight you have shared with us.  You have truly done your homework and I look forward to reading, and learning from, more of your posts in the future.

God bless.

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by SemperReformanda I was pointing out to you that most of what you likely hold dear in your faith-- salvation by grace through faith, the sufficiency of the Word, and the role of the Holy Spirit in salvation are part of your view largely because the Reformers restored them in the active practice of the Church.

I really don't pay to much attention to that stuff. I tried to look into what different men were saying about the Bible, but it got to be to difficult to sort the truth out from the error. So I just went back to reading my Bible and being lead by the Holy Spirit.

The pastor at the church I attend, tells us not to take his word for anything. But take everything he says to the word of God and check it out for ourselves.

You can not teach truth, you have to work with the Holy Spirit to help people discover it for themselves.

If we want to witness to people we need to know what God is speaking to their heart. Then we can speak the same thing to their ears. It will be a confirmation for them that what we are telling them is of God. Because they have heard it from God themselves. They just know it to be true.

 

[SemperReformanda]

JohnR7-

Thanks for your response!

"I really don't pay to much attention to that stuff."

You actually do seem to pay SOME attention to it, since your criticism of the Puritans was what started our entire correspondence and acquaintanceship. As for "not paying attention to that stuff," I can understand the romantic appeal of a man and his Bible, alone against the elements. There is a certain rugged individualism in it that appeals to our character.

Unfortunately, it doesn't accord with the Biblical model, in my opinion. The notion that Sola Scriptura means me alone in my prayer closet, utterly segmented from the rest of Christendom is a novelty of the past 100 years.

Christianity is a covenantal religion. It is an organic religion in which all the believers are bound together in one covenant under God. We all abide together in one vine, and the various members all make up one body-- the Church. When we read the Bible, it is as part of this great corporate body, this "great cloud of witnesses."

That is not to say that we shouldn't emulate the Bereans--we absolutely should evaluate whatever a teacher tells us and make sure it lines up with the Bible. BUT, we actually have to give ear to a teacher before we can evaluate him. The Body is one, but the gifts are various. God has given some men the gift of teaching, and that is a gift to the ENTIRE Body. One individual part doesn't have the right to say, "I reject that gift, I don't need any help understanding the Word."

Wisdom is found in a multitude of counsel. And perspective is gained by studying from thinkers of various periods. There are many things that we take for granted which are totally at best a minority position within historic Christianity. Does that mean it's wrong? Not always, but it should give us humility as we search the Word.

Further, we're living in one of the most sadly shallow periods that Evangelical Christianity has known. Barely a majority of Evangelicals can name all 4 Gospels. Less than half believe in absolute truth. As a matter of fact, Barna researchers have said that the average Liberal of the '50s knew more of the Bible than the average Fundamentalist of today.

All this to say that there are great spiritual riches to be discovered in reading the thoughts, songs and prayers of those who have gone before us. God has gifted the Church with many wise teachers, and most of them are dead.

 

[SemperReformanda]

If we want to witness to people we need to know what God is speaking to their heart. Then we can speak the same thing to their ears. It will be a confirmation for them that what we are telling them is of God. Because they have heard it from God themselves. They just know it to be true.

Amen! This is exactly what the Puritans and Pilgrims would have said... Being solid Calvinists, they believed that men were dead in their sins, and that only God could change a sinner's heart. They believed, as I do, utterly and completely that salvation is a work of the Holy Spirit in the sinner's heart. Just as the Holy Spirit opened Lydia's heart in the Book of Acts to believe the Gospel which was spoken to her.

Good talking with you!

--John